[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

[Mr.C]

I guess you don't exactly play paper mtg, right?

Not really. I have proxy decks for vintage and legacy, and that's it. Some casual decks too, but the majority have printouts instead of cards. I pretty much quit buying cards for personal use in March 2010. Call me when they abolish the RL like they heavily implied they would...

For now, I enjoy the wheeling and dealing with no attachment whatsoever.

[Dice_Box]

Call me when they abolish the RL like they heavily implied they would...

Where did this happen?

[Mr.C]

Where did this happen?

Around when DD:PvC and FtV:Relics came out.

They flew Menedian and Ben B. out to Washington, where they both overwhelmingly supported abolishing it (especially Ben B.):

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...?Article=18824

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...rved_List.html

The mood at the time was that "yep, they're gonna can it". Forums, everywhere. They had just reprinted Mox Diamond and Negator. There was Wheel of Fortune, Morphling and Thawing Glaciers due to come out.

There's a huge-ass thread on MTGSalvation regarding it. I'm still bitter; Wizards effectively killed my favorite format then and there, and the way they did it was a slap in my face as a Legacy player. It's awesome that they decided to cater to whoever is hoarding Magic cards, but as a player I felt physically ill. Thanks for giving every signal that they were going to do something, then turning around and not doing it *and* not giving any explanation whatsoever.

Edit:

Oh yeah, there was this post on the Wizards forums before FtV:R came out:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/phyrexia-coalition-pics/

Relevant part:

Some of you might be surprised to see Phyrexian Negator. It is true that while we’ve been able to make premium versions of cards on the reserved list, we’ve so far only used them for promotional purposes (Negator was a judge promo, for example). We’ve taken a look at our special products and feel that we can create a better game experience for you by taking this step. How cool would it have been if Sliver Queen was in the Premium Deck Series?? Don’t worry that we’ve lost our minds. When From the Vault: Relics comes out, you won’t see these cards: [Shows pics of Black Lotus and Moxes]

We’ve taken a look at our special products and feel that we can create a better game experience for you by taking this step. How cool would it have been if Sliver Queen was in the Premium Deck Series??

I'm sure a few of the older members here remember the shitshow that followed afterwards. I wonder what would have happened if twitter and reddit were as huge as they are now, when this went down...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Not really. I have proxy decks for vintage and legacy, and that's it. Some casual decks too, but the majority have printouts instead of cards. I pretty much quit buying cards for personal use in March 2010. Call me when they abolish the RL like they heavily implied they would...

For now, I enjoy the wheeling and dealing with no attachment whatsoever.

Sorry, I wasn't precise. What I meant is that you don't play tournament Magic. I guess that it'll be a painful experience without the "needed" cards, but I see that you went even further ahead. I appreciate your decision and congratulate on your strength. However the next necessary step is... well, you know.

I played this game for fun. Seeing how it turns into business makes me sad. Of course, I could also start dicking around in this stock market, but you know, I'm not interested. If I'd wanted another job, I could have find one. Magic was a relaxation and a cheap hobby of mine, even back then when I joined the Eternal community. Also, every time I open such a thread like this, I'm traumatized over and over, and this spreads all across the board, community, lgs, experience.

I dislike this trend. Are there people who have amazing collections that make them happy? Are there people that became really rich due to MtG? Sure they are. More power to them. But I don't want to have anything in common with this.

[jrsthethird]

Hypothetical question:

What if Hasbro/WOTC does go against their word and break the Reserved List, for a limited (think original MMA) print run of Legacy/Eternal Masters, featuring, at mythic (or super mythic, like Expeditions or Power 9 in VMA):

Dual Lands
Tabernacle
Chains of Meph
Moat
Gaea's Cradle
Serra's Sanctum
Mox Diamond
other misc. Reserved value cards

What if they decide the monster sales and resurgence of Eternal formats is worth the risk of possible legal repercussions from a couple dozen collectors/hoarders, and it turns out the collectors don't lose money at all (see: Tarmogoyf reprinted twice)?

Clearly the vast majority of people here hate the Expedition treatment. If they printed foil dual lands that looked like that, would you even want them? Sure you'd use 'em if it's what you got, but the Revised version would hold up demand because it's decidedly more pimp/rare.

[Dice_Box]

Clearly the vast majority of people here hate the Expedition treatment. If they printed foil dual lands that looked like that, would you even want them? Sure you'd use 'em if it's what you got, but the Revised version would hold up demand because it's decidedly more pimp/rare.

The thing is, the price of the Expeditions has everything to do with artifical limited supply. It's Pimp factor notwithstanding the exclusivity of the cards, which is what you are actually paying for. You don't need to have the best card, but the one that other sucker can't afford. There are DnT players here who have foiled decks that plan to add these dam things to them. I mean these people have Eliot Wastes and they are getting these things. I think unless your talking crash the price printing, this idea will go nowhere. If they did crash the prices, only Alpha and Beta would hold money as people ditch white boarders for the new ones.

[Bosque]

Hypothetical question:
Clearly the vast majority of people here hate the Expedition treatment. If they printed foil dual lands that looked like that, would you even want them? Sure you'd use 'em if it's what you got, but the Revised version would hold up demand because it's decidedly more pimp/rare.

I hate foils. If there were enough printed to drop the prices of some current reserve staples that I'd like to get, I'd get the originals. If some new foil version was 1/2 the price, I'd get the new foil and grimace each time I draw one.

[JohnGalt]

Hypothetical question:

What if Hasbro/WOTC does go against their word and break the Reserved List, for a limited (think original MMA) print run of Legacy/Eternal Masters, featuring, at mythic (or super mythic, like Expeditions or Power 9 in VMA):

Dual Lands
Tabernacle
Chains of Meph
Moat
Gaea's Cradle
Serra's Sanctum
Mox Diamond
other misc. Reserved value cards

What if they decide the monster sales and resurgence of Eternal formats is worth the risk of possible legal repercussions from a couple dozen collectors/hoarders, and it turns out the collectors don't lose money at all (see: Tarmogoyf reprinted twice)?

Clearly the vast majority of people here hate the Expedition treatment. If they printed foil dual lands that looked like that, would you even want them? Sure you'd use 'em if it's what you got, but the Revised version would hold up demand because it's decidedly more pimp/rare.

Reserved List cards include a "premium" over non Reserved List ones. If they were reprinted, caeteris paribus, they wouldn't lose value just because supply grows, but also because they could be reprinted again in the future. When you buy a card included in the Reserved List you are assuming that it won't be reprinted again, so you pay a premium over a non Reserved List card. It's like some kind of insurance. When you buy a card not included in the list, you know it can be reprinted, and therefore the price could drop, so you are willing to pay less.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Reserved List cards include a "premium" over non Reserved List ones. If they were reprinted, caeteris paribus, they wouldn't lose value just because supply grows, but also because they could be reprinted again in the future. When you buy a card included in the Reserved List you are assuming that it won't be reprinted again, so you pay a premium over a non Reserved List card. It's like some kind of insurance. When you buy a card not included in the list, you know it can be reprinted, and therefore the price could drop, so you are willing to pay less.

That's not 100% true.
When you're buying USea you're buying it to play blue and black spells.
When you're buying Tarmogoyf, you're buying it to bash skulls and block dudes up to 4/5.
RL has very little to do with it.

Also, I'd love if they reprint Guay's PtE without foil. That'll be lovely.

[from Cairo]

Reserved List cards include a "premium" over non Reserved List ones. If they were reprinted, caeteris paribus, they wouldn't lose value just because supply grows, but also because they could be reprinted again in the future. When you buy a card included in the Reserved List you are assuming that it won't be reprinted again, so you pay a premium over a non Reserved List card. It's like some kind of insurance. When you buy a card not included in the list, you know it can be reprinted, and therefore the price could drop, so you are willing to pay less.

That's not 100% true.
When you're buying USea you're buying it to play blue and black spells.
When you're buying Tarmogoyf, you're buying it to bash skulls and block dudes up to 4/5.
RL has very little to do with it.

Also, I'd love if they reprint Guay's PtE without foil. That'll be lovely.

You might be buying Underground Sea so you have the option somewhere down the line to play Blue and Black spells, and it being a reserved list card [wont see reprint] thus you know that it will only become harder to obtain as time goes on.

You may put off buying Tarmogoyf to bash skulls and block dudes up to 4/5, because there have been 2 reprints and there's a possibility that it is printed a 4th time.

I don't have strong feelings about the reserved list existing or not. I've picked up my playsets like Intuition and Metalworker at times when they were at relative low points with the thought that they might be things I want to do and there's a finite copy of them being printed, but I'm also not going to rage quit if Eternal Masters has reserved list stuff in it. While it is bad for Wizard's integrity as a company and some people would quit, I think more would join thus it would probably benefit Eternal formats.

[big_ticket]

remember the days when shivan and serra angel/sengir own the play

[Bosque]

remember the days when shivan and serra angel/sengir own the play

Yep. Really just want to go back to that in so many ways. Serra Angel, Icy Manipulator and Meekstone. So much fun.

[Dice_Box]

That's not 100% true.
When you're buying USea you're buying it to play blue and black spells.
When you're buying Tarmogoyf, you're buying it to bash skulls and block dudes up to 4/5.
RL has very little to do with it.

To a point. There is something nice about thinking (not knowing, thinking) that your money is safe.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, of course! My point was that I don't think that the idea of piggy bank cards is on anybody's mind when he's considering what kind of purchase he'll do to finish his deck. Most of the people I came across during my two decades of magical gatherings were chasing the cards because they needed them into decks, not because they needed to fill the gap in RL binder/collection.

The reason why you postpone Goyf and rather go for USea is because the price of the dual is steadily rising while the lhurgoyf's price is at plateau. (Moreover you may play USeas in more decks/archetypes than Goyf.) This is partly due to RL, of course, but also due to the fact that there will never be a better land if you want to tap for U or B, and the price is justified. (Remember the times when USea was just five-ten times more expensive than URiver? That was hilarious.) I guess that Goyf hit its ceiling and will rise only slowly; maybe the price will just cover the inflation. RL stuff, particularly the duals might also already hit the cap. There won't be infinite number of Goyf's reprints (although there will be non-zero number of them, that's for sure), but the force between cards' purchases is a "need" to play them, not a wish to collect them. And as such, RL doesn't have that much of an impact on people's decision.

But IDK, maybe I'm wrong. I made no research to support my claim and I'm less and less inclined to discuss things that I didn't study.

[Havrekjex]

^I think that sounds reasonable. I only buy what I play, but I`m not sure I would buy Underground Seas if it didn`t feel as safe as it does. I trust that I can sell them at approximately the same price at some point, and it certainly influenced the decision. As it is right now it feels more like putting money on hold, like a deposit, than an actual purchase.

They`re expensive because of the RL, but the price is also justifiable or at least easier to swallow because of the RL. It feeds on itself, kind of, and spirals slowly out of control as abolishing the RL will be more devastating for card owners as each year passes and prices go up.

[JohnGalt]

That's not 100% true.
When you're buying USea you're buying it to play blue and black spells.
When you're buying Tarmogoyf, you're buying it to bash skulls and block dudes up to 4/5.
RL has very little to do with it.

Also, I'd love if they reprint Guay's PtE without foil. That'll be lovely.

You may buy (or sell) them for any reason, but the market in aggregate adds a premium to Reserved List cards. Do you think prices of Reserved List cards would be the same if it wasn't assumed that they won't be reprinted?

[kirkusjones]

You may buy (or sell) them for any reason, but the market in aggregate adds a premium to Reserved List cards. Do you think prices of Reserved List cards would be the same if it wasn't assumed that they won't be reprinted?

Is there any other collectible out there with some sort of guarantee of worth like the reserved list for magic cards? Additionally, does Marvel reprinting Spiderman #1 devalue a Spiderman #1 from the 60s? Even if there were reprints, older versions would retain the majority of their value based on the fact that they are old. Alpha and beta duals most certainly would stay the same, if not increase due to increased demand by new generations of legacy players looking to pimp their decks (well, maybe not with alpha duals).

The prevailing attitude that cards are an investment is detrimental to the game as a whole. I'm not immune to it. I talked myself out of picking up playsets of some of the new Eldrazi this weekend because I knew I would just sit on them to trade later in the event that they spike. Legacy should be afforadable to a wider playerbase, but that doesn't mean it needs to be cheap.

[JohnGalt]

Is there any other collectible out there with some sort of guarantee of worth like the reserved list for magic cards? Additionally, does Marvel reprinting Spiderman #1 devalue a Spiderman #1 from the 60s? Even if there were reprints, older versions would retain the majority of their value based on the fact that they are old. Alpha and beta duals most certainly would stay the same, if not increase due to increased demand by new generations of legacy players looking to pimp their decks (well, maybe not with alpha duals).

I'm not saying that Alpha versions would drop if reprints were made (considering they were easy to differentiate), but that part of the value of any card comes from the "insurance premium" of not being reprinted. In the case of Alpha cards that premium doesn't come from the promise of not being reprinted in some way, but from the assumption that new identical Alpha cards won't be printed. There are many Alpha cards that aren't in the Reserved List and are very expensive, and a big part of that price comes the assumption that no new Alpha sheets will be printed. Alpha Birds of Paradise or Wrath of God are expensive not because new Birds of Paradise or Wraths of God can't be reprinted, but because no Alpha ones will be created.

In the case of non pimp versions, like Revised dual lands, the premium comes from assuming that no kind of reprint will happen, not just identical Revised new cards.

[kirkusjones]

I should have been clearer with what I meant, I reread my post and it's a little garbled, especially with the reference to alpha and beta. What I was trying to say is that it seems like older versions would continue to demand a premium based on nostalgia. Most of the original Ravnica shocks are more expensive than their Return block counterparts. Same with the Onslaught and Khans' fetches. I'm willing to bet some of the guys over in the pimp thread would still run revised duals over reprints should that ever happen, although that would be slumming it quite a bit for the pimp thread. Look at the attitude towards the expeditions from some of the older players.

My opinion on the matter applies mostly to the duals, because they are the things on the reserved list in highest demand. Mythic or limited reprints of stuff like Chains of Mephistopheles and Nether Void probably wouldn't crash their legends counterpart prices for the same reason alpha and beta duals would see little effect from reprints as well. I mean, who would want some lame computer art demon when you can have the glory that is the pepperoni nippled abomination from Legends?

[JohnGalt]

I should have been clearer with what I meant, I reread my post and it's a little garbled, especially with the reference to alpha and beta. What I was trying to say is that it seems like older versions would continue to demand a premium based on nostalgia. Most of the original Ravnica shocks are more expensive than their Return block counterparts. Same with the Onslaught and Khans' fetches. I'm willing to bet some of the guys over in the pimp thread would still run revised duals over reprints should that ever happen, although that would be slumming it quite a bit for the pimp thread. Look at the attitude towards the expeditions from some of the older players.

My opinion on the matter applies mostly to the duals, because they are the things on the reserved list in highest demand. Mythic or limited reprints of stuff like Chains of Mephistopheles and Nether Void probably wouldn't crash their legends counterpart prices for the same reason alpha and beta duals would see little effect from reprints as well. I mean, who would want some lame computer art demon when you can have the glory that is the pepperoni nippled abomination from Legends?

I agree. I have a bit of money on old cards (more than a complete Alpha set, many P9 pieces, A/B duals, etc.) and I'm in favor of abolishing the Reserved List, as I think it would make my cards more valuable, and maybe I could play again without having to travel far, but unfortunately it probably won't happen.