Hi chuckado, I know how you feel - I am curious about my manabase as well! By only seeing a list of lands it is difficult to tell if the choices are correct for the deck. Though, I can share what I have learned about building a mana base.Originally Posted by chuckado
First, we need to look at what spells we want to cast on which turns. Example:
On turn 1, blue to cantrip, and black or green to play a Deathrite Shaman, or perhaps black to Thoughtseize.
On turn 2, white to cast Stoneforge Mystic or perhaps line up a Swords to Plowshares.
On turn 3, we hope to have double blue for Vendilion Clique or True-name Nemesis.
Figuring out the chances of drawing what we need is based on "hypergeometric distribution," and there are nice charts and calculators that already exist for our reference.
Next, compare what we are doing to others that have succeeded already. One thing I noticed is that you play 2 Scrubland (where many others might play 1) along with the 3 U.Sea means you might have more black mana symbols than other decks (perhaps you have Liliana of the Veil?). Then I see you have both a Karakas and a Plains, so maybe you have some spells that cost double white too? You might have to take a look at the balance between blue and non-blue sources in your deck.
As for including basics, I would say that depends on how many of your opponents play Wasteland, Blood Moon, etc. (meta-game call). Now that I think about it, I would want a basic if having that color was important to my game plan or if it helped me get out of a situation where my mana was under pressure (ex. Plains for Disenchant on Blood Moon). You might ask yourself, "When do I want to fetch an Island or Plains over a dual land?"
Mana bases don't get much greedier than Deathblade, and with Sylvan Library + Abrupt Decay in my deck list, mine is high on the greed scale. My land selection differs from your's in part to green sources taking up slots formerly held by basics. I might get blown out by Price of Progress or Back to Basics.
As for just figuring out how much mana the deck needs/has, I count all 4 Deathrite Shaman as *almost* 1 land, as it dies often and depends on fetchlands in the early turns.
In regards to cantrips, Patrick Chapin (2015) explains, "cards like Ponder can help fix your mana. As a general rule, cheap cantrips like this can be looked at as being worth between 50% and 100% of your mana ratio. For instance, if you have 24 lands in a sixty-card deck, that is 40% land. If you add a Ponder, you could say it increases your land count by between 20% and 40% of a land" (pg. 49). For me, I have Deathrite, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sylvan Library as adding 2.5 to my land count.
Anyway, I hope this information gives you a little more to think about over the next few days.
References
Chapin, P. (2015). Next Level Deckbuilding.
Thanks a lot for the reply. I have not settled on a 75 yet but hope to over the next couple of weeks and I will be running without basics to give that a go. I don't plan on running any double white spells and I think if you play smart you can play around wasteland since we have a good number of lands plus deathrite shaman.Hi chuckado, I know how you feel - I am curious about my manabase as well! By only seeing a list of lands it is difficult to tell if the choices are correct for the deck. Though, I can share what I have learned about building a mana base.
First, we need to look at what spells we want to cast on which turns. Example:
On turn 1, blue to cantrip, and black or green to play a Deathrite Shaman, or perhaps black to Thoughtseize.
On turn 2, white to cast Stoneforge Mystic or perhaps line up a Swords to Plowshares.
On turn 3, we hope to have double blue for Vendilion Clique or True-name Nemesis.
Figuring out the chances of drawing what we need is based on "hypergeometric distribution," and there are nice charts and calculators that already exist for our reference.
Next, compare what we are doing to others that have succeeded already. One thing I noticed is that you play 2 Scrubland (where many others might play 1) along with the 3 U.Sea means you might have more black mana symbols than other decks (perhaps you have Liliana of the Veil?). Then I see you have both a Karakas and a Plains, so maybe you have some spells that cost double white too? You might have to take a look at the balance between blue and non-blue sources in your deck.
As for including basics, I would say that depends on how many of your opponents play Wasteland, Blood Moon, etc. (meta-game call). Now that I think about it, I would want a basic if having that color was important to my game plan or if it helped me get out of a situation where my mana was under pressure (ex. Plains for Disenchant on Blood Moon). You might ask yourself, "When do I want to fetch an Island or Plains over a dual land?"
Mana bases don't get much greedier than Deathblade, and with Sylvan Library + Abrupt Decay in my deck list, mine is high on the greed scale. My land selection differs from your's in part to green sources taking up slots formerly held by basics. I might get blown out by Price of Progress or Back to Basics.
As for just figuring out how much mana the deck needs/has, I count all 4 Deathrite Shaman as *almost* 1 land, as it dies often and depends on fetchlands in the early turns.
In regards to cantrips, Patrick Chapin (2015) explains, "cards like Ponder can help fix your mana. As a general rule, cheap cantrips like this can be looked at as being worth between 50% and 100% of your mana ratio. For instance, if you have 24 lands in a sixty-card deck, that is 40% land. If you add a Ponder, you could say it increases your land count by between 20% and 40% of a land" (pg. 49). For me, I have Deathrite, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sylvan Library as adding 2.5 to my land count.
Anyway, I hope this information gives you a little more to think about over the next few days
References
Chapin, P. (2015). Next Level Deckbuilding.
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Congratulations for the good results!
I have some questions about your list, and some more similar lists I see in internet, i hope someone can answer me:
1. ¿Is good snapcaster mage in this deck? ¿Really better than Dark Confidant? The only reason I think, If I only would choose the blue mage, is for running more blue cards in main deck for Force of Will, but I think Confidant is much better for this deck style game.
2. ¿When abrupt decay goes in? Miracles and Blade, its ok. Is a great card again tempo decks, like Grixis, Team America, etc... but I don't think it could be a good idea side in it, and running this card against wasteland decks.
3. Why containment priest? Isn't better more Meddling Mage?
4. The Krosan Grip is really needed?? (I see it in some lists)
Thank you!! And sorry for my english
What is the best way for deathblade to improve its miracles matchup
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Elspeth, Nahiri, or even Dark Confidant (though this requires shifting around other things).
Gaddock Teeg. Counter the StP's and he will hold off Terminii, EtA, and Jace.
Laugh, but it does good work.
Edit: Waste the Karakas, too.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
1) Do not let him complete his countertop combo
This combo will stops a lot of spells you cast. Either thoughtseize and discards the balance or fow hard counter against it. Don't bother fighting the top as it can always go on top of the library.
2) Play like an aggro deck, but vary the amount of threat on the board
If you are afraid of losing all your assets to a terminus, just put a maximum of 2 threats (either combination of deathrite, tnn or stoneforge). Put down a Stoneforge to search for batterskull and force him to use his counters or removal early. Put down a deathrite shaman and chip away his health using his early cantrips. He will have no choice but to start removing early.
3) Vendilion Clique in response to his terminus or Entreat
You can always respond to his terminus or entreat with VC, keep it in hand till he goes off.
4) Jace is your wincon
Whoever puts down Jace first wins! It's true for me as most of my miracles game 1 won off the back of a uncontested Jace. Slap it down and look at his library. He might have top to shuffle it. But it forces him to use mana and gives you a chance to maintain a strong board presence.
Post board you should have plenty of options to help, such as surgical extraction (extract his top / balance)
OK. I am a long time deathblade player. I have switched back and forth between different versions. Below is my current decklist:
Creatures
4 x Deathrite Shaman
3 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x True-name Nemesis
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Snapcaster Mage
1 x Notion Thief
Planeswalkers
2 x Jace, the mind sculptor
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Elspeth, Knight Errant
Spells
3 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Force of Will
3 x Ponder
2 x Thoughtseize
1 x Council's judgement
Artifacts
1 x Batterskull
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
Lands
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Wasteland
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Marsh Flats
3 x Underground Sea
3 x Tundra
1 x Scrubland
1 x Tropical Island
1 x Savannah
Sideboard
1 x Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 x Force of Will
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Containment Priest
1 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Meddling Mage
1 x Zealous Persecution
1 x Engineered Explosives
1 x Spell Snare
1 x Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast
1 x Flusterstorm
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Negate
What do you guys think of Ashiok on the SB?
I love how greedy this list is! The lack of four-of's probably makes this fun to play over and over. I looked over your list a few times looking for a Sylvan Library, lol!
I like the way you had to cut back on some of our darlings (less Swords to Plowshares, Thoughtseize) to make room for other favorites (like Council's Judgement).
I am intrigued by the Elspeth. That is one card I want to fit in right now, but didn't know what to cut. When do you want to draw her? When does Elspeth shine?
The interaction between Notion Thief and an opponent's Brainstorm/Jace is cute, but do you find Notion Thief consistently good enough for main-deck tournament play? Or is the card more of a pet card you have fun casting?
As for mana, do you ever feel like you need more land? I see you have a third Underground Sea where I have a Bayou. With all the requisite double-blue casting costs in Deathblade, I have been gun shy about cramming double-white and double-black spells in list. Are these spells as easy to cast in a greedy list as I hope, or is it more difficult to get the colors we need on the turn we need them?
I cut out the utility lands (Karakas,academy ruins) for more colored mana.
Elspeth is good late game when you have control the board or clear the way for her to drop. She is hard to remove (4cc) and there are other threats in your deck that needs to be removed. She ends game very quickly if drop (+3/+3 amd flying is not to be laughed at)
Notion thief is my 61st card. I like how he interacts to take away draw (plenty of blue decks in my meta, so expect plenty of brainstorms to stop) It allows me to win the card advantage race and force my opp to put my removal. If he sticks, i win!
Stoneforge is one of the wincon but not the only wincon. So I just cut back on her. Also with artifact hate running around she is not as powerful as before. I usually side her out in game 2 for meddling mage and other cards. (P.S. i tried an entreat in her slot as well, but i guess that is way too greedy)
Abrupt decay is too good not to be included. It guarantees a card removed, anything annoying out of sight. With 4 deathrite, i feel 21 lands is ok. Just make sure you mulligan properly (wasteland with blue cards hand is a no)
It's important to note that as far as specific matchups are concerned, Elspeth is at her best against Miracles. They have one out to a resolved Elspeth, which is Council's Judgement.
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This is true but a resolved Entreat the Angels kills faster, so they don't have to deal with Elspeth. Not sure about Monastery Mentor.
Well, if they always have Entreat, the mana to cast it for a relevant amount, and you have no counter, pretty much every card in this whole deck is just bad. I don't see how that is a critique of Elspeth though.
One nice thing about Elspeth is that she constantly creates pressure. She is also a threat multiplier, which means they need to answer any creature on the board since Elspeth can make it into a real clock. Also, more Planeswalkers means a better chance to have two of them out, which is really back-breaking for them. Depending on their build, this can be a ton of pressure on them to get on the board, since they can't afford to let Jace or Lili tick up forever.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
That is correct. I was trying to say, that if you both reach 4 mana without ramp Entreat for 2 angels kills faster than Elspeth, and therefore I do not agree 100% that Council's Judgment is the Miracle player's way to deal with Elspeth.
I would rather look at Elspeth as an answer to Terminus and Swords to Plowshares than an answer to the whole deck - but I admit this might be semantics.
I guess this is what I was trying to say.
On another note, i'm trying Marco Montani's version out, but I would really like to fit in one liliana of the veil. Would it make sense to cut one True-name Nemesis?
Creatures [13]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
Instants [14]
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
Sorceries [6]
1 Council's Judgment
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan LibraryPlaneswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [22]
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted DeltaSideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Force of Will
2 Negate
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Also, many Miracles players don't even play an entreat any more.
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I've been playing Esper Stoneblade and recently picked up BUG Delver. I've throughly enjoyed casting Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay and have decided to move into Deathblade.
Here is the list that I am going to playtest this week:
Creatures (11)
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (8)
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
1x Council's Judgment
Instants (14)
4x Brainstorm
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Force of Will
Planeswalkers (2)
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Artifacts (3)
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
Lands (21)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Karakas
1x Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1x Krosan Grip
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Meddling Mage
2x Containment Priest
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Thoughtseize
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Zealous Persecution
Thoughts? Comments?
Seems solid. I'm looking forward to hear how you manabase worked. I usually tend to 22 lands with 3 wastelands, but no karakas and creeping tar pit.
Hi All.
is painful truths worth playing 1-off?
/m0ller
I havent tried it personally, but i saw tom martell advocated it as 1 of. It seems to gain popularity slowly, also in modern, now that bob eats removal every time.
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