Congrats on the result!Originally Posted by ironclad8690
On MM, I agree, people overboard with it. I think its purpose is actually quite misunderstood. It's a high impact card specifically for combo matchups that allows you to attack on multiple angles for the builds with no discard MD since you're sacrificing G1 for better fair matchups.
The distribution of two drops (and their inclusion) is actually quite complex that ties into the manabase a lot. It's so important to be able to sequence T1 discard into either Hymn or MM postboard (if you run both. If there are no Hymns you want a Savannah in the board to fetch Sea > Sav and have all 4 colours). In your build you have a Misty Rainforest that doesn't fetch the Scrubland, which probably should be a Flooded Strand as it fetches Sea and Scrub to cast MM as well as discard. The Forest also looks super awkward as you can't cast Hymn or Strix off it G1, I assume it's then sided out vs all combo decks?
I also really don't understand not running a full set of MM, when did people start doing this? Unless there is something funky going on with SB tables I've missed, MM is a straight swap for goyfs vs combo. You can't afford to leave them in as you need to maximize your cascades off agents.
Hm, interesting, I usually leave 3-4 goyfs in vs combo because they are the fastest clock that we have, but I could certainly be wrong.
As for the 2 Meddling, I could see going up to 3 or 4 if you don't have any discard maindeck.
Basic forest stays in vs Blood Moon combo decks but comes out vs others for the Scrubland. Vs blood moon combo I board out the Tropical.
Hi all:
Just started playing Shardless in the last week and love it! I use to play RW Painter but ended up getting pretty bored with it.
I went 3-0-1 tonight in a 12 man tourney. Highlight of the night was when on turn 2 opponent casts Show and Tell, he reveals Emrakul, I reveal Shardless Agent. Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge where I hit him for 15 and kill Emrakul. I proceed to land a Sylvan library and Goyf and beat face for the win.
Anyways, I have been running 2 Sylvin Libraries and really love it. The CA is excellent and it sets up Shardless quite nicely as well.
Any thoughts on running 2 SL maindeck?
How do you mean "reveal Shardless agent"? You know the cascade only triggers when you cast the spell? If you put it in with SnT there is no cascade, but maybe you mean that you cast it on your turn. Also, what do you mean with "Cascade goes, Land and then Toxic Deluge"? Deluge costs 3 so it is not a valid cascade target, only spells with converted mana cost 2 or less (in the case of Shardless Agent) works.
Sylvan is very good, but poor in multiples and the cost of 4 life for an extra card is sometimes too much in some matchups. I recommend one.
Anyways, welcome to the deck! :)
Yeah... you lost that game, sorry. Cascade only triggers on casting, not entering the battlefield, so it doesn't work with S&T. And even if it did, you can't cascade into Deluge because it's not CMC < 3.
I'd also like to add, if "revealing from show and tell" actually cast anything your opponent would get a time walk trigger, which he definitely should not. Also, in the case of Toxic deluge, even it did have cmc < 3 the life paid is part of the cost which you cannot pay off of a cascade, so you'd only be able to cast deluge for 0.
Sorry for the amateur hour!
Luckily the guy I was playing is a buddy of mine.
What's the best number of wastelands? I usually see 2 or 3, not sure what's best
Kamus
Legacy Decks: Grixis Delver, Canadian Threshold, Patriot, UR Delver, Team America, Shardless BUG, Junk, Miracles, Jeskai Stoneblade, Esper Stoneblade, Deathblade, Bant, Grixis Control, ANT, Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Infect, Food Chain
Modern Decks: Infect, UR Delver, Grixis Delver, Jeskai Geist, Jund, Abzan, Blue Moon, Grixis Control, Esper Control, RUG Control, BUG Control, Jeskai Nahiri
I think the general consensus is that 2 is the "right" number, but having 3 has saved my butt countless times vs infect and lands. Some people are even playing 4 in the discardless lists, and I think that is fine too, I just like the discard.
I'm pretty happy with 3 as well. I'd have to cut my Creeping Tar Pit for the 4th, and I think the first Tar Pit is better than the 4th Wasteland.
I just began playing Shardless a couple of weeks ago, and I've played it at a couple of weeklies so far.
How do you guys feel about a Sylvan Library in the mainboard? Personally I love this card, and in my meta it's probably better than elsewhere because there's a ton of grindy matchups to have. I'm just unsure if I should cut it for a third Baleful Strix instead.
Also, opinions on 2 Jace over 1? It would be taking the same slot up as the Strix/Library I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong.
I'm just trying to see the reasons to play which cards over what. Pretty new to the deck, I'm usually on BUG Delver or Food Chain.
Does anyone have advice for beating Grixis Delver? I've been getting my teeth kicked in by that deck recently (while beating just about everything else) and it's starting to frustrate me a bit. The combo of being able to go wide with pyromancer plus huge with gurmag angler all while fucking with your mana base is pretty irritating. This is my list:
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Wasteland
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
2x Baleful Strix
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace the Mind Sculptor
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
1x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
4x Force of Will
SB: 15 singletons!
1x Notion Theif
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Arcane Laboratory
1x Golgari Charm
1x Duress (would be a Thoughtseize if I went to something like an SCG open but I've never ever ever seen Sneak and Show in my meta and I feel like Duress is superior in all other matchups)
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Pithing Needle
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Night of Soul's Betrayal
1x Disfigure
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Null Rod
Changes I'm considering is cutting the JVP main deck for a 3rd Strix and the Clique in the board for another Disfigure or a Toxic Deluge. Strix is such a hit or miss card though I dunno if I want to go up to 3.
From nothing came teeth.
Playing Grixis Delver for a long time, I can tell that the most annoying card Shardless brings from the sideboard is Golgari charm. They remove the army of tokens and the Pyromancers at the same time. Also killing the Clique/True-name that will be brought in from the board if possible.
I think you should try to up the count to 2 of the charms and perhaps add something like Go for the Throat or Murderous Cut (obviously you can't cascade into the second one, having it's up and downside right there).
Personally I'm not a fan of the Disfigure and would proberly run something stronger instead, like the GftT. But not being able to run Lightning Bolt maens you go to the next best thing availeble I suppose.
Night of Soul's Betrayal and Seal of Primordium would proberly the first on the list to ditch for better cards like the Golgari Charm. But then again, you are the Shardless player and proberly have good reason to play those cards.
Basicly what you want to do vs Grixis Delver is go fot the long run. Since Shardless is the card advantage machine of legacy, you should be able to grind out games having more value later in the game. Grixis can play fast-hitting with the Anglers and a small army of tokens. Sweep it and you'll be fine. Removal is key to beating Grixis.
Disfigure is way too good to cut. The first thing I'd do is cut Notion Theif. The card is hot garbage and a giant trap. I'd also cut JVP for either the 4th Visions or Sylvan Library. Not the biggest fan of Deed either, since it's mana intensive and you want to be playing to the board; another Deluge or Disfigure is probably better. Otherwise, your list looks fine for beating Grixis Delver, and I think it's by far the easiest Delver variant to beat. Recognize that they're the beatdown and hunker down on defense. Goyf is fantastic against them as they're usually bigger than Anglers and make most of their Pyromancer attacks awkward. How are you boarding for the matchup?
Edit: The biggest thing to do is maintain Deathrite superiority. If they can't mess with your goyfs effectively, you'll win in tje lomg run.
Last edited by btm10; 12-25-2015 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Clarification
Hey,
I currently play mostly BUG but also Grixis Delver from time to time and I was highly surprised to hear that you are having problems with beating that deck. Normaly I would say, that you are a favorite in this MU. Your mainboard is well equipped, even though I recently started running a basic island (you could cut either the 2nd Tropical or the Tar Pit) for the Delver-Decks which makes it much more unlikely for them to manascrew you, which is normaly one of their best ways to win. Just fetch for basics as much as you can even if you have to play slightly of curve or wait a turn. Same goes for stifle, just fetch when they make their play. Disfigure is a great card in this MU, I have 2 in my SB and never thought about cutting it. How are you sideboarding?
Against grixis delver I board out the FoW's and the Thoughtseize and bring in Golgari Charm, P Deed, Sylvan Library, Disfigure, Night of Soul's Betrayal. On the draw I also usually board out a Hymn and bring in Spellbomb just so I can keep the graveyard under control from a quick gurmag angler.
For what it's worth, I've always thought BUG is the easiest delver to beat. They're basically playing all of our good cards but without any of the card advantage and less of the mana denial and reach cards like bolt that make Grixis/RUG tricky.
From nothing came teeth.
I leave all of my Forces in in the matchup so I can fight over their offensive counters (particularly Stifle) while cutting discard for removal. Looking at your manabase again I'd cut a Tar Pit for an additional Dual or fetch as that will give you more consistent access to your mana early in the game. I don't like Deed since it's symmetrical and we're playing to the board in Delver matchups. Another Disfigure would be great.
Hrmm, I'll try leaving the Forces in for sideboarded games, since a couple people in my usual play group play grixis. Do you ever cut any of your planeswalkers in boarded games? They usually seem a bit slow, especially on the draw. Liliana is either really good or a complete joke depending on their draw.
From nothing came teeth.
I board Jace out first in that matchup since getting him Dazed, Pierced, or Blasted is usually a disaster, but always leave Liliana in. If you run out of slots to cut I start by adding Thoughtseize back in since you can use it early to make sure they don't have whatever your hand is weak to and aren't glutted at 2 mana. I probably find this matchup easier than most because I run 2 Dimir Charm and only 1 Thoughtseize main as ways to interact with combo, so I have 4 Decay, 2 Liliana, 2 Strix, 2 Charm, and a Toxic Deluge preboard...when I bring in Golgari Charm, Maelstrom Pulse, Night of Souls' Betrayal, and Disfigure.
Hey all, returning Shardless player after messing around with ANT for a few months, and I'm looking to update my list. I was running almost an exact 75 from Lejay a few months ago, and really enjoy the discardless main feel.
My main question is about manabase, more specifically how viable it is to run a basic forest if I swap in some Baleful Strix at the 2-drop spot. I need to grind out some games to test it but was wondering if anyone can lend some insight into the mana situation. Here's the list as it stands right now:
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Sylvan Library
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
1x Scrubland
4x Meddling Mage
3x Thoughtseize
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Leyline of the Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
All comments and critiques welcome, taking this to three tourneys over the next 2 months and expecting a little bit of everything.
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