What cards should I be considering in a meta filled with sort-of-fair creature decks?
Think: DnT, Aether Vial + Cavern of Souls.dec, Elves, Grixis/BUG Delver
On the topic of Predict: is it any better than running Ancestral Vision? Anyone running an Esper build try out Painful Truths yet?
Predict is very much better than Visions yes.Originally Posted by Offensive_username
I don't think Esper Miracles exists (as both REB and Wear//Tear are intergral parts of our decks), but Painful Truths is clearly a consideration in those colours.
@Cards for Vial+Cavern matches: Needle, Staticaster, Swords and Terminus are all pretty good. Wear // Tear are also needed.
Pyroclasm too (Can we avoid 20 comments about how Pyroclasm is secretly the best card in legacy at the moment?)
Fair decks are not all the same, really should not list all of them in the same sentence. Also, why would you put Elves there in the sentence? Isn't the full name of the deck Combo elves?
You can split those decks into 2 types by asking yourself: does it run Vial and/or Cavern?
If your meta is filled with Goblins and Merfolk, maybe you should just Not play Miracles at all. Of all the Miracles build, I would actually suggest Predict Miracles. The creature removal package from those builds are so~~ redundant. However, you have to change the SB a bit. Other than Staticaster people here have suggested, you know there will be massive hate on SDT via needle and/or null rod, and possibly Chalice from your opponent. I would recommend EE, your own needle, pyroclasm, and even a mountain (if not in the MD) are all possible options.
It's a fine card, I value its surprise element much higher than the actual card. DnT players might suspect you to have it, but they might still risk it by playing into it. Another issue with the card is red mana source. Against tempo/Vial decks, they run stifle and/or wasteland, how do you actually establish your Mana base without using basic mountain can be tricky sometimes, hence you're kind of priced into running at least 1 mountain in your 75.
About Grixis GUR or Young Pyro Decks
If Grixis YP decks is very popular in your area, one card I recommend is Slice and Dice. If you're able to float this card to avoid therapy, it's amazing when you cycle it. If the game goes long, flashback it is not impossible. Here's a clip of how difficult YP deck can be:
GP SeaTac
https://youtu.be/t2mnFBK4kPU
Because they just use punishing fire to kill your meddling mage? Or, if you name Pfire, they molten vortex and kill it?
Predict is far and beyond more powerful than Vision, especially if you build around it. Painful truths is powerful, but Red blasts are even stronger and not something I'd ever be willing to lose.
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Only played the matchup once, ever. Still, that seems like a reason to just no run it at all.
Been trying out Predict in the sideboard and have only had good experiences with it so far. Predicted a flipped Top with Red Blast on the Stack targeting their Counterbalance, today. Card is insane in the mirror. I think I dropped it too quickly 2 years back on account of drawing it dead twice in a tournament. In the list I'm running it plays off 18 cards in the deck, including blind flips from Counterbalance, which I never realized would happen.
Alright, so predict is the bee's knees. I get it. Now I have a follow-up question that I surprisingly cannot find an answer for with my google-fu...
With a RIP in play, does Predict still work for two cards when accurately called?
It just kind of trips me up being that it never says "reveal" before it's chucked in a (non-existent) GY.
Still works as intended.
Was browsing through SCG and saw on one of the SCG Classics there was a Miracles list that got 10th place. However it looks like something out of 2012, it's running Rip-Helm and Elspeth in the Sideboard.
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (21)
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
Spells (36)
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Ponder
4 Terminus
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Can anyone hazard what kind of sideboarding strategy this deck would use? I find it odd if someone was going on the RIP-Helm Strategy there would at least be an enlightened tutor or two somewhere to get the combo going. Also, forgive my ignorance but isn't Spell Pierce and other taxing counters not the best in this deck due to their diminishing effect as the game goes on?
Bad decks win all the time, and yes, to answer your questions. E-tutor is not favored anymore since it's inherent card disadvantage, and yes, that's why spell pierce is bad.
Explains why Predict is doing well :^)
Have you tried the card in a build designed around it yet? Your arguments have no basis when you cant actually evaluate the card properly.
I said the same thing about 4x Ponder in Miracles for the longest. It's hard to tell whether anything being done with this deck is an evolution, or just a shift in collective preferences.
Watch someone win the next GP with RIP Miracles.
I have been toying with this deck build for a while, I am a new miracles player and I was trying to decide between Legends miracles and, standard..? miracles? I guess?
either way my Flex slots have been between 3 Snapcasters, 1 JTMS, 1 ETA, and 1 Councils Judgement, vs 1 Vensor, 3 Clique, 2 Karakas.
I don't like mentor in the deck. At all, I don't have enough experience to argue against it, but I will not be playing it.
2 ETA seems like a good choice, having one stuck in your hand all game and still being able to Top Deck one (when you need it) is very nice, plus extra Probability of hitting a win con.
Haven't gotten much use out of Snappies yet, There is potential with 4 B-storm and STP, I would keep these.
Jace is...Amazing, 3 is probably the perfect number.
I tried to do some testing with a MD Keranos based on an earlier post, but after numerous games I never saw him. Must be a sign, we are waiting for a miracle after all.
My BF plays reanimator so having a vensor and karakas is obviously strong, I think 'normal miracles' should run at least 1 Karakas as a white source, and mull to it if it's the difference between winning and losing.
Have yet to use council's judgement, V-clique as a 1 of might actually be a decent consideration MD, it is almost impossible to be a bad card to have.
4 Ponder makes it possible to get through your deck, even if SDT is in the last 15 cards of your deck... (this was an awful experience by the way, still won that game but wow.)
You touch on various topics, I'll reply to each one separately.
1. Legend vs. non-Legend
The primary issue with Legend Miracles is time. You'll spend A Lot of turns Karakas bouncing your Legends, which is empty spinning. This is known as the Clique/Venser dance. The reason is that you'll run into board states in which blocking is required but you don't have the creature removal redundancy snapcater-centric build provides. They are not flex slots, you have to decide which is more valuable to you, Snapcaster or Clique. Your path and game plan are set once you choose the path. If you go for Lossett's Cavern build, which runs both but I forget the number, then that creates a separate issue with the Mana base.
2. Mentor vs. other win condition
Mentor is great in that it costs one White while Entreat requires WW. While it's obvious, that makes a huge difference. Again, if your build is centered around spells, then Snapcaster and Mentor all fit in naturally. Another consideration is the Shardless BUG MU, Mentor does Not shine in that MU at all.
3. Karakas
BBD has mentioned this in his post SeaTac article. "I don't mind Karakas as a spell. I just don't count it as a land," said BBD. I agree with this assessment. Again, if you choose Clique, this "spell" would fit in nicely. I see it as a Legendary Mox Pearl with additional text such as skip your land drop.
In conclusion, debating one card vs. another card in a generic Miracles archetype context is pointless, since it itself is very customizable. People really should just try all these builds, and you naturally would prefer one build over another.
At SCG Cinci's Legacy, 3rd place Miracles ran 2 Wasteland. Interestingly enough, I'm considering doing the same. I didn't think to include Crucible, but that seems like an interesting build. I might give it a try.
What problem is that seeking to solve, I wonder.
Well it makes us (almost) immune to Wasteland decks, plus it allows us to deal with problem lands (Boseiju, Cavern, Port, Grove, Stage, Cloudpost, etc) without having to run Blood Moon.
Thanks for the input. I think I prefer Ponder miracles. I played against lands the other day and was able to fight off 9 tokens. The extra dig/shuffle is too nice to pass up.
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