Tyler, under the current rules, you do not suffer the "tapped" issue anymore. You tap the first for mana, then you play the second. Just sacrifice the tapped one and you won't feel a thing. There are some corner cases in which it makes a difference, but even combined these corner cases have not even been a blip on my radar.
Flagstones are good for exactly the reasons Koke says. Unfortunately so are a lot of other lands, and you truly do not want to fall below the critical number of Plains for Blood Moon reasons.
I appreciate Mr. Hausmann stating that there is no best build. We can't even agree on the best color(s). Heck, I can't even agree with myself on this issue. This is the nature of playing reactive cards.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Ahah you're right. you can sacrifice the first one...Originally Posted by Finn
However, in the salvation thread, i'm pretty sure people had another argument for not playing flagstones (even 1).
I don't have the courage to search the whole thread for that :)
I tried a 4-Flagstones build for a while when I was on Mono-W, and I did win a few games off being able to play around Massacre, but overall barely noticed the difference. I don't remember ever losing a game on account of them. Even w/ a fairly greedy mono-w manabase, the chance that you won't have a plains when you need one is pretty low. And Blood Moon decks are not super popular or particularly good against D+T. Whereas we do see Massacre quite a bit.
I don't think the upside from deck thinning or the Cataclysm bonus is really that high either though. Cataclysm should usually win on its own anyway. I think once I was once upkeep waste-your-flagstone'd, which is a cute play to keep you off the mana for a turn, but obviously not something anyone wants to do regularly.
I do not hate this.... what matchups do you bring it in for? and how has it worked for you?
Which mono W or R/W version do u think its powerful? Which one would u play?
I vote for mono white.
It does the things you wanna do with Death&Taxes. With the red splash you often miss the aim of the deck.
Cockatrice: Deckerator
(
) Reanimator
Death&Taxes
While MonoW certainly has its appeal, I' prefer Imperial Taxes in the current meta. The complete lack of library manipulation aside from SFM really hurts MonoW imho.
RE: Flagstones
It depends on the build and sideboard. If you run Cataclysm or Armageddon and you are WW, multiple Flagstones of Trokair are quite good. I don't think I would run 4, but I could run 2 comfortably. The only time it is not excellent is against Bloodmoon decks, and even then, 2 are not likely to hurt you. It will be played at the same time as Rest in Peace in some games because you will want RiP against Tarmogoyf decks, and a deck like RUG definitely uses Wasteland, so I would really never go to 4.
RE: WW vs. Wr vs. Wg
First, it is to some degree a meta call. For example, they all have different strengths against Miracles, though I think Wr is better if Miracles is not running Monastery Mentor. Imperial Recruiter is much less good when they go wide and I don't think I want to bring in Sudden Demise in that match. Wg is very strong thanks to maindeck Sylvan Library, and Qasali Pridemage + Choke + Gaddock Teeg + Krosan Grip. On the other hand, multiple +1 tax effects with a lot of flyers and maybe some reconsideration of Spirit of the Labyrinth is overdue (Spirit is also a very strong maindeck card against Elves.)
I think it depends on your playstyle, what you are comfortable with and how you view optimal play. I'm a bit more of a grindy, cautious, lock-down kind of player. I'm happy waiting a long time to win, just to grind out minor advantages, so I like the slower WW builds and Wr.
I'm thrilled to see so many people championing the different builds, coming up with new ideas, and doing well at big tournaments. Legacy is very dynamic right now, which also makes it harder on us because we can't be the best deck against everything when there is so much to fight through.
Any match that I think will be a grind and I'm likely to be able to land it through potential countermagic. I often look at it and think it's worth bringing in - but sometimes can't afford the cut.
Some examples where I'd bring it in - the Mirror, Maverick, Merfolk, any Depths/Stage combo, Dredge etc
Played this deck for the first time last night. It was super fun and I regret not playing it before. How are you guys finding revoker right now? It felt somewhat underwhelming in my meta at least, just curious on what you guys think of it right now
As a public fan of Phyrexian Revoker, I will say that it usually is really good coinciding with the time in wich Delver decks are worse posicioned in the meta. Right now, the best Delver deck is Grixis Delver, and Revoker is not useless in this matchup because of the importance of DRS as a mana dork early in the game. Out of Delver decks, between the rest of tier decks, I do not find a matchup in wich Revoker is bad: against Miracles is one of our best cards at least first game, against Elves and Storm is, after StP/Jitte and Thalia respectively, our best tool to beat them without sideboard, and it is always good to stop planeswalkers and DRS vs Shardless BUG or dangerous equipments vs Stoneblade decks...
Unfortunately, there is no the amount of Sneak & Show we expected with the DTT ban, but I think that we still should run the full set of them at least in the mono-white version. As a mana denial deck, I do not like watch how my oponent is going to have 3 mana in his turn 2 (with DRS, Noble Hierarch or the omnipresent Mox Diamond) so I usually want to have one Revoker in my hand, I feel safer.
Revoker is absurd. Shuts off important creatures, planeswalkers, equipment, wipes like Deed and EE, Top, LED... So many uses. There are very few matchups where I think he's poor. I run 3 in Bloody Taxes, and I'm trying to find room for the 4th.
I know what Revoker does and why it's good. I'm the only person pretty much who played the card in deadguy ale. I'm just curious how you're finding it in the current meta.
Well I think you have your answer, at least from these two players.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
The only DtB that Revoker isn't good vs is RUG Delver, which is already one of our best matchups. Shutting off DRS is so important vs any deck playing the dude - and it's also the key hatebear vs Elves, Miracles, the mirror. When it's bad it feels like you're playing a limited card, but the % of matchups where it's bad in this meta probably isn't much different from the % of matchups where Thalia is bad.
Speaking of Thalia-is-bad matchups - for the mirror I *always* side out my Thalias before anything else. But I often encounter DnT players who still have them in g2/g3. Does anyone not side them out? It always seemed pretty obvious to me that you risk having a dead card if your opponent has one of their many Karakases and it's hard to predict which player is gonna be 'more taxed' by the effect before the game.
The thing is, the matchups where the opponent plays DRS you won't be able to keep them in check postboard with Revoker, because of all the sweepers they will run against you. Revoker is suboptimal against GB based decks because it just gives the element of blowout to your opponent since they can kill the Revoker anytime they want. And that's why I side out Revoker against BUG Delver and Shardless, aside from obvious useless matchups like RUG.
Revoker is awesome in game 1 where people don't run that many efficient answers to the guy, but postboard its utility diminishes exponentially.
Thalia's first strike is huge in the mirror, as it is against other creature based matchups like Goblins and Merfolk. Jitte on Thalia is one of the best plays you can make in the mirror, as long as they don't have active Karakas. And you do run 4 Wastelands to keep them in check. So I usually take 2-3 and leave 1-2, as there are other things to cut and not that many things to bring in.
What do you consider other things to cut? The R/W list has the Maguses, but pretty much every core card in the Mono-W list has utility in the mirror.
The Batterskull should be the first thing to cut, then Brimaz/Mindcensor/SotL if you run them in the maindeck, and then comes Thalia. But first you should consider what to actually bring in. Disenchant for sure, C. Judgment is a maybe and should be slightly easier to cast with the opponent siding out their Thalias, Containment Priest, Cataclysm if you're on the draw, and WLL if you have them. You will rarely have more than 4 sideboard cards to bring in against the mirror so it's rare to side out all the Thalias.
Does anyone else side out their Batterskulls? Sure it's the 3rd most relevant equipment, but in my experience these games are either over immediately (someone gets manascrewed, someone gets a jitte online) or, more often, go very long / get super boardstalled. For those games you want something to fetch with your late game Sfms, and you don't want a board state where they have their Skull and you don't have yours. And the germ getting flickerwisp'd or whatever isn't even that big a deal - usually in those games you'll have the mana to be hooking it onto things.
I have been playing creature-heavy SBs w/ the RW build splash, so I'm generally not short on things to bring in.
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