With the little time I have dedicated to the deck until now, I have to say that I never had the need to find DRS with GSZ. When I want a mana dork search Dryad Arbor and when need graveyard hate go for Scavenging Ooze even if I have to wait a turn. I prefer a maindeck solution for Blood Moon, equipments and Counterbalance apart from Abrupt Decay with the Qasali Pridemage. In addition, DRS could be a death card in hand because of our Chalice of the Void. About the DD + TS combo, I am not running it because I do not want more singletons that makes the deck less consistant nor play more than 25 lands, because I have played some games in which I did not have CA engine so I was going to the topdeck and only drew lands and more lands... The only reason I thought the combo was because is sexy have a wincon with the Loam by itself, but not end to convince me.
Apart from suggestions (thanks for them), do you consider BUG variants as favorable matchups? I could see that we lose a lot of potential in matchups in which Chalice of the Void is regular or bad, matchups in which you can lose your wincons easy with an Abrupt Decay.
@Pilhas
The thing about TES is they basically fold to your first interaction. Or at least the first makes it much easier to compound the hate. G1 is tough. If you do not know what they are on you are dead in the water. If you do know, chalice on 0 turns off 7ish cards in their deck and buys you a lot of time. Postboard I have enough interaction in the deck that I can just mull to mox or chalice and crush them a majority of the time. In this matchup there isn't really much of a punishment for going to 4 for hate.
If you refuse to mull past 4, your chances of seeing a turn 1 play are 96%. If you are only willing to mull once it is 86%
Their best draws are T1 wins usually involving goblins but we also have golgari charms and deluges for those.
You are right about elves, but I think because of that last statistic not having interaction is not that much of a problem.
@Koke_MTG
The matchups where grave hate is really important like Dredge and Reanimator it also needs to happen fast. A turn 3 Zenith for Scooze is just to slow most of the time.
Not playing it because if the dissynergy with Chalice is a really bad reason. When chalice is on the board and live, we are basically unstoppable. The existence of 1 dead draw does not matter.
It is also 'free' to upgrade a GSZ for arbor into a GSZ for DRS if there is a chalice out.
DRS and pridemage serve different purposes so I would not compare them.
That sounds like a bad hand. If there are no cards in your opener that excite you, mull."I have played some games in which I did not have CA engine"
Stage-Depths is about as inconsistent as Maze of Ith.
I personally had many times where I wanted to Zenith up a Shaman because I had no Mox Diamond, got wasted, stucking on 2 lands...Zenith here on Arbor was always really akward because it only produces g mana and is strict worse sthan Shaman. The only reason I dont play the Shaman at the moment is that I dont know what to cut because everything is really tight.
Currently playingEldrazi
Hi guys!
I played a lot of Miracles and Tempo decks these past years, now i want to sleeve my Loam again. I have all cards needed but im thinking of buy DD/TS combo. May you give me some advices on what lands setup is good for this combo and pro/cons the deck gain?
Thank you in advance!
I like that it gives hands such as |Mox 2Lands Decay Liliana 2GSZ | a real boost. I know you can also GSZ for the Arbor, but the power level of Shaman is outstanding in comparison. It also makes you fetch for the Forest plenty more times.Originally Posted by Manipulato
These are the situations that I'm afraid of, but Deathrite ends up just being an underwhelming mana dork so often that I can't really keep utilizing him. I mean, I don't even want Dryad Arbor that badly, but having a creature that's tutorable by fetch is something that's actually (and surprisingly useful). By sharp contrast, removal is always a precious commodity. Last weekend I lost twice just because I couldn't find removal for Tarmogoyf. It feels bad to lose to a dumb beater due to lack of removal. It wasn't even like a vicious back and forth. They had Tarmogoyfs. I hit them with a fluffy pillow.
With Seraphix's blessing, I have gone ahead and removed the Deathrite Shaman for another Abrupt Decay. I've also gone ahead and transformed the Engineered Plague into another Toxic Deluge. I have high hopes for both changes, and outside of fringe cases like Reanimator, I don't see the loss of Deathrite Shaman being too devastating.
Below is the current list. Thoughts before I take it to Connecticut this weekend?
Also, I feel really stupid for only asking this now, but have you guys been bringing in Toxic Deluge for Reanimator? I've always been comfortable with the match-up, so I hadn't really given it much thought, but now that I do think about it, I feel like I've been doing it wrong.
Land*26
1*Forest
1*Barren Moor
3*Bayou
3*Grove of the Burnwillows
1*Karakas
1*Maze of Ith
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
1*Taiga
2*Tranquil Thicket
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Windswept Heath
1*Dryad Arbor
Creatures*11
4*Dark Confidant
1*Scavenging Ooze
1*Wickerbough Elder
1*Gaddock Teeg
4*Knight of the Reliquary
Other Spells*23
3*Liliana of the Veil
3*Punishing Fire
2*Green Sun's Zenith
2*Life from the Loam
2*Sylvan Library
4*Abrupt Decay
3*Chalice of the Void
4*Mox Diamond
Sideboard
1*Containment Priest
1*Ethersworn Canonist
2*Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1*Oblivion Ring
3*Leyline of the Void
1*Thoughtseize
2*Toxic Deluge
1*Garruk Relentless
2*Golgari Charm
1*Wear//Tear
Last edited by iamajellydonut; 01-08-2016 at 01:09 PM.
I bring Deluge in because otherwise I just concede to Grave Titan. Obviously the plan is to Leyline them, but that doesn't always come together.
Well, I was figuring "what does it matter if I pay nineteen life so long Big Scary Creature is toast", but that's part of the reason I've been thinking of Deluge, too. Before this point I've always left a few Punishing Fires in (because people are careless with Griselbrand life totals) and I've always managed to win through creative means.
@jelly You really threw me off by not updating the Decay in the list you posted. I was just thinking "Why the fuck was he only playing 2 Decays". Quick count and realized it was a typo :P
Although I am defending DRS I can safely say that the last 2/3 tournaments I played, I cut DRS for the 4th Decay. Although I missed a bit DRS(maybe I tutor him up a bit too much) the 4th decay has been doing wonders.
I want feedback on the Toxic Deluge change, never did it myself but thought about it a couple of times.
Also would like to know the purpose+feedback on the Ring.
Only change I would make is Rec Sage in for wear//tear, but I know it is a choice since you are aware of the card.
EDIT: How is Elder behaving?
D:
It's tough to make changes when you know your list by heart, but yeah, four Abrupt Decays is what it should have put, and I'll let you know how the second Deluge works out after this weekend. :V
O-Ring started out as a Maelstrom Pulse when that was a fad, but that was also at the tail end of the OmniShow era (if I remember correctly), so it wasn't too much of a stretch to change out that catch-all Maelstrom Pulse for a catch-all that didn't suck against Show and Tell. Even though it's an enchantment and can theoretically be removed, it still remains about as effective as Maelstrom Pulse as most decks either can't or aren't inclined to remove it, and the few that can remove it and do remove it are still offering a one-for-one. At the end of the day, more often than not, it says "2W: Exile target nonland permanent", and it's still an answer to Sneak&Show and other Show and Tell plays even though OmniShow itself is long gone.
I do still think about Rec Sage from time to time, and I do think of replacing Wear//Tear from time to time, but so far I haven't seen an overwhelming necessity to do so. Rec Sage having a body, for me, isn't really that much of a turn on. Sure, it's a body and in any other deck I'd be thrilled to have it, but as I've said a few times earlier in the thread, I never really seem to find myself winning through incremental beats. Victory is almost always achieved either via premature concession via a gargantuan Knight of the Reliquary. There are corner cases and every point of life does matter, but more often than not I have the aforementioned to thank. So, knowing that weenies are of negligible value, adding in another 2/1 doesn't really tickle my pickle. However, an instant Super Disenchant is of tremendous use in my book. Although I do think it's a fantastic card in general (snap purchased a playset of the gamedays at $4ea), I think I really only miss the silver bullet aspect of Reclamation Sage.
Wickerbough Elder has been... Good? Continuing on the topic above about only really winning via Knight beats, I had been looking for a way to sneak alternative methods of delivering damage into the deck without compromising the amount of utility I had to work with. A 4/4 that blows shit up seemed like it might do the trick, and so far it has. He is expensive, and there are situations like "what the hell do I need this guy for against BUG?", but that was the same question I asked of Qasali Pridemage, and so far Wickerbough's cost has never proved to be prohibitive. Sure, it's not the same cost as Disenchant, but I've only rarely found myself hardpressed to cough up his mana cost, and the times when I do have to wait to drop him (c'mooon just one more land drop!), it's often worth the wait and it's usually game changing. Plus, how can you beat the reactions he generates? Last week I got a "what the hell..." from someone in the audience when I drew Wickerbough Elder. And even though the spectator's reaction kinda gave away information, it was still satisfying to hear and Wickerbough still went on to wreck face.
Re: Reclamation Sage, for me its the ability to GSZ it up and have 3 virtual copies instead of 1. The beats are just upside (although at the cost of additional mana obviously...)
As has been stated throughout this thread, mulliganing feels hard w/ this deck and I'm often at a loss as to whether I should take one. Lets assume you don't know your opponent, would you keep or mulligan the following hands (both on play and draw) w/ an unknown opponent?
I'm going to just shuffle up and draw some random 7s and put my thoughts down as well.
- Heath, Wasteland, Forest, Fire, Chalice, Bob, KotR - Feel like an easy keep. Can't fetch up something w/ Heath that can cast both Bob and Fire, but you have plenty of action with options of T2 chalice or PFire into T3 Bob + Wasteland or T3 KotR
- Heath, Savannah, Wasteland, Thicket, Loam, ScOoze, Bob - Another keep, esp nice that we have a turn 1 play. No removal sucks, but we could quickly get a loam + wasteland/draw engine online and a Bob that could draw an extra card or two.
- Catacombs, Grove, Bayou, Taiga, Forest, Thicket, Chalice - This feels bad, but I find myself keeping hands like this since we have T2 chalice, a T1 play, and we'll have a few turns to actually draw action. Probably bad though :(
- Heath, Savannah, Decay, Decay, Library, KotR, PFire - Snap it off
- Heath, Taiga, Wasteland, Arbor, PFire, PFire, GSZ - We can't ramp off of the GSZ T1 and we have no accelerates, chalice, or Grove to pair w/ the PFires. Feels like a mulligan?
It obviously gets more difficult when you're on G2 and G3 and might be searching for your sideboard games in your hand. I'm much more aggressive w/ those openers (mostly against combo really), but tend to be more willing to keep shady 7s in the dark.
Would keep 1 and 2
Almost certain keep 4
Some doubts put still leaning on keep 3
Ship it 5
In my last outing with Loam, I faced Miracles in three rounds out of six. I won the first against a very experienced Miracles player. Then I got paired against some unknown guy, but the judge re-paired me against another very experienced player, who was also on Miracles. I got him in game 1, lost to Entreat in game 2, and in game 3 I lost when he drew into his second Entreat (I pressured him into using the first defensively). I might have scraped through that one if I had simply jammed Gaddock Teeg into Countertop+open mana and hoped for the best, but that seemed unwise at the time.
In rounds 3-5 I faced Elves twice (going 1-1) and GW 12post once (He had Cloudposts to og over the top on me; I had Wastelands for his Cloudposts, he had Pithing Needles for my Wastelands, I had Chalice on 1. And Abrupt Decay. And Life from the Loam).
In round 6 I was really, really tired, but with the best breakers on 3-2 I was pretty much a lock for top 8 with a win. So of course I got paired against Miracles again. This time it was my round 2 opponent's younger brother, who is also a quite experienced control player. Suffice to say, my concentration was shot and I managed to keep an opener without black mana in game 1. I then proceed to draw a handful of Bobs and Decays. In game 2 I mulligan to 5 (IIRC) but I still have turn 1 Bob; he has StP. I have turn 2 Knight, he has nothing and takes 4 the next turn (IIRC I had no forests or plains in play). I decide to press my advantage before he can draw into an answer and jam another Knight. He hits the Terminus and it's all over.
My list is pretty stock, except I run a single Stirring Wildwood over a cycling land and the fourth Decay over DRS. I had a second Teeg in the side as well as Thalia, Garruk and otherwise the usual suspects.
Is there anything else I can add to make Miracles favorable? Thrun? I'm so sick of losing to that deck it's beginning to turn me off Legacy.
If it doesn't make n00bs cry, it's probably not my deck.
Your config seems really good at beating them. 4 Decays main and a second Teeg post-SB is great.
I would say that what is stopping you are the small mistakes(which are huge in the deck). As you said, a simple no black mana hand, or not jamming a card when you just can't play around stuff.
I lost against miracles last week also for not playing a GSZ for Teeg in a specific Turn, only card I could lose was an entreat. Gotta stay sharp! Drink lots of water and stay focused
If you're playing Kronberger's list, this deck is already very strong against Miracles. You will still lose to their nut draws, but you'll win more often than not.
I've been playing this deck for a few weeks and have run into a number of situations where I want to be able to use Loam to find a threat. This usually happens when I'm significantly ahead but my opponent hasn't conceded yet. My first move was to trim a Bob (from Kronberger's list) for a singleton Lingering Souls and it's been good but it's not quite as great as I'd hoped. I'm toying around with the idea of a Mishra's Factory or a Treetop Village, but I did see someone mention Stirring Wildwood on the previous page. Is there a general consensus on creature lands as good/bad/not good enough?
I dont think manlands are absolutley no goes but the space is the problem, same with the DD/Stage combo (in addition that it makes the manabase more unstable).
I would not cut the 4th bob for it because he's to important for the deck, if your meta allows it I would probably cut the Maze of Ith or maybe a cycle land...
If you really want to play a manland I would go with Treetop Village or Nantuko Monastery even if the new manlands are real duals...
Currently playing
Maze of Ith wins way too many games for me to cut it, though I haven't missed the 4th Bob at all. I think Monastery would be great if it made colored mana. I'll give the Village a spin this week and see how it goes.
It does not sound like you need help here. The play here is to:I'm significantly ahead but my opponent hasn't conceded yet
Apologize to your opponent, fetch up dryad arbor, and wait the 2-3 turns it will take for you to draw some action.
If you loam, your chances of getting a threat do not really increase with a manland. You are still at just pfire and your 2 manlands. If you had cycle lands there would not be an issue as they are the best of both worlds.
I do like playing Stirring Wildwood for other reasons tho. It is a good threat against the abrupt decay decks (especially when they go to kill your knight), it eats delvers, it is an extra threat for when games get grindy, it is also a threat they can't kill unless they disrupt your loam in those very late games. A manland isn't something I recommend everyone to play but it is a reasonable option to increase threat density and provide the above utility. Non-Wildwood manlands are either worse on your mana, or worse threats.
Which games does Maze of Ith win for you?
Last edited by apocolyps6; 01-25-2016 at 02:25 AM.
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