[Deck] CounterSliver

[Hanni]

Inconsistent how? Even if you only see 1 in a game, it's not going to wreck the game for you... but the games where you actually get to draw 3 cards from it should justify inconsistency's. It's not that AK is amazing in the deck, it's that it's the only realistic form of card advantage that is available. 8 cantrips are plenty enough cantrips... more cantrips will increase card quality further, but the deck needs card advantage far more.

EDIT:

Look you can't hope to support a 4 color mana base on 18 land. Confidant is great card advantage, but is totally wrong for this deck. We have no out such as cabal therapy should the life loss get dangerous and no way to seriously exploit him such as sensei's top. Also with only 7 counters and zero stifles (to deal with ringleader, EE, ect.) you have no hope of protecting him, which means he won't generate the card advantage you want.

As for Accumulated Knowledge, I don't see why were still debating this. AK is a terrible card if it isn't with Intuition. The argument that the first one is bad tends to exclude it from competitive play, as you never want to run bad cards.

A core of the deck has already been agreed upon, tested, and proven. Wild alterations to the deck ,such as changing its colors or lessening its counterbase to less than 7 counters, are counterproductive and cause all of us to take your opinions with a grain of salt.

Wow okay I was just tossing some random ideas out, not trying to "ruin" your deck and make you discredit my trying to help you. I'm gonna just stop posting in this thread now.

[Maverick676]

Alright enough about AK. Lets do alittle math shall we?

If you happen to draw 3 AK's in a game thats a total of 6 cards drawn for those 3 cards spent.

Now predict with the 8 cantrips in the deck will almost always draw 2 cards whether or not there are others in the graveyard.

So if you plaw 3 predicts you get 6 cards for three cards spent and none of them are bad.

Now if you only were to draw 2 Aks thats 3 cards drawn for 2 cards spent. Whereas 2 predicts would be 4 cards drawn for 2 cards spent.

Does everyone see the point I'm trying to make here?

EDIT:

Wow okay I was just tossing some random ideas out, not trying to "ruin" your deck and make you discredit my trying to help you. I'm gonna just stop posting in this thread now.

YAY!!!!

[xsockmonkeyx]

Now predict with the 8 cantrips in the deck will almost always draw 2 cards whether or not there are others in the graveyard.

So if you plaw 3 predicts you get 6 cards for three cards spent and none of them are bad.

Now if you only were to draw 2 Aks thats 3 cards drawn for 2 cards spent. Whereas 2 predicts would be 4 cards drawn for 2 cards spent.

Well, best case scenario you would need 2 Brainstorms/Visions for those predicts to draw 2 so thats another 2 cards into the cost. This means predict is closer to 4 cards drawn for 4 cards spent plus some brainstormy goodness.

They are both suboptimal choices. Its like choosing between giant douche and turd sandwich IMO.

[Volt]

@Mav: You've been getting your jerk on lately. What's up with that? Chill a little.

@Hanni: Thank you for your suggestions and interest in this deck. Honestly, though, I don't think this deck "needs" AK or Predict. A couple Predicts might be okay, but AK is really mediocre and not worth opening up 4 slots for. In any case, this deck seems to do quite well without those cards.

[Nightmare]

Holy cow. I just stumbled on this thread, and noticed the debate that was clarified in the Threshold thread like 6 months ago. Predict is a better draw engine than AK in that deck because it boosts thresh. AK is probably better in this deck because you don't care about thresh. Seriously, everyone who is active in this thread should go to the archives and read the entire threshold thread, and then read the UGW thresh thread in the LMF, and then continue this one. For real. Go do it. Now.

[Volt]

Holy cow. I just stumbled on this thread, and noticed the debate that was clarified in the Threshold thread like 6 months ago. Predict is a better draw engine than AK in that deck because it boosts thresh. AK is probably better in this deck because you don't care about thresh. Seriously, everyone who is active in this thread should go to the archives and read the entire threshold thread, and then read the UGW thresh thread in the LMF, and then continue this one. For real. Go do it. Now.

What I got from that whole thing is that pretty much no one likes AK, and Predict is only decent if you're running a lot of cards (i.e. more than 8) to set up the top of the deck. That puts us back at square 1.

[Maverick676]

I still think that predict is our best option since we would only be running 2 or so of them. I really don't see a problem with supporting 1 predict on average in a game. Of course thats really not much card advantage so I not sure it would even be useful to do so.

Why are we so obsessed with a huge draw engine anyways? The deck does fine using cantrips, granted some matchups need to be played conservatively but overall we get CA of most decks by making their creatures basically worthless. Virtual card advantage is not the same as actual card advantage but it is still quite useful. If were so worried about needing CA because of sweepers then why don't we just run a few extra counters and adjust our playstyle accordingly when we face those decks.

[Pinder]

@Mav: You've been getting your jerk on lately. What's up with that? Chill a little.

QFT. Diplomacy goes a lot longer way than asshattery. Simmer down, man. Try and be nice when you're making your points, however stupid they may be.

So, in summation:

Predict

Pros: With the amount of Cantrips in the deck, we should be able to turn it into a 2-for-1 a lot of times.

Cons: We're not Threshold. Pitching the top card of our library isn't good for us. Couple the top card with the cantrip we'll have to spend to set it up, and that's three cards we're losing to gain 2. See what kind of point I'm making here? The top card contributes to Threshold to offset the loss in Thresh, but does absolutely nothing for us.

Accumulated Knowledge

Pros: It's raw card advantage. The first is admittedly not cost effective, but each one thereafter is 2 cards for 2 mana or better. Numbers 3 and 4 are crazy good.

Cons: In order to actually be able to play numbers 3 and 4, we have to devote 4 slots to AK in the main. This deck currently doesn't have room for that without losing a lot of utility.

Now, in terms of AK vs. Predict, my ruling is that, if we had room, AK would probably be better for us. But we don't. So we shouldn't run either one of them. Didn't we decide this on the last fucking page? Until Wizards prints a Sliver ringleader, I'm not sure how much raw card advantage we can fit in. For now we'll just have to avoid card disadvantage and push card quality as high as it can possibly go.

[Nightmare]

Until Wizards prints a Sliver ringleader, I'm not sure how much raw card advantage we can fit in. For now we'll just have to avoid card disadvantage and push card quality as high as it can possibly go.

You could always run Brass Herald or Goblin Ringleader and Hivestone...

[Maverick676]

QFT. Diplomacy goes a lot longer way than asshattery. Simmer down, man. Try and be nice when you're making your points, however stupid they may be.

Did you just tell me to be nice and call my opinions stupid in the same sentence?

Cons: We're not Threshold. Pitching the top card of our library isn't good for us. Couple the top card with the cantrip we'll have to spend to set it up, and that's three cards we're losing to gain 2. See what kind of point I'm making here? The top card contributes to Threshold to offset the loss in Thresh, but does absolutely nothing for us.

This isn't exactly true. All the cantrip costs us is mana since cantrips do replace themselves, and the card lost off the top of the library doesn't count as an actual resource since it wasn't in our hand to begin with (unless future sight is out or something) and should be something irrelevant anyway. So actually we're only spending 2 cards to draw 3 which still isn't that great. I think the point you were trying to make pinder is that predict is horrible by itself and medicore even when it is set up properly.

@Mav: You've been getting your jerk on lately. What's up with that? Chill a little.

Alright I'll stop being so mean to everyone.

[Volt]

Did you just tell me to be nice and call my opinions stupid in the same sentence?

In Pinder's defense, I'm pretty sure that last part was just bad grammar on his part.

In any case, I think we've pretty much flattened a deceased equine on the last couple of pages. A couple Predicts might be okay; aside from that, we're better off sticking to cantrips to assure card quality. That means "no" to AK. Let's move on.

[Maverick676]

In Pinder's defense, I'm pretty sure that last part was just bad grammar on his part.

No need to defend Pinder, I take no offense as I'm sure this is the case. Just pointing out a rather humorous sentence. I playtest with Pinder all the time so I know thats not what he meant.

[TekTik]

I don't mean to advertise but I would appreciate suggestions and opinions on my life deck post it's called [DECK] W/G Life. And pinder isnt the smartest guy, so don't beat him up over being not so smart. He makes up for it in funny.

[Pinder]

Oh no. I said exactly what I meant (even if it was in jest ). Here's my stance on the whole Predict/AK thing:

Predict is stupid.
AK is stupid.

I hope that clears things up.

EDIT: And Tek, please keep the discussion on CounterSliver. Life isn't some rogue deck you just thought up, it's an established (if former) archetype that was around a while back in extended. I'll agree that I'm not the smartest person, however, and that I'm really funny .

[Maverick676]

Oh no. I said exactly what I meant (even if it was in jest ). Here's my stance on the whole Predict/AK thing:

Predict is stupid.
AK is stupid.

Horray we're all in agreement (much drinking and rejoicing ensues)

[Pinder]

Alright, now that the drinking and rejoicing is done, I present another decklist based on what we've learned:

// 17 Lands

//Dudes (16)
4 Muslce
4 Crystalline
3 Plated
3 Talon
2 Winged

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Permission (9)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle

//Removal/Utility (10)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle

I kept Stifle in, because it is useful (and pitches to force), but I cut it down to a 2-of because it's pretty dead after a while. I stuck in Pithing Needle because, well, it's Pithing Needle. We might also be able to shave the maindeck EE count down to 2 if someone wanted to run Call....

Tell me what you think.

[Maverick676]

The list looks good. I don't like daze as a 3 of or stifle as a 2 of. But thats just a personal preference. I'm going to continue playing with pithing needle in the SB, But thats just a metagame call for my area. Besides not having Daze as a 4 of, I would have to say that this should be our agreed upon list.

EDIT: Although it saddens me that chain of vapor didn't make the list. Will that card ever find a home?

[Pinder]

Not unless Wizards prints some raw card advantage that works for us. Something like 'UU - Instant - Draw 2 cards'. Don't count on that anytime soon. CoV isn't a permanent enough answer to most things to make up for the card disadvantage that we create with it. It's a great tempo card, but it has too many things wrong with it.

As for Daze as a 3 of, do you really want to see them late game? How useful are they then, really? Early game is where they're at their finest. I'd honestly like to find a way to fit counterspell in there again as a 2-of for the late game hard counters, but to do that we'd have to move Pithing Needle to the board. Maybe it's better there anyway. We could always cut 3 Pithing Needle for 2 Counterspell and 1 Call, I guess.

[Volt]

The list looks good. I don't like daze as a 3 of or stifle as a 2 of. But thats just a personal preference. I'm going to continue playing with pithing needle in the SB, But thats just a metagame call for my area. Besides not having Daze as a 4 of, I would have to say that this should be our agreed upon list.

EDIT: Although it saddens me that chain of vapor didn't make the list. Will that card ever find a home?

You know, I was wishing I had CoV when I was playing against Reanimator last Friday night. Bouncing that Akroma back to Nick's hand after he worked so hard to get it into play would have been pretty funny. To be honest, though, that's about the only time I can recall wishing I had CoV in the deck.

I agree, the list looks pretty good. I would probably go with 4 Daze, 2 Stifle, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 EE, and 1 Eladamri's Call (although I know I'm fighting an uphill battle with that last one). I'm still totally on the fence about Stifle vs. Pithing Needle, actually. I could see going with Mav's preference of 4 Stifles maindeck, and Pithing Needles just in the sideboard. I will say that maindecking 3 Pithing Needles (instead of Stifles) improves the Goblins matchup by about 5%, and playing 3 of each improves it by about another 5%. However, as far as overall utility against the Tier 1 gauntlet, it might actually make sense to just play Stifles maindeck. Where the Pithing Needles really start to shine is against some of the tier 2 matchups, like The Rock, Survival, Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Truffle Shuffle, Tog, etc.

[Maverick676]

As for Daze as a 3 of, do you really want to see them late game? How useful are they then, really? Early game is where they're at their finest.

Thats exactly why I always run 4. That way you have the highest chance possible of seeing it in your opening hand. Would you ever run vial as a 3 of? The principle remains the same for daze. Plus daze can be useful in multiples late game, especially when that goblin player taps out on 6th turn for that last ringleader hoping your out of counters. Daze is everything you could want in a counterspell, it's free, amazingly effective, and everytime it counters a threat over 3cc your opponent feels like you just hit them over the head with a shovel (hence the name).

EDIT:

1 Eladamri's Call (although I know I'm fighting an uphill battle with that last one).

I don't think there's much point in debating about this card. It is just one slot after all and you've appeared to have good results with it. Infact I think I'll test it as a one-of for a few games at least and see how I like it.