All B/R update speculation.

[sjmcc13]

Dude wants to ban Depths. That's targeting Lands directly. Clearly he hates the deck.

Also, his notion that Wastelands is needed to keep Depths in check is laughable. And, Post & Depths are bad, but Cradle is just fine? A lot of personal bias going on there.

sorry, missed that one, guess I zoned out on to much of the "article"...

The whole premise of all these 'let's completely redefine the format' articles are based on the fact that the format is not what the author wants to play. Well why don't they go play something else rather than altering everything to be the way they personally want it to be?

Because there are cards they want to play that are not legal in those formats???

[Amon Amarth]

I get wanting to make Legacy more interesting but I'd rather unban than ban things. Legacy is boring. I'd rather have more stuff to play with than less. Also I think there is Modern, sounds like maybe Caleb should go play that. ;)

[Stevestamopz]

So how many posts was that before someone got it? Pretty embarrassing. Is The Source the most easily trolled online Magic community? Maybe there should be a poll thread about that.

Watching everyone here and on plebbit getting so assblasted about one article with ideas on the b/r list that will NEVER happen was very amusing.
Just replace guns with brainstorm/show and tell/led/any other derpy card and you all turn into the NRA.

It seems like everyone on this board wants Miracles hurt in some way, but will immediately tell you to fuck off to modern if you dare to suggest that you agree with any of Caleb's list... the irony being that without Miracles, Legacy would be just a souped up Modern. The sole existence of a hard control deck is what separates Legacy from Miracles.

Legacy | Modern
Elves = Affinity
Show and Tell = Twin
Jund = Jund
Burn = Burn
Storm = Storm
Infect = Infect
Delver decks = Delver decks
Belcher/Reanimator/Dredge = Amulet Bloom/Goryo's Vengeance/whatever other non-interactive combo deck there is.

Sounds to me like the people telling Caleb/me to fuck off back to Modern would actually be the ones to really enjoy Modern.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Show and Tell = Twin

I see what you are trying to say, but this is an inadequate comparison.

The article is nonsense, so why bother discussing it? This is how Donald Trump gets so much camera face-time-says something ridiculous and then continues saying it.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Crimhead]

It seems like everyone on this board wants Miracles hurt in some way, but will immediately tell you to fuck off to modern if you dare to suggest that you agree with any of Caleb's list... the irony being that without Miracles, Legacy would be just a souped up Modern.

I don't particularly want to see Miracles hurt, and I'm not even be of the (presumably) large demographic of people who like to play that deck!

But without arguing your questionable deck-to-deck analogies, I'll ask one question:

In "souped up modern", can you lock opponents out with Wastelands, Ports, Mazes, and Tabernacle; all the while setting up for an uncounterable, flying, indestructible, 20/20 for two mana?

[tescrin]

the irony being that without Miracles, Legacy would be just a souped up Modern. The sole existence of a hard control deck is what separates Legacy from Miracles.

That's just not true. Miracles also pins down combo pretty reasonably, making it much more difficult for Storm and Elves in particular, due to Terminus wiping out their means to winning before getting locked out (barring lucky hands or bad miracles hands.)

While I'm not on either side of the fence on it, let's not just lie to ourselves. Hard control like Lands would exist without Miracles, and if we dropped CB we'd probably still have a Miracles deck, but it'd be more aggressive.
___________

Also, I don't see how something like Tezzerator that attempts to lock you out before the win isn't hard control. They just put up chalices, bridges, and grave hate for a few turns and eventually beat you to death with Thopters, 5/5's, or Tezz Ults. There's also aggro loam, but I'm sure because it's GRx with PFire/Loam, it's the same deck yeah?

The fact that we separate into "Control" and "Hard Control" just to make your distinction is another laughable point. Jund is pretty much a control deck (15 removal, 7 of it recurring, the deck only runs on card advantage.) Shardless is pretty much a control deck (it's completely based on card advantage.)

These decks also tend to lose to Combo as you'd expect, and tend to be a beating against aggro, as the "Control" slice of the Rock Paper Scissors MU style would suggest they "should."

You require evidence for your point, and currently your point is garbage due to me being able to just simply throw out 3 hard control decks and a pair of regular control decks like nothing.
________

Just because Modern lacks every engine known to man doesn't mean legacy wouldn't still have Thopters, Loam, Pfire, Jace, and other heavy-handed control pieces. We'd likely revert to UW Stoneblade decks (which still do fine) without CB. Without Terminus we'd still have a similar version of the hard control, but with worse sweepers (varying it's set of MU percentages.)

It's absolute hyperbole to suggest that somehow, Miracles IS Legacy. Or.. if you think that "Miracles is Legacy", you're just admitting you think there's a problem.

[Crimhead]

The fact that we separate into "Control" and "Hard Control" just to make your distinction is another laughable point.

Control & Beatdown are better thought of as opposing roles which decks take in a match. These roles are fluid depending on the game state. I'm sure we've all read Who's The Beatdown.

Even control decks sometimes find themselves in a position where the opponent is in the control seat and the best plan is to apply pressure. The more difficult it is to muster that pressure, the "harder" the control deck. This usually relates to how many threats the deck runs (and how early they come into play).

For instance, when playing RUG Lands I am almost always the control deck. Decks like Shardless, Stoneblade, D&T (or Jund, I guess) can very easily "go aggro" against me. Decks like Miracles or Pox have a much harder time trying to put a clock on me - they are just not built to do that. The former are aggro/control decks, while the latter are hard control decks.

[GundamGuy]

I like how the DTB list keeps getting smaller over time as the diversity of the format is getting crushed under the might of the number one deck to beat 7 of the 12 months of the year (and the rest of the time it was the number 2 deck to beat...). [It might have been more if the DTB was keep updated every month in 2015...]

But yeah RUG delver... which didn't even make it into the DTB every month... is the real problem.

[Dice_Box]

I like how the DTB list keeps getting smaller over time as the diversity of the format is getting crushed under the might of the number one deck to beat 7 of the 12 months of the year (and the rest of the time it was the number 2 deck to beat...). [It might have been more if the DTB was keep updated every month in 2015...]

But yeah RUG delver... which didn't even make it into the DTB every month... is the real problem.

Remember, the bar to entry to get into the DTB section was raised at the beginning of last year from 3.4% to 4.6%. After that, yes the number of decks did decrease. The subfourm was designed to.

Edit:

In the end, my ideal format is actually just Modern with the more interesting and unique Legacy cards added in.

I think we can now drop all talk on the article's he writes. He was always open about his wants, but now we have all evidence needed to admit we do not see eye to eye with the man and leave him to his own musings.

Link: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...mprove-modern/

[GundamGuy]

Remember, the bar to entry to get into the DTB section was raised at the beginning of last year from 3.4% to 4.6%. After that, yes the number of decks did decrease. The subfourm was designed to.

Edit:

I think we can now drop all talk on the article's he writes. He was always open about his wants, but now we can admit we do not see eye to eye with the man and leave him to his own musings.

Link: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...mprove-modern/

Yeah, that is a valid point.

But I wasn't really looking at this time last year vis this time this year. I was commenting on the month to months shifts (using the same methodology). I noticed how the format expands some after a major shift (like earlier this year with the banning of Treasure Cruse, then again with the Banning of DTT.) and then constricts down to basically 4 decks and Miracles.

It's almost like Miracles should actually be called Death and Taxes since it's the only real constant...

[Dice_Box]

The data I have access to actually shows RUG Delver to be the most top heavy deck of the last few years. It held its place in the DTB section longer than any other deck from what I can tell. Miracles is just the latest to take the mantle of top dog these days like RUG did once. While I will admit it's a bitch to play against that's not really a banable offence.

[sjmcc13]

While I will admit it's a bitch to play against that's not really a banable offence.

Unfortunately there are some/many who see it as one. :(

[GundamGuy]

The data I have access to actually shows RUG Delver to be the most top heavy deck of the last few years. It held its place in the DTB section longer than any other deck from what I can tell.

I'm not exactly sure how you can say that... RUG Delver (or the various other names it appears under, Threshold UGR, Canadian Thresh) shows up right before the words "is out." in the DTB thread a lot.

Some numbers that I just put together.
RUG Delver Months in DTB: 10 of 21 [Since Jan 2014 when the methodology changed, 2 months were skipped in DTB]
Miracles Months in DTB: 20 of 21

RUG Delver Average Rank in DTB: 4.3
Miracles Average Rank in DTB: 1.6

Also just want to point this out... RUG Delver isn't currently a DTB by the DTB selection critera.

Sure you might have other data or a different way to look at it or measure. That's fine and that's not wrong... but this is where I am coming from when I say Miracles is unchallenged a top the decks to beat. Placing in the top 2 (it's lowest month was a 3 one time in early 2014...) month in and month out (while RUG was having a lot more variation... being in one month and out the next over and over again) tells me that Miracles is pretty much good in whatever meta, regardless of what else is going on in the format.... It's just the best deck... by a landslide.

While I will admit it's a bitch to play against that's not really a banable offence.

First: I think this is a disingenuous argument. By suggesting it's all about "bad feels" you can dismiss opinions as being emotional not rational... I personally enjoy the challenge of miracles every so often, it's a really grind game against the deck I play most of the time, where you have to know what really is worth fighting over...

Second: Do you remember Modern Eggs...?

Third: That's not why I think it's bannable. The fact that it's been the top deck or the second best (going by DTB info) deck for 19 consecutive months (soon to be 20 I'd wager...) and wins in whatever meta you put it in... including meta's that drop RUG delver out of the DTB.... that maybe we should honestly evaluate if it Miracles approaching the point of being a problem.

[Dice_Box]

I was talking long term, not just the past year. If you look over the history of Legacy for the last 5 or so years, Delver puts Miracles well and truly to shame. If you want to go back further, Goblins ran around with the format for longer still.

If you want to snap just the last 12 months then fine, nothing touches Miracles but that's a disingenuous scale when the format is more than a decade old. Miracles is just the latest holder of a well worn and not often passed on crown: "Most popular deck in the format".

As for Modern eggs, it was banned for the same reason given for Shahrazad. While I will agree they are not fun to play against, it was issues of tournament constrains that cost these cards. If a card could be banned for giving feel bads, I would own a set of Workshops worth considerably less than they do right now. Because that deck is hell and even with Chalice taking a hit, it's still among the very top of the Vintage tiers.

[btm10]

If you want to snap just the last 12 months then fine, nothing touches Miracles but that's a disingenuous scale when the format is more than a decade old. Miracles is just the latest holder of a well worn and not often passed on crown: "Most popular deck in the format".

This is really the crux of the matter. Miracles' success is impossible to disentangle from the fact that it's a very popular deck that is also quite powerful. Add in the fact that it's one of the least expensive "teir 1" decks to build (there are some successful lists that only run 3-5 duals) and has both a high floor and high ceiling for play skill (i.e., it has a large differential between how well good and bad players will do with it, but CounterTop + Terminus also gives just as many free wins as Delver + Wasteland) so a lot of people are drawn to it for those reasons as well. Europe seems to have already passed peak Miracles based on TCDecks, and the European meta is usually a good leading indicator for the US meta.

[GundamGuy]

I was talking long term, not just the past year. If you look over the history of Legacy for the last 5 or so years, Delver puts Miracles well and truly to shame. If you want to go back further, Goblins ran around with the format for longer still.

If you want to snap just the last 12 months then fine, nothing touches Miracles but that's a disingenuous scale when the format is more than a decade old. Miracles is just the latest holder of a well worn and not often passed on crown: "Most popular deck in the format".

As for Modern eggs, it was banned for the same reason given for Shahrazad. While I will agree they are not fun to play against, it was issues of tournament constrains that cost these cards. If a card could be banned for giving feel bads, I would own a set of Workshops worth considerably less than they do right now. Because that deck is hell and even with Chalice taking a hit, it's still among the very top of the Vintage tiers.

It was nearly 24 months... not 12... for nearly 2 years now nothing has come close to unseating Miracles...
I think recent history is far more important then data points that are years and years old. Your right that goblins used to be one one heck of a deck, but times change, Batterskulls are printed... and here we are... If we were debating what the best legacy deck of all time is... (Hulk-Flash...) then I think the fact that RUG was dominate for 2ish years from 2011-2013 is pretty relevant.

Here's my prediction Miracles will continue to dominate the DTB calculations in the format for the next 24 months (barring a banning.)

There is alwasy going to be a "Most Popular Deck" that's true. In the past people would key up on a deck and that deck would do well but then people would meta game against it and it would fall some, (not alwasy out of the DTB, but from 1 to 4 or 5 for the month)... and something else would take top slots for the month, then that deck would get meta gamed and the cycle would continue. Sure it would be like 5-10 decks that ended up at the top most of the time, but from month to month there was more verity and flux in the meta game. We just aren't really getting that now... at least not with the top decks... maybe the lower half of the DTB cycles in and out, but the top DTB is pretty much a given at this point...

So yeah it's all how you want to look at it. I just miss the days when the top deck of the format would cycle from month to month...

[Dice_Box]

I know Batterskull was printed, my point was that Goblins was a very popular deck for a very long time and then things changed. I am not asking what was the best deck ever in the format, I am simply stating that a deck being Dominate is not exactly a new phenomenon. After Goblins Maverick was the best deck, again faded. Then RUG Delver, now faded. Today we are in the time of Miracles but it too will fade. That's Legacy.

Also just to point out, the time of Miracles would be over if not for the bannings of Cruise and Dig. Though artificial means Miracles holds its titile, but it did lose it. As it will again in the future.

[GundamGuy]

Also just to point out, the time of Miracles would be over if not for the bannings of Cruise and Dig. Though artificial means Miracles holds its titile, but it did lose it. As it will again in the future.

Cruise and Dig were printed in fall 2014... Miracles fell at worst to DTB #2 (EDIT: Turn out it hit #3 a whole one time that I missed, before bouncing back into #1) during the time span from Fall 2014 (when Cruse and Dig were printed) to today (after both were banned)... So I'd like to understand how you read that information and suggest that if it weren't for Cruse and Dig being banned Miracles would be "over."

Cruse and Dig didn't hurt miracles... very much at all... because nothing hurts miracles very much at all.

[Dice_Box]

Cruise got a cycle. I wish it had more, but it didn't so total data for that is to be left incomplete.

As for Dig, Omni was taking over, chewing at its heals and taking its crown. While Miracles was still the most popular deck, it was no longer the most powerful. That title moved to Omni. The shift of balance would take time, but Miracles was losing ground as the shift took place.

Also, for the irony, Goblins hurts Miracles. Not that I would take Goblins to the bank these days.

[GundamGuy]

Cruise got a cycle. I wish it had more, but it didn't so total data for that is to be left incomplete.

As for Dig, Omni was taking over, chewing at its heals and taking its crown. While Miracles was still the most popular deck, it was no longer the most powerful. That title moved to Omni. The shift of balance would take time, but Miracles was losing ground as the shift took place.

Also, for the irony, Goblins hurts Miracles. Not that I would take Goblins to the bank these days.

Omni only seemed like it was taking over because it was the hot new thing, Miracles still peformed very well in that meta. In fact if you use the DTB formula there was only one month since Omnitell hit the scene in which Omnitell ranked higher then Miracles.

Maybe Omnitell would eventually push Miracles out of the format, but the data doesn't really show that, it shows Miracles continuing along on top of the format like alwasy... just business as usual for Miracles...

What I bolded is a very good point. The decks that have good miracles matchups are largely unplayable now for other reasons. It's sort of like all of miracles natural predators have gone extinct.