The 4 Sea, 1 Trop, 1 Bayou + Forest/Swamp setup favors the Savannah much more as the point of that build is to fetch out a forest and then just keep fetching up underground seas vs wasteland. Thus you want to max out on fetches that get Forest and underground sea. Keep in mind however that one of the concessions Lejay and myself did with that manabase is not running any strixes or hymns, as they are uncastable with a basic forest.
Furthermore, I don't agree that Liliana is bad in multiples. If you have a manabase without wasteland i think it's perfectly reasonable to max out on that type of card. The new legend rule + that you can discard liliana to liliana +1 makes running 3-4 pretty unproblematic.
I overstated how bad 4 Lilianas is in general - she's great in midrange mirrors as well, though a touch expensive to go all-in on in Delver matchups - but with Talonhunter's expected meta I don't think 4 is correct. There's too much fast combo for her to be much good and the early interaction Thoughtseize provides is especially important. That being said, I'm on a heavy Planeswalker list right now (3 Liliana/2 Jace) since my local is amenable to it, but it's not suitable everywhere all the time.Originally Posted by LarsLeif
You may be right about not getting too much value out of the Null Rod but it went the extra distance. Shutting down the Mox Diamond set him back quite a bit. If you don't have something to take out for this or if you're on the draw it may be a back card to bring in.
Hey all,
Thanks to your guys input and the info available from this thread I went 2-1 at the first event I've played with the deck. I beat tin fins, UW Show and Tell and lost to Alluren combo. My list that I settled on was:
Land (22)
1x Bayou
1x Breeding Pool
1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Lumbering Falls
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tainted Wood
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
Sorcery (9)
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Creature (14)
2x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
Instant (12)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
Planeswalker (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
1x Disfigure
1x Dismember
3x Duress
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Krosan Grip
1x Leyline of the Void
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge
Just wanted to sincerely thank you guys for being patient with a new player with a budget deck variant. After tonight, I'll be prioritizing Wastelands as my next purchase. Ghost quarters felt really bad :X.
How can I compete against lands?
Whats our main strategy?
What do you board in and board out?
Im on discardless list
This was discussed on the last page.
Basically board goyfs and visions out, MMs and GY hate etc in.
OK I'm going from memory here because my notes are at home, but I went 4-3-1 at SCG Jersey with a MD discard version:
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Ob Nixilis, Re-ignited
1 Scrubland
R1: 1-1-1 against Shardless. What a way to start the day, all three games ended up in a draw-go battle and despite drawing a LOT more cards than him, I couldn't close the games out fast enough and neither could he.
In: 1 Ob Nixilis, 2 Disfigure, 1 Nihil Spellbomb
Out: 4 Force of Will
R2: 2-0 against Miracles. I think this is a good matchup for us by a very thin margin, but I think my opponent was new to the deck and made a few big mistakes. The biggest being stacking a Top wrong and attempting to stop a lethal attack by drawing a Mentor instead of the Terminus that was the next card down!
In: 1 Ob Nixilis, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Thoughtseize
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Jace
R3: 2-0 against MUD. Piece of cake, I did what Shardless does (Goyf + Deathrite him to death) and he did what MUD does (draw lots of ramp and no gas and lose to his own deck). A friend of mine plays MUD and said I didn't need to prepare against this matchup because my odds of encountering it were so low.
In: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 1 Ancestral, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 I can't remember. This board plan is wrong, I probably should cut some number of Decays instead.
R4: 2-0 against BUG Delver. I can't remember this match too well but I don't recall feeling threatened at any point. They can't come back from a resolved Vision.
In: 2 Disfigure
Out: 2 Hymn to Tourach
Interesting plays:
- With a Goyf on board, I attacking into a Gurmag Angler with a Shardless Agent. It immediately put his suspicions up and he lets it through. The next turn I draw & cast a Strix and attack with the Goyf (currently a 4/5). He blocks with the Angler, and I Abrupt Decay the Strix to turn the Goyf into a 6/7 and kill the Angler. It was game over after that.
R5: 2-1 against Grixis Delver. I think I got a bit next levelled here, as I was very careful to play around Stifle and Wasteland, but never saw either of those cards so maybe he wasn't running them. Game 1 I got run over by Bolts and Elementals, but post-board the deck runs so many sweepers that Young Pyromancer was useless and I could save all my removal for Anglers.
In: 2 Disfigure, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
Out: 2 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Force of Will
R6: 1-2 against Grixis Painter. I had NO idea what to do against this deck, as he fetched some blue and red sources (OK so maybe Omni or Sneak or Delver), then a bunch of un-identifying artifacts, then Tezzeret out of nowhere? It wasn't until I saw the Painter that I realized what was happening. This guy ended up in 11th place so he clearly knew the matchup more than I did. Game 1 I managed to beat him down with a fast Goyf as he failed to draw into his combo parts or Bridge until it was too late, but Game 2 I couldn't get a threat to stick and he Tezzerated me out, then Game 3 he milled me
Interesting plays:
- Game 2, I had an opening hand with both Null Rod and Meddling Mage on the play, and had to decide which to cast first. I opted for the Null Rod, and the next turn he drops an Ancient Tomb, Painters for blue, and Pyroblasts it. He told me it wouldn't have mattered, as if I'd cast the Mage naming a combo piece he'd have just discarded it and brought it back with a Welder. In retrospect, I could've cast the Mage for Pyroblast, then cast Null Rod on T3. Not a perfect solution, but definitely better.
- Game 3, he has an Ancient Tomb in play. I Thoughtseize him on Turn 2 and see Great Furnace, Blood Moon, Painter, and Grindstone. I picked the Painter and he drew into a Welder to turn his two artifact lands into his combo anyways. He never even cast the Blood Moon, but considering how easy it is for him to get artifacts out of his GY, it should've been the pick anyways.
R7: 0-2 against Elves. He turn 3'd me the first game and turn 4'd me the second. Both games I had the opportunity to Deluge two creatures away (or two + a Dryad), but I thought he'd be able to come back from that so I held off to get more the next turn. Big mistake: this matchup is bad enough that any 2-for-1 is worth it, just to slow them down a bit and increase your chances of drawing another sweeper.
In: 2 Disfigure, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal, 1 Golgari Charm
Out: 2 Jace, 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Ancestral Vision, 1 Sylvan Library
R8: 1-2 scoop against Miracles. We ended up going to turns and I conceded to avoid spite-drawing us both out of day 2 contention.
In: Same as Round 2
Highlights:
- Night of Souls' Betrayal and Toxic Deluge are great cards against any decks trying to go wide (Mentor Miracles, Young Peezy).
- Sylvan Library was excellent, it has great synergy with Shardless/Strix and you can usually afford the 4 life at least once.
- Ob Nixilis, Re-ignited is THE NUTS. Seeing your opponent go, read the card, then go
is amazing. Can't be Decayed, can't be Pyroblasted, draws you cards with a +1, ultimates 3 turns after you cast him, and the emblem shuts down any deck you'd bring it in against. It's perfect and has earned a permanent slot. Ultimate it right away when you can, an extra
Lowlights:
- Myself missing a LOT of Ancestral triggers over the course of the day.
- Hymn to Tourach underperformed, it was never what I wanted to cast on turn 2 and almost never what I wanted to Cascade into.
- I don't like Disfigure but I feel like the board needs more spot removal and there's no great option. Dismember? Murderous Cut? Swords? I'd like to try Dead Weight because the permanence is relevant against decks running Angler and opposing Goyfs. And it's another enchantment to feed your own Goyfs.
- Getting lost on the drive back and the 9 hour drive turning into 12 hours.
Changes I'm going to make:
Maindeck: -2 Hymn, +1 Ancestral Vision, +1 Painful Truths. One of my travel group was on a BUG Delver list running 4x Truths and he said it was by FAR the best card in his deck. I think it's worth trying.
Sideboard: -1 Scrubland, +1 Savannah (with the corresponding fetch changes between Mistys and Deltas). You were all correct about the fetch order, and without main deck Hymns I don't need more black), -2 Disfigure, +2 Dead Weight, and I'd love to find room for a 2nd Toxic Deluge but I'm not sure what to cut.
Last edited by PhyrexianLibrarian; 12-03-2015 at 05:26 PM.
What do you think about a oneoff Tasigur in a leejay build? Is it not worth it as he cant be cascaded into?
Skickat från min iPad med Tapatalk
I'd definitely consider it in the sideboard in the Notion Thief/mirror-breaker slot, in a long game you shouldn't have any problem casting him and you'll be able to take full advantage of the milling. It's in line with the deck's game plan, but I wouldn't main deck it. I feel like in Game 1 you want to maximize your potential cascades, imagine how bad it'd feel to send Tasigur to the bottom.
I have to say it:
x2 dark confidant much better than x2 b strix .
Test them.
Confidant doesn't trade with Delver.
Or hold back Goyf/Angler
From nothing came teeth.
Pros of Strix:
- flies
- better at blocking
- draws you a card right away
- artifact for Goyf
Pros of Bob:
- draws removal away from DRS/Goyf
- draws you more cards than Strix IF it survives two turns
I know cards are better than life, but I think Bob's draws costing you an average of 2.25 life per card could actually make a difference over a long game. Between Strix, Jace, Shardless, Ancestral, and whatever else you're running, not having enough cards doesn't seem like a problem.
Has anyone else felt a really steep increase in bad matchups lately? Like, everyone is metagaming against us and we are way easier to metagame against than Miracles. Examples: Lands, Burn, Storm (not the worst but certainly not "happy" to face it), UR Price of Progress Snapcaster Mage.dec
I have actually been having a pretty hard time vs the Grixis stifle variants too, they just get so far ahead and go so wide. In the good old days we could just play a liliana eventually and she would at least kill a good creature. These new grixis decks can just laugh at liliana but she is still a necessity because of Angler.
That's where innovation comes in. The thing about BUG ('Sultai'), is that it grants access to pretty much any tool needed to handle a particular problem. I'm not sure that you'd necessarily want to gear your sideboard too much to beat any one particular matchup that you mentioned, but the tools are there:
-Burn and UR Delver struggles against Chill. One copy should slow them down enough to get ahead with the help of DRS + Goyf, and multiples might just shut them off of playing spells. Try to avoid getting blown out by PoP by fetching your Basic lands when possible, or at least leave up a Wasteland to go after your own lands if necessary. Tarmogoyf outsizes most removal spells these decks run and is especially important in these matches.
-Lands requires some amount of graveyard hate to deal with Loam + (to a somewhat lesser extent) Punishing Fire. You also want to play carefully so as to avoid a blowout against Marit Lage (leave your Wastelands up, consider running some number of Submerge. Pithing Needle is a catch-all answer available to BUG, but you can also consider running a Tsabo's Web if Lands becomes especially prevalent. Some games you can just land a couple Goyfs, Force their relevant spells and race them.
-Storm: are you playing SB discard spells? Meddling Mage? Ethersworn Canonist? Even if you don't want to splash white, there's the option of Arcane Laboratory. Deathrite also does a good job of cutting off Past in Flames.
-Grixis/Mentor -- ok, tokens do invalidate Liliana, but BUG has access to plenty of options of wiping out 1/1s -- Golgari Charm, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, Night of Soul's Betrayal, Darkblast (to an extent), Illness in the Ranks, Toxic Deluge, etc. You want some sweepers in the SB for sure. Goyf is still problematic for decks who run Red for their primary removal spells.
If it's to the extent that BUG is just being hated on super-hard in your local, perhaps its time to put it away for a while and run a different deck. You also can shift from running the midrange version and instead go tempo as BUG Delver -- a stronger deck against some of the archetypes you mentioned and can play a similar midrange strategy with the right sideboard configuration.
Just wanted to add to these two points:
Against Storm, Phyrexian Revoker (generally naming LED) is amazing, especially when coupled with your discard and Graveyard hate. Alternatively, I had a fair bit of success with Thorn of Amethyst against Omnitell, TES, and ANT during the Dig Through Time era.
I really haven't had a problem against the Pyromancer and Mentor decks. They can make a ton of creatures, but Liliana's +1 is still relevant game 1 (since it effectively consumes a token-making opportunity) and it takes a whole lot of tokens to attack into even a pretty anemic board presence of DRS+Agent. I feel reliably favored against them, even if the Liliana lock isn't quite as hard as it is against something like RUG. This may also be because I'm running additional MD removal (2 Dimir Charm, 2 Strix, 2 Liliana, 4 Decay) so Pyromancer and Mentor tend to not survive as long as they might against someone who has less spot removal or is running more discard (I'm running none), and therefore get out of hand less often for me.
So, my team mate continued his "An Eye on Legacy: Shardless" series and wrote some sideboard plans and matchup analysis.Nice job! We heve the same point of view. (just not sure about the duress against RUG, i don't like discard in this MU)
I'm waiting for sideboarding plans and match-ups in your next article
You can find it at: https://bordifies.com/articles/an-ey...-sideboarding/
Kind regards,
screallix
Granted, my board is a bit different, but I would never board out both Deluges against Miracles. It's your best out to a resolved Mentor, even better than Decay as it wipes the slate clean and lets you save the Decays for the RIP and Counterbalance (which they'll try to bait out beforehand, if they're anything like my opponents). And CMC3 is more awkward for them to try and Counterbalance. I can see cutting one, but I'd rather have one than the fourth discard spell for sure.
I've actually started to cut Force of Wills instead, since they have a much smaller number of must-counter threats now that some don't run Entreat at all.
Edit: Cutting both Deluges against RUG Delver because life points matter, but bringing in 3 Thoughtseizes?
Can u post ur list please?Granted, my board is a bit different, but I would never board out both Deluges against Miracles. It's your best out to a resolved Mentor, even better than Decay as it wipes the slate clean and lets you save the Decays for the RIP and Counterbalance (which they'll try to bait out beforehand, if they're anything like my opponents). And CMC3 is more awkward for them to try and Counterbalance. I can see cutting one, but I'd rather have one than the fourth discard spell for sure.
I've actually started to cut Force of Wills instead, since they have a much smaller number of must-counter threats now that some don't run Entreat at all.
Edit: Cutting both Deluges against RUG Delver because life points matter, but bringing in 3 Thoughtseizes?
It's on the last page, the big difference is that I'm running less explicit combo hate (3 Mages, 2 Thoughtseize) in exchange for better game against what I expected to face at Jersey (Ob Nixilis, Golgari Charm, etc). In my local shop I don't see a whole lot of combo players, maybe one Elves guy and the occasional Reanimator but that's about it. On the other hand I see a LOT of Delvers, Miracles, Lands, D&T, and mirrors (and one guy on Enchantress). It's a pretty spiky crowd.
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