[Primer] R/G Lands

[Cfetchcaviar]

Some Miracles builds play Daze, that's a deck I would bring in the hoser.

archaic lists play daze. back when dig was in.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I also advocate for Choke over Boil. Boil is a one shot, while Choke is a continuous silverbullet against a lot of decks when combined with ports.
For the "Choke is counterable" part, despite the fact that I don't play Boseiju, I think that it is possible to play around counters (ports again), or use Choke as a bait to ensure the resolution of a more important spell

You can't abrupt decay boil.

[Layalouhamesh]

@Gigapatrick

I recently watched some of your videos and I saw you tested Sylvan Library in your 75. What is your final impression about it?
I'm currently testing it instead of the last Manabond in the main, but I think I'm going to move it to the SB as a helping tool to find the hate I side in for game 2. It appears to be too slow for game 1 in my opinion.

have fun playing around FOW with your ports genius. Boil is excellent against miracles. lasting impact upon resolution, and the chance of being protected by boseiju is nice, but not the decider. 4 mana is not hard to get to y'all.

Yep, sure FoW is a problem, but with a 3 mana Choke, you can have a 4th to cast a Gamble after for instance (or do it in reverse depending on the spell you want to protect).
Anyway, FoW is 4 cards in a deck, I was more thinking of the more classical counters (Counterspell, Daze, Pierce...).
And an uncounterable Boil requires a Boseiju, which is a single slot in the deck considering that I (personally) would remove the Crops for game 2 against Miracles.

archaic lists play daze. back when dig was in.

Nope, the Monastery Mentor versions still play a few to easily buff the Mentor and keep pressure.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11011&d=262685&f=LE

You can't abrupt decay boil.

Neither Choke without 2 mana. If you play Abrupt Decay and we side in Choke, then it is at least a UGB deck, with a lot of duals and a manabase that is sensible to Wasteland.
Anyway, I'm not sure I would side in Choke against those decks. Aluren maybe?

[Cfetchcaviar]

Neither Choke without 2 mana. If you play Abrupt Decay and we side in Choke, then it is at least a UGB deck, with a lot of duals and a manabase that is sensible to Wasteland.
Anyway, I'm not sure I would side in Choke against those decks. Aluren maybe?

Yep, sure FoW is a problem, but with a 3 mana Choke, you can have a 4th to cast a Gamble after for instance (or do it in reverse depending on the spell you want to protect).
Anyway, FoW is 4 cards in a deck, I was more thinking of the more classical counters (Counterspell, Daze, Pierce...).

Decks which play abrupt decay play DRS and need only one mana and a certain 1/2 elf to cast it. In addition, they probably fetched up their BASIC lands to cast abrupt decay.
I agree that i would not bring in choke or boil in those match ups. their greedy mana base is easy for us to prey on even with a suite of basics.

Fringe arguments of maybe casting a gamble with the 4th mana, or faint a spell to have them counter it is just speculative BS.
Boil is an instant, I will untap with all my mana thank you very much.

Play around pierce by playing more lands and porting better on their turn, or porting during your upkeep to force something. Counter magic is easy to play around.

Nope, the Monastery Mentor versions still play a few to easily buff the Mentor and keep pressure.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11011&d=262685&f=LE

Nice, you've found one of those archaic lists i was talking about. Looks like it did well in a smaller, local shindig.
In the boarded games, (where we bring in our chokes and boils), they board out dazes. in addition, Counter balance become much better in the boarded games because the number of three drops is much higher than the number of four drops. If you were a little keen, in that same tournament, the lands player got 3rd. They lost to the miracle dude. Probably not because they was playing choke over boil, but because that match up is AWFUL.

This is a fringe archaic deck. I wouldn't count on playing around daze in miracles games.

Of course you board out crop rotations in miracles, but you keep gambles. gamble is very good for grabbing boseiju.

[gigapatrick]

On the topic of Choke Vs. Boil:

Building a Fortress #81

A situation arises during the second game in which I think Choke would definitely have been better than Boil.

[Cfetchcaviar]

On the topic of Choke Vs. Boil:

Building a Fortress #81

A situation arises during the second game in which I think Choke would definitely have been better than Boil.

Your mistakes with stage, port, and not utilizing your grips was a greater blunder than you just running out your boil so early. Sure choke would have been nice. They had 5 cards in hand. Maybe they had wear tear and the like. You also main phased your boil. What a damn waste. It's an instant, but the way you played it might as well play tsunami. . . .

[barcode]

Christ. Might as well play tsunami. . . .

Well... Can't get dispelled...and we get that sweet basic Forest value.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Well... Can't get dispelled...and we get that sweet basic Forest value.

The art is f***** sweet too. Flavor points

[barcode]

The art is f***** sweet too. Flavor points

Plus, you can get it in Beta.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Plus, you can get it in Beta.

Hnnnnng

[Rivfader]

Your mistakes with stage, port, and not utilizing your grips was a greater blunder than you just running out your boil so early. Sure choke would have been nice. They had 5 cards in hand. Maybe they had wear tear and the like. You also main phased your boil. What a damn waste. It's an instant, but the way you played it might as well play tsunami. . . .

Gigapatrick is doing us a favor by publicly showing his games, and it's easy to criticise in retrospect. A little more respect for his contributions might be in place.

[gigapatrick]

Your mistakes with stage, port, and not utilizing your grips was a greater blunder than you just running out your boil so early. Sure choke would have been nice. They had 5 cards in hand. Maybe they had wear tear and the like. You also main phased your boil. What a damn waste. It's an instant, but the way you played it might as well play tsunami. . . .

Agreed that I make mistakes but:

He used his wear tear on chalice as soon as he found it. If choke had been in play the game would have been long over I think.

Also what good targets did I have for grip? When he cast his first rip, I had no way of getting another loam going. Why use grip then? By the time he found wear tear for chalice, my grips were overloaded with a bunch of must deal with targets. The real problem was that grip could not hit jace. This was the card that won the game for him. If I have choke he never casts jace or at least nothing afterward.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Gigapatrick is doing us a favor by publicly showing his games, and it's easy to criticise in retrospect. A little more respect for his contributions might be in place.

you're confusing disrespect with criticism. He asked for responses in previous posts. Just delivering.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Agreed that I make mistakes but:

He used his wear tear on chalice as soon as he found it. If choke had been in play the game would have been long over I think.

Also what good targets did I have for grip? When he cast his first rip, I had no way of getting another loam going. Why use grip then? By the time he found wear tear for chalice, my grips were overloaded with a bunch of must deal with targets. The real problem was that grip could not hit jace. This was the card that won the game for him. If I have choke he never casts jace.

Pretty sure I saw cb on the board

[gigapatrick]

Pretty sure I saw cb on the board

No reason to waste a grip when he can't cast top through chalice. When he did cast top, I immediately k gripped counterbalance. He had another because he was brainstorming with jace a billion turns. My choice of how to use grip was not the problem. Boil not being choke was.

[Cfetchcaviar]

No reason to waste a grip when he can't cast top through chalice. When he did cast top, I immediately k gripped counterbalance. He had another because he was brainstorming with jace a billion turns. My choice of how to use grip was not the problem. Boil not being choke was.

Since they drew wear tear, it would not have mattered. However, grip on rip, grip cb, and that gamble is a very good line. Better than draw go which is what you did after you ran out the boil. That said, I love the videos and look forward to all the posts.

[Croprot]

With all this miracles talk can I ask if it's worth it to just main board the boseiju to try and steal game one from them?

[gigapatrick]

Since they drew wear tear, it would not have mattered. However, grip on rip, grip cb, and that gamble is a very good line. Better than draw go which is what you did after you ran out the boil. That said, I love the videos and look forward to all the posts.

No. i couldnt cast gamble through my own chalice and when he found wear tear for chalice he had two rips. Not to mention i also had to use two grips for two blood moons. The point is this: if i have choke then he either doesn't get to cast jace or barring that never casts any of the moons he finds with jace. After a long time he found a wear tear. If i have choke he probably can't cast both sides of it and wear by itself to get rid of choke is countered by chalice on one.

[Cfetchcaviar]

No. i couldnt cast gamble through my own chalice and when he found wear tear for chalice he had two rips. Not to mention i also had to use two grips for two blood moons. The point is this: if i have choke then he either doesn't get to cast jace or barring that never casts any of the moons he finds with jace. After a long time he found a wear tear. If i have choke he probably can't cast both sides of it and wear by itself to get rid of choke is countered by chalice on one.

post wear tear you could have. And they were playing fetch lands, so they could have casted it. Blood moon would not have been a problem if you didn't blindly run out the boil first chance you got

[Chatto]

With all this miracles talk can I ask if it's worth it to just main board the boseiju to try and steal game one from them?

I was thinking about MB Boseiju too, but didn't know what to cut. In the end I just settled for the SB.