[Deck] U/G Infect

[Hopo]

insane number of singletons

Care to elaborate?

[Zombie]

Care to elaborate?

The card selection packages are usually slapdash - 4 Brainstorm, but then often odd assortments of 1 Crop, 1 Ponder, 1 Library. Singleton Wasteland with singleton Crop, the countersuites feel an odd mixture of 2s and 3s, and so on.

It's not so much singletons only, as much as a lot of numbers in Infect decks just looking damn weird and kind of unnatural coming from a Delver context.

(I crunched the ratios earlier and they roughly match RUGs, so that's not the problem, but the individual card choices)

[Jesture]

Hi all,

Does anyone have a good strategy to DeathBlade (UWBg)?

I think it's an incredible difficult match up, fighting through Stp, SnapMage -> more Stp, Jitte, Lili, Jace (big & small), Counterparts, Wasteland and multiple SB cards against us

It's really hard. I have come to the conclusion that I need to take Daze, Forze out when sideboarding and take Needle, Natualize, N.Claim and soft counters in (S.Pierce, Flusterstorm, Dispel) to fight card by card and not card disadvantage.

Any suggestions? I hate the match up.

Hey Polle. Currently at work so I'll provide a more detailed response later, but at first glance it seems like you're overboarding in the matchup. I used to have a similar problem against Jund, where my typical sideboard ins would be something like 3StP, 2 RiP, 2 Needle, 2 Flusterstorm, Grip, and Claim. In theory, it sounds great to have an answer for every single one of their threats. What you actually end up with though is 2 Flusterstorms in hand while the opponent casts rolling Tarmogoyfs, or discarding multiple copies of StP to an uncontested Lili +1, basically a mismatch of your answers to their questions. Counterspells are a nice catch-all that have a wider range and require fewer deck slots at the cost of being less strong in specific scenarios. By boarding them out, you're really diluting the power and speed of the deck which in turn leads to a longer game that we're not favored to win against Deathblade (Souls, zealous, and Snap StP overwhelms us in the end).

Consider leaving in 1-2 copies of FoW for high impact cards and leaving in Dazes on the play for tempo. I'd be less wild about boarding in your artifact hate, as the Needle does a fine job of shutting down both equipment and planeswalkers. Try to use soft permission to create a window to close the game out early, as their deck tends to thrive in the midrange of the game.

[Hopo]

The card selection packages are usually slapdash - 4 Brainstorm, but then often odd assortments of 1 Crop, 1 Ponder, 1 Library. Singleton Wasteland with singleton Crop, the countersuites feel an odd mixture of 2s and 3s, and so on.

It's not so much singletons only, as much as a lot of numbers in Infect decks just looking damn weird and kind of unnatural coming from a Delver context.

(I crunched the ratios earlier and they roughly match RUGs, so that's not the problem, but the individual card choices)

It's hard to evaluate because this deck has no generally accepted skeleton outside the 12 creatures/4 invigorate/4 nexus/4brainstorm. At first I thought the same as you but then I decided to do something about and changed the numbers. After all, the deck is basically built on Tom Ross's deck and he varies his list a lot between invitationals, opens and gp's. He had some weird numbers but many players have adjusted them from then on.

The most atypical thing is the 3 fow and 3 daze. This is understandable when you accept that the deck wants more to win than to control the game. I like the configuration because they are both 1-for-2's.

Good that you mentioned RUG delver because that's the closest comparison I have always thought of. We have roughly the same game plan, less disruption but our pump spells act as counters or removal a good part of the time so it's roughly the same.

I have personal issues with lists that play less than 4 Vines of Vastwood. That card is tailormade for infect so 2's and 3's really stick out in lists. I play 4 and I think everybody should. It is only bad (or less good) in combo matchups so I can accept lower numbers when expecting mostly combo.

When you see singletons, they are usually tutor targets or classified in a broader way: 1 Crop rotation is not a single crop but the 5th Nexus, second Pendelhaven or Wasteland. My 1-of Flusterstorm is the much needed 9th counter and my 1 Stifle is my 12th disruption spell against combos. I play 1 Become Immense because I want another (mostly) cheap and effective pump spell but hate to draw the second one and strand it in my hand.

I also have wondered the single Ponder and Library but decided against them since singles are random. I want to maximixe already existing cantrips before adding makeshifts. Okay, my cantrips are 4 Brainstorm and 3 Gitaxian probes. I feel for the people who don't like Probe as a full cantrip but it has other merits that help to manage the game. I have seen lists with 4 Ponder but don't know how they have performed.

[shocked439]

The card selection packages are usually slapdash - 4 Brainstorm, but then often odd assortments of 1 Crop, 1 Ponder, 1 Library. Singleton Wasteland with singleton Crop, the countersuites feel an odd mixture of 2s and 3s, and so on.

It's not so much singletons only, as much as a lot of numbers in Infect decks just looking damn weird and kind of unnatural coming from a Delver context.

(I crunched the ratios earlier and they roughly match RUGs, so that's not the problem, but the individual card choices)

Comparing to delver variants is a bit misleading. Delver decks tend to be tempo oriented decks, this is a combo deck with a turn 2 kill. The goal of the deck is to go fast.

As was already mentioned there is no set rules for this deck beyond the 12 creatures, 4 brainstorm, 4 invigorate, 2 berserk, 4 inkmoth.

Ponder is less optimal than brainstorm when it comes to drawing out your combo pieces, but the shuffle effect is sometimes relevant.

Playing crop rotation makes utility lands like karakas, pendelhaven, wasteland fine as one ofs if you play two rotations it's like playing 3 of any one of them with two copies at instant speed.

Gitaxian probe is a great cantrip with the added benefit of gaining information 2-3 is perfect.

Vines of Vastwood is interesting. It protects against abrupt decay, but most of the time invigorate is just better so running less than 4 is ok.

[Hopo]

Comparing to delver variants is a bit misleading. Delver decks tend to be tempo oriented decks, this is a combo deck with a turn 2 kill. The goal of the deck is to go fast.

I feel the opposite. Canadian Thresh is the closest comparison: we try play a threat fast and protect it until the game's over. This involves countering key spells and pushing the opponent slightly off balance with timed disruption - Sometimes Dazing a spell just to get their last land tapped is what is needed to win the game next turn. Our creatures are crappier then theirs so we need to pump them. Therefore we don't have room for all the control spells and cantrips.

[Zombie]

It's hard to evaluate because this deck has no generally accepted skeleton outside the 12 creatures/4 invigorate/4 nexus/4brainstorm. At first I thought the same as you but then I decided to do something about and changed the numbers. After all, the deck is basically built on Tom Ross's deck and he varies his list a lot between invitationals, opens and gp's. He had some weird numbers but many players have adjusted them from then on.

The most atypical thing is the 3 fow and 3 daze. This is understandable when you accept that the deck wants more to win than to control the game. I like the configuration because they are both 1-for-2's.

Good that you mentioned RUG delver because that's the closest comparison I have always thought of. We have roughly the same game plan, less disruption but our pump spells act as counters or removal a good part of the time so it's roughly the same.

qomori's list was the one that inspired the crunching:

UG Ebola:
Mana: 20 (inc. Waste, Pendelhaven, Hierarch, no Nexus)
Threats: 12 (no Hierarch, inc. Nexus)
Pump: 7 (no Vines)
Protection: 14 (inc. Vines, Probe)
Selection: 7

RUG:
Mana: 18 (inc. Waste)
Threats: 12
Removal: 6
Protection: 16 (inc. Probe)
Selection: 8

[shocked439]

I feel the opposite. Canadian Thresh is the closest comparison: we try play a threat fast and protect it until the game's over. This involves countering key spells and pushing the opponent slightly off balance with timed disruption - Sometimes Dazing a spell just to get their last land tapped is what is needed to win the game next turn. Our creatures are crappier then theirs so we need to pump them. Therefore we don't have room for all the control spells and cantrips.

Rug delver tries to stick a threat and use permission and mana denial to win the game while protecting their one threat. They have no combo element to the deck. While it is not a true combo deck like Omni tell it functions a lot more like a combo deck than a tempo deck. You are absolutely right sometimes dazing things to get them to tap out is all it takes to win, but that is why limiting the permission suite and knowing what to counter is key. I came to infect from delver decks and they play much different. RUG delver wants to play spells on their opponents turn and work in a more reactive way, infect is proactive and pushing the opponent. Sure the core construction can be considered similar play the play style is much different.

[Zombie]

Speaking of playing, how well does Ebola kill combo?

[Jesture]

Rug delver tries to stick a threat and use permission and mana denial to win the game while protecting their one threat. They have no combo element to the deck. While it is not a true combo deck like Omni tell it functions a lot more like a combo deck than a tempo deck. You are absolutely right sometimes dazing things to get them to tap out is all it takes to win, but that is why limiting the permission suite and knowing what to counter is key. I came to infect from delver decks and they play much different. RUG delver wants to play spells on their opponents turn and work in a more reactive way, infect is proactive and pushing the opponent. Sure the core construction can be considered similar play the play style is much different.

Kinda with Hopo on this one, Infect feels more like a delver deck than a combo deck, especially in fair matchups. I've never thought of Infect as a proactive deck, there's just too much potential to get blown out by sweepers or unconditional spot removal if you take the role of the aggressor. Pump spells are inherent card disadvantage, you run into a lot of bad 1 for 2 trades if you're regularly taking the initiative in games.

There's definitely room to steal early wins with the right combination of cards, but I'd put that at around 5% of your games, maybe 10% if you're really good at gold fishing.

[Svyelunite]

I feel like Infect is usually pretty proactive. You can't be reckless, but the primary use for your counterspells is the same as how Sneak and Show and Reanimator use them. Protect your combo and make it resolve. We can grind some, but only in certain matchups, and only with appropriate draws.

[Jesture]

I feel like Infect is usually pretty proactive. You can't be reckless, but the primary use for your counterspells is the same as how Sneak and Show and Reanimator use them. Protect your combo and make it resolve. We can grind some, but only in certain matchups, and only with appropriate draws.

Maybe it's just semantics here, but I feel the extent of our proactivity is limited to resolving a threat. Of course you're going to go for a lethal sequence of pump spells in some situations, but I feel as though they're more often used to keep creatures alive. Most of what you're doing is done at instant speed as a reaction to your opponents answers, it generally feels wrong to be the one forcing action with spells.

Related topic, how many of us feel this deck is more tempo than combo?

[Hopo]

Related topic, how many of us feel this deck is more tempo than combo?

It's less combo then majority of people think. Not sure if tempo is the correct term, though. As a side note, this is one of the few aggro-combo-control decks out there. All roles are there to choose from but none of them is significantly strong.

[Zombie]

Kinda with Hopo on this one, Infect feels more like a delver deck than a combo deck, especially in fair matchups. I've never thought of Infect as a proactive deck, there's just too much potential to get blown out by sweepers or unconditional spot removal if you take the role of the aggressor. Pump spells are inherent card disadvantage, you run into a lot of bad 1 for 2 trades if you're regularly taking the initiative in games.

There's definitely room to steal early wins with the right combination of cards, but I'd put that at around 5% of your games, maybe 10% if you're really good at gold fishing.

Yeah, Elves is much the same thing. It's a midrange deck in a similar meta slot as Shardless, that role is the one it actually does splendidly, and does a passable Storm impression when the opportunity presents itself. It's not a combo deck primarily unless very explicitly built for it, but most people just look for the goldfish turn where the deck is pretty fast.

Related topic, how many of us feel this deck is more tempo than combo?

Infect is a tempo deck, through and through. The interesting thing about the deck is how much its threat level enables you to play mindgames to a far greater degree than most decks in the format or even Magic at all. Magic is typically a game of playing technically solid, even for really explosive decks.

Infect is unique in that every attack *can* kill you, so every attack can be an poke or empty threat, or it can be going for the throat. That threat level allows some unique bluffs that just don't exist otherwise. Storm and Elves can't routinely do that, S&T can't afford it. The only equivalent I can think of offhand is D&T activating Vial. That's another situation where you just have to decide if the threat is empty or not.

[ChemicalBurns]

Hello everyone!

Haven't really posted in the Infect thread but I've been playing the deck quite a bit (along with my other primary decks, RUG Delver and D&T), but the recent discussion of the deck's dual nature as a tempo-combo deck has really piqued my interest. So I thought I'd pitch in with my thoughts and my list if that's all good.

I think Gerry Thompson's article on the "False Tempo" archetype is pretty nice - Infect fits very well into this and kind of reiterates what Zombie just mentioned: that Infect's power can come from unique bluffs, putting fear into your opponent and nickel and diming them to get the win. Or just sometimes t2 killing as well.

Personally I have preferred this approach, and as such have been playing Infect lists for some time which should look like shells very, very reminiscent of Delver variants (I play those lot as well). In the end, I actually think the deck resembles TC-era UR Delver somewhat (not as busted, of course), in that you act as as a half-assey aggro deck in the beginning of the game with light disruption, destabilising your opponent, and then killing the opponent with a flurry of burn spells (or in Infect's case, pump spells like Invigorate) along with some busted spells (Berserk and Become Immense) as part of the endgame.

Anyway, my list:

Creatures: (12)
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Noble Hierarch

Non-Creature Spells: (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
3 Vines of the Vastwood
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Berserk
2 Become Immense
1 Spell Pierce

Lands: (18)
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Pendelhaven
1 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Submerge
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Crop Rotation
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Claim
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland

The four Ponders and the four Force/Daze are probably the most divergent things here, and again, it's mores to push this list into the tempo spectrum rather than the combo spectrum. In fact, that's how I feel about Infect - deck lists, and also depending on match ups, allow Infect to exist on a sliding scale. On one end it performs as a Delver deck with a combo/pump flurry finish disrupting just enough to prevent the opponent (to answer Zombie's question, this is mainly how I feel vs. combo) from getting to their endgame before Infect's reach kill them off. On the other end it's a super-fast combo deck with counter backup.

I guess the lack of white splash due to my love of Become Immense and hatred of its dissynergy with Rest in Peace is also something. This list has very few flexes, with only the 3rd Vines and Spell Pierce as what I feel are flex, and these could be a range of things I want to try. Shocked439's utilisation of baby Jace seems pretty interesting as a Sylvan Library-esque slot that synergies quite well with our game plan, since Jace's susceptibility to removal is fine in a deck like ours that has plenty of potentially game ending threats.

Also Hopo, to answer your thoughts on 4 Ponder, it certainly makes the deck slower - you spend more time cantripping around rather than having lots of business spells - but I feel the consistency it adds makes up for this. I feel most importantly without Ponder I've had tough times with openers without Infecters, but with Ponder finding a threat has been much easier, allowing the deck to keep no-infected hands happily when a Ponder is there. It also feeds Become Immense faster.

A few other cards I'd also like to discuss:
- Display of Dominance. Loved this in DTT era when it fought Decay and destroyed Omniscience; any thoughts in this as anti Decay tech but also as a CB and Jace killer? It would likely be in the SB Vines slot (which has also been at times a Spellskite).
- Ensnare: I keep seeing this in deck lists... And have no idea why people have been trying it. Seems... Interesting?

Thanks everyone!

[Zombie]

I think Gerry Thompson's article on the "False Tempo" archetype is pretty nice - Infect fits very well into this and kind of reiterates what Zombie just mentioned: that Infect's power can come from unique bluffs, putting fear into your opponent and nickel and diming them to get the win. Or just sometimes t2 killing as well.

It's something I noticed way back when I played a ton of Mono-G Infect in Pauper. The only reason that deck ever worked was because anything in the red zone could just kill the opponent then and there. It was normal Magic, but the high stakes made it something strange. Now that I stop to think about it, creature-based combo decks have been my jam for pretty much my entire Magic history. It's amazing to be able to play normal Magic but then just "have it".

Personally I have preferred this approach, and as such have been playing Infect lists for some time which should look like shells very, very reminiscent of Delver variants (I play those lot as well). In the end, I actually think the deck resembles TC-era UR Delver somewhat (not as busted, of course), in that you act as as a half-assey aggro deck in the beginning of the game with light disruption, destabilising your opponent, and then killing the opponent with a flurry of burn spells (or in Infect's case, pump spells like Invigorate) along with some busted spells (Berserk and Become Immense) as part of the endgame.

Anyway, my list:

Creatures: (12)
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
4 Noble Hierarch

Non-Creature Spells: (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
3 Vines of the Vastwood
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Berserk
2 Become Immense
1 Spell Pierce

Lands: (18)
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Pendelhaven
1 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Submerge
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Crop Rotation
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Claim
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland

The four Ponders and the four Force/Daze are probably the most divergent things here, and again, it's mores to push this list into the tempo spectrum rather than the combo spectrum. In fact, that's how I feel about Infect - deck lists, and also depending on match ups, allow Infect to exist on a sliding scale. On one end it performs as a Delver deck with a combo/pump flurry finish disrupting just enough to prevent the opponent (to answer Zombie's question, this is mainly how I feel vs. combo) from getting to their endgame before Infect's reach kill them off. On the other end it's a super-fast combo deck with counter backup.

I like the look of this list a lot.

[Zombie]

Goldfished it a bit. Feels nice and smooth thus far, but would probably like another threat in the maindeck.

[Hopo]

Goldfished it a bit. Feels nice and smooth thus far, but would probably like another threat in the maindeck.

That is a built-in feature of the lists without Crop Rotation :)

[Zombie]

That is a built-in feature of the lists without Crop Rotation :)

Yup. We'll see if I add one to the main. Thus far the deck feels pretty good, though.

Why is no one running a Loam in the board like RUG pilots are? We have Wasteland, cheap to activate manlands that can chump things to death and kill people so we get endless threats unlike Delver pilots, and have crop rotation to put stuff in the yard and manadorks to facilitate casting things.

[Hopo]

Yup. We'll see if I add one to the main. Thus far the deck feels pretty good, though.

Why is no one running a Loam in the board like RUG pilots are? We have Wasteland, cheap to activate manlands that can chump things to death and kill people so we get endless threats unlike Delver pilots, and have crop rotation to put stuff in the yard and manadorks to facilitate casting things.

We have a Wasteland. That's enough of a difference.