Hi,
I've seen no chat about this new card in the thread :
It seems pretty good :
- it's cheap
- sac-engine
- make you gain life
- got Deathtouch and nice body : 2/3 Deathtouch for CCM 2
- the second ability may be irrelevant but can be nice when we're in the late game
Nope ?
It's not GSZ-able, it dies to Bolt and Abrupt Decay and can't take over a game like Scavenging Ooze (which it would be competing with) can.
So no.
My only problem with the all in path plan is chalice on one in post board games. like I said tho I may opt for the 3/3 split on path and decay to help with bigmonster.deck. I typically decay mox diamond/ exploration on sight leaving chalice the ability to sneak in during post board games slowing down my path/needle deployments. My round six lands opponent got stuck behind on mana by only playing the single basic and missing a color by leaning too heavily on mox making that thought process sound.
@arianrhod- I worry that if I write off all the turn one decks (belcher tinfins opps) and all the fatty/ramp decks(mud/turbo eldrazi/sneak show/reanimator/turbo lage/lands) that im not giving myself a fair shot in an unkown meta. I understand your logic that you cant beat everything but my board could afford to loose the hymm and that just leaves one more cut to squeeze two bridges in improve a lot of traditionally unwinnable/ poor matches that aleady have some splash hate in the board but need a little more oompf. i havent triend the bridges yet but i may give them a whirl next go around.
Keep in mind that Ensnaring Bridge is frequently a card that people board in against us, as well. Looping Rhinos with Nightmare becomes the only real wincon at that point.Originally Posted by uncletiggy
My philosophy is based off of %s. Keep two things in mind: Nic Fit is fundamentally a metagame predator -- it's an especially versatile one, and can be tuned to beat almost anything, but at the end of the day it's still happiest when the meta is favorable for it to prey upon. Also, there are very few people in any given room that run any of the decks you listed. Do they exist? Yes, for sure. Sneak in particular has a propensity for being more popular than it really should -- although Sneak is the one deck amongst everything you listed that I feel we actually have a good shot against, even without any special attention paid. Slaughter Games wrecks them, and Cabal Therapy is already one of the best cards you can be playing against that deck.
A fun fact that's worth remembering, incidentally, is that to the "core" decks of the format (your RUG Delvers, Shardlesses, Miracles, etc), WE are the boogeyman that you're worried about. We're definitely in that category of unpopular / low population decks that can be very scary to people.
As someone who has been on BUG midrange for the last month I can def say that running into siege rhinos would certainly be an unpleasant experience.
Thanks, it was more luck then skill but it was fun to get Top8 in the frist big tourament.
I will play some games with this before I do more changes.
Trinishere was nice against Show and Tell, his cantrips costed three and so it slowed him down a bit. I am going to remove the Deed in the sideborad for another one. I never wanted to sideborad in Deed to any match-up, it was matchups I was already in favour in. And I need more combo hate.
Either way id like to atleast try them out between rhinoing deathrite and the two towers and having control over the hand size that bridge is checking squeeking in an alpha strike is possible. it may be worth it if i decide to frequent that store and board more specifically to that meta game. I also may just cut the hymm for another needle or say a vindicate? The vindicate is answer to jace that deed wont sweep up?
Probably the best answer, honestly. We're worrying over a fringe MUs pulling strong/god-hands.
Caught a few lists running 2x. I've tried it myself (even though it sucks lol).
@Ayli:
Despite the power creep in Magic overall, this card just isn't enough. Others mentioned all the main points. Again, this thing isn't green and even if it was, it would need to be better than Scooze. It's also a legend (which is a weakness unless it has shroud like Sigarda).
Very solid point. Definitely the reason I branched into this deck in the first place.
In other news, I may not be able to reach Mythic (important real life things creeping in). I'm curious what your list looks like. I'll send you a PM.
Alrihty, thanks for the input! Maybe its better in maverick/aggro loam or some KoR Deck where they play around with more lands. i found it intresting! might try it out in some kind of deck XD
Here's the list I'm running at Mythic this weekend:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Siege Rhino
2 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Notion Thief
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
I'll share my card-by-card / thought process now, and then go over what happens on the other side of the event. I'll also freely admit that I have no idea how this is going to go and am looking for data more than anything. It may be that the idea isn't actually functional and I'll just fall flat on my face, or it may be that the idea is amazing and crushes. My realistic expectation is that it will work to a nominal degree, and I'll have some tuning to do for the future, but the idea won't be rejected out of hand.
4 Vet + 2 DRS: This is where I've settled at this point. Coupled with the 3 Zeniths, this list has 9 early mana producers (junk lists have 10, since I run 4 Zeniths there). Some people prefer 3/3, 4/2 just feels a bit cleaner to me, and Veteran has some extra bonuses beyond Deathrite (doesn't get into Deathrite wars with opponent, draws StP like a lightning rod, etc).
3 Strix: Opted to put in the 3rd Strix over the 2/1 Strix/Oracle split that I previously had. The flying deathtouch is just too relevant, and if I can z@2, I'd probably rather get a Deathrite in the midgame or a Vet early anyway. Also, Meren value is -insane- with Strix.
Nissa/E.Wit: I don't know what more I can really say about this card. I don't think I can sing her praises any higher. E.Wit is just a staple of every variety, nothing to say there.
3 Rhinos: I think that 3 Rhinos is better than 4 in general, and certainly with white as the splash color. 4 Rhinos clogs too much, in my opinion. Nic Fit has enough strong 4-drops to run that it doesn't need to take up infinite space with Rhino.
Venser & Meren: Both of these cards are on the watch list for the weekend. Meren has the potential for some severe abuse in this deck, and Venser gives us maindeck stack interaction as well as a way around troublesome permanents that we can't interact with otherwise. The main strike against them is that they're 4-drops, which clunks up the curve a bit. I expect that after this weekend, I'll be cutting one of them, but I want to see which one of them performs better and what cards I need to put into the deck before I make the decision.
2 Thragtusks: This may be a little surprising since there are also 3 Rhinos. There are several reasons for this. The first is that BUG has a critical weakness at the 5-spot compared to Junk, since it doesn't have a Sigarda or a Baneslayer. Sidisi is playable, but not really what this deck wants to be doing. Mimeoplasm is great, but color intensive and requires a certain board state to shine. Thrag is the old standby. Rhino may be the shiny new kid on the block, but Thrag has always pulled its weight and does exactly what you need it to. Thrag's additional lifegain helps me feel more secure against aggro matchups, as well as lets me draw a bunch of cards with Painful Truths without feel bad. Plus, there's the ludicrous Deadeye synergy.
Deadeye and ConSphinx: The two best 6-drops that any color has to offer, hands down, and part of the reason to go core blue in the first place. Nic Fit as a deck is a story told by cards that either are, or should be, banned in EDH. Both of these six drops qualify for that. They look to be even better than usual in this deck, since they have a full recursion suite to protect them as well as enough lower-drop bombs that the opponent should be completely out of gas by the time we get to this point. Also, linking Deadeye and Rhino will ACTUALLY kill someone very, very quickly, instead of just making a ton of value as Deadeye lists have done in the past.
4 Therapy: yup.
3 Zenith: There's enough blue creatures here, and enough card draw, that I feel comfortable going down to 3 of these in this list. Still agreed that 4 is generally more correct, but I think that this list is a bit of an exception to that.
2 Painful Truths: This is basically taking the slot of the other 2 Tops. With 5 heavy lifegain creatures in the deck, I'm not worried about cutting myself too much, and I'd rather just flat draw the cards as opposed to draw them and then put two back with Brainstorm (plus Jace is taking the role of Brainstorm in this deck). It's possible that there should be a third copy in the deck, but I want to start with 2 and see where we go from there.
2 Decay: I couldn't find more room for maindeck removal than this. I wanted to maindeck the Pulse, but it'll have to do. Decay is easily the best removal spell to maindeck when you have limited room.
3 Deed / 1 Nightmare: The staple enchantments. Again, Nightmare gets BETTER with Meren -- it's not an "either or" situation. When both are present in the same deck, each one is more powerful than when they are on their own. Even if Meren ends up coming out of this deck in the long run, Nightmare will stay because it's absolutely nutty in this deck.
2 Jace TMS: Still the best walker that money can buy. More often going to be a 4-mana brainstorm/unsummon bot than a wincon in this deck, but it's nice to have the extra backup plan if needed.
Ashiok: This one probably will raise a lot of eyebrows. I actually have quite a fondness for Ashiok and was planning on sideboarding one. As I looked over the deck, though, I came to the conclusion that the deck's 3-spot was weak and needed an extra threat. Courser is a solid option, but it's not very threatening. The best UG 3-drops are Trygon and Edric, neither of which I'm particularly interested in at this time, although Edric has performed for me in the past in blue nic fit lists. That leaves threatening non-creature 3-drops, which Ashiok is very, very close to the top of that list across all colors. She's also never a dead draw against anything, since she's equally strong against both combo decks and fair decks. She screws up Miracles' Tops while threatening to take their Mentors, demands an immediate Decay from Shardless or will run away with the game super quickly, and can exile key combo pieces from storm while building to a game-winning ultimate quite quickly.
Manabase: Considered -1 Bayou -1 Confluence +2 fetches, but opted out of that once I cut the Brainstorms for removal. For the things I have that care about shuffles, I think six is enough. Again, I'll keep an eye on it moving forward, but it should be fine the way it is.
//sideboard
Slaughters + Taiga: The transformational package for combo. Out with the Rhinos and the Savannah, in with the Slaughters and Taiga. Vs Miracles you can just bring this package in and keep the Rhinos, since they don't disrupt your mana base and you want more power and less air in your deck postboard, which also nets you an important 23rd land when Vet-less.
Plague: Nuts against Elves; fine vs Miracles, Grixis Control, and Young Peezy delver decks. Has fringe benefits vs Storm, Dredge, Stoneblade (True-Name) and a couple other decks. Wanted a second copy, but wanted other things more.
Pulse/Decay: I think I like splitting this 1/1 better than just sideboarding the other two Decays. The Pulse gives you a a more versatile answer and can be boarded in vs a wider range of matchups.
2 Carpets: been a while since I was on these. This deck has a sufficiently powerful enough topend that I think that having a pair of Carpets will help in blue matchups a lot. Plus, it color fixes and accelerates into earlier Slaughter Games against a lot of the combo decks. Besides, I like just flat invalidating people who think that Daze and Pierce are playable against Nic Fit.
Lotion Thief: This is mostly here as a Shardless trump more than anything else, although being able to get generic blue decks off their Brainstorms is also fine. I don't think that it's ever worth running more than one copy of this guy in legacy, but I do think that the first copy justifies itself pretty easily.
Glen Elendra: Another reason to play blue, bottom line. Nuts against anything with spells in the deck: miracles, shardless, any combo deck, half the fair decks. It even has value against elves.
Thoughtseizes + Flusters: Solid 4-of "fuck your combo" suite, split down the middle to attack different things and come from different angles. Pretty standard here, honestly.
-----------
So there you go, there's my list and my rationales. A lot of this is grounded in deeper philosophical realizations about Nic Fit as a deck in general, which I don't have the time to type up currently. I'll try to voice some of them when I post again on Sunday with the results from Mythic.
Top8 @ JK open 174 player event
Interesting list. Would love to read a report on this one.
Explorer Pod
Moritz Mathes
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Restoration Angel
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Siege Rhino
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Wingmate Roc
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Hymn of Tourach
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Painful Quandary
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Sounds really familiar ;)
So it was you! Great perfomance!
Edit: ok it was not Ralf...
Last edited by Bobmans; 01-07-2016 at 01:01 PM.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
No, not me ! But the list is very close to the Abzan POD list I was suggesting a few pages back.
@Arianrhod: Thanks for the PM. I greatly appreciate your thoughts :)
My advice for Mythic
Maindeck: I think Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver needs to go. I think you should run Decay #3 or Pulse #1 in its place. You reference how strong the card is, but I think it is better served in the SB. You're light on spot-removal and even mentioned wanting Pulse somewhere. Not sure how you can react to a pesky permanent once it's on the table. Only 2 decay and 3 deed. If facing an opposing PWer (Jace, etc), you have nothing in the main to shoot it down.
Sideboard: I'd cut Plague for Toxic Deluge (Elves hasn't been a factor at Mythic in a while -- Deluge much better IMO at handling top decks at the moment because it wraths everything).
1 of your [Decay/Pulse] moves to the main -- trade this straight up for Ashiok. Swap both Carpets for Pithing Needle.
People in this threads face when they saw how expensive phyrexian tower is now:
As for some useful post content:
My core issue with Nic Fit lately has been the rise in popularity of Grixis Delver feat. Stifle and co. Stifle is one of the best cards vs us because there are limitless targets and sometimes just having 1 activated/triggered ability stifled can mean the end of the road for us. How have you all been dealing with the surge in popularity of Stifle based delver decks?
Wow. This idea of cashing out is looking more and more appealing when $1.50 cards are suddenly $30.People in this threads face when they saw how expensive phyrexian tower is now:
As for some useful post content:
My core issue with Nic Fit lately has been the rise in popularity of Grixis Delver feat. Stifle and co. Stifle is one of the best cards vs us because there are limitless targets and sometimes just having 1 activated/triggered ability stifled can mean the end of the road for us. How have you all been dealing with the surge in popularity of Stifle based delver decks?
@Grixis Delver: Honestly, I build out from a removal suite of Deeds, Decays, Sword/Path, and Toxic D. While what you say is correct, the Grixis decks bank on about 12-16 creatures pulling the win. A large chunk of the deck is durdley spells so they can effectively have Delver and Pyro.The variants with DRS absolutely need that little guy in order to function. In my experience, blowing up one of their threats early back their clock considerably.
Has anyone thought about matter reshaper in Explorer Pod?
I plan on running P Fire Rhino Fit (splashing for 2 rhinos and a couple of sideboard cards) on Sunday at local IQ.
I was 2-2 at a smaller store event last week
(Losing to Miracles, beating Sneak/Show, losing to Mono Sneak Attack, beating a unusual reanimator deck)
I'll get list up if anyone wants it.
Also, (Dr. Nick voice)Hi Everybody(/voice)
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
A buddy of mine plays the shit out of Grixis Delver. From what I've seen is that it can't handle a build with 4 PtE and the tools to look for them and/or recur those. The deck still plays only 12 to 14 threats. Handle those and you'll have all the time in the world. At the end of the day it's still delver.dec, so you should be happy to face it. It just might take some getting used to.People in this threads face when they saw how expensive phyrexian tower is now:
As for some useful post content:
My core issue with Nic Fit lately has been the rise in popularity of Grixis Delver feat. Stifle and co. Stifle is one of the best cards vs us because there are limitless targets and sometimes just having 1 activated/triggered ability stifled can mean the end of the road for us. How have you all been dealing with the surge in popularity of Stifle based delver decks?
PtE actually is a real necessity in this MU since they can run Gurmag Anglers, which you might miss with your Therapies. It's one of the few creatures that threaten most of ours so it's important to get rid of it.
All in all the MU still isn't all that bad. It just takes some getting used to the tricks Grixis Delver does. It's always fun to get out a Scavenging Ooze to start fucking with their DRS and ability to cast Angler. They really need to answer Ooze ASAP or it might just take over the entire game.
I'm a bug pod player, and i really would love to play Matter but... it's impossibile. If you draw him, you have no chance of play him...
So max 1x, and i don't think i would accept that risk.
@Pod top: very very nice <3 Pod forever
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