Full spoiler is out now. Does anybody see anything they want to use in the main or side? I got nothin'.
Malicious Affliction is an interesting way to get some advantage on the board, but double black is hard to manage. It mandates playing Badlands, which has a nonzero opportunity cost. I won't deny that this type of removal effect is desirable, however in my metagame, the nonblack qualifier is a disqualifier as there are a lot of black creatures in need of destruction (including, technically, Painter's Servants).
justjammin's list without Probes intrigued me, and now I've cut the three I had left in my list in an experiment. In their place, I'm now playing a second Spell Pierce, and the two remaining slots are flexible. Right now, they are Murderous Cuts, since without Anglers I have lots of Delve fuel, and as I mentioned that effect is desirable in my local meta and, I think, the metagame writ large. Other cards I considered:
Forked Bolt
Chain Lightning
Sudden Shock
Fire // Ice
Disrupt
Divert
Flusterstorm
Repeal
Echoing Truth
Thoughtseize
Hymn to Tourach
Sword of Fire and Ice
Umezawa's Jitte
EDIT: Just thought of a couple more:
Snapcaster Mage
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Grim Lavamancer
Predict
Thunderous Wrath
I'm sure there are other options, too. Utility slots are hard to fill.
I'm not on board with Winter Orb yet. I think if you do jump on the bandwagon, be ready to play it incorrectly a lot, because timing it seems critical. You need to be casting it after it's unlikely they will be able to play more lands untapped to get around it, so you can't just jam it early and ride it like a Blood Moon or Tsabo's Web. But if you wait too long, the effect won't impact the board at all. The effect is definitely strong against Lands and maybe Stoneblade/Nic Fit, but just be careful.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
I played this deck today in the "Legacy Showdown" side event at GP Oakland, and it did very well for me. I usually play Junk or Maverick, but today I felt like Stifling some fetchlands.
Here's the list:
4x Delver of Secerts
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Wasteland
SB
1x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Darkblast
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Forked Bolt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Tropical Island
I haven't played Grixis Delver before, but I've played my fair share of BUG and RUG. I didn't want to get too tricksy with the maindeck, so I stuck to a bunch of 4x cards and the 2 Gurmags. I looked up a lot of lists, it seems that Stifle is kind of the flex slot. Some play a mix of Chain Lightning, an extra creature or 2, some number of maindeck Therapies. Like I said, I haven't played this before, so I decided to go simple and play Stifle. Stifle isn't played a whole lot at the shops that I play at, so I figure Stifle is at its best when it's under the radar.
No Tropical in the main is something I gleaned from Jacob Wilson's list at the SCG Player's Championship, and it made a bit of sense to me. I didn't think I'd want to spend mana and spend a Deathrite activation to gain life a whole lot, plus if you get double Wasted with only 2x Underground, or they have Port or some other nonsense, it can reeeeeally suck not having the black mana. I probably should have thrown a couple cards that use green mana in the side to capitalize on the fact that I had a Trop there, but I didn't. 2 Submerge, because this deck doesn't like Tarmogoyf, 2 Darkblast and 2 Forked Bolt for the mirror/Elves/Death and Taxes.
I didn't take great notes while playing, but I have the life pads.
Round 1 vs. Storm
I get stormed into oblivion game 1, my Cabal Therapies shred his hand and my guys kill him game 2, and game 3 was... interesting. I cast a Pyromancer in the midgame instead of holding up countermagic. I knew his 4-card hand, which looked pretty good, but I just wanted to put him in a "have it or die" situation on the following turn. He ends up Ad Naus-ing down to 1, plays enough mana rocks to cast the Tendrils in his hand for lethal... but he cast a cantrip, not realizing he could no longer fetch. Tendrils costs 4, and he could only make 3, and he was dead. Wowzers.
Round 2 vs. BUG Delver
Paired up against a friend of mine, bummer. He almost always plays BUG Delver, or RUG, but I thought he could be on Grixis. He starts beating me down with Delver, while I develop my board and dig. Eventually I Bolt his Delver and take over, and win the game. Game 2 he makes a grave mistake - deploying Tarmogoyf on a board that would allow a Lightning Bolt to kill it. I Bolt, he Forces, I Force back, dead Goyf. I win the game a couple turns later.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Delver
He wins game 1, I win game 2, and it's a long drawn out game 3. I make a huge mistake in game 3. We have a dueling Deathrite situation in response to his Wasteland on my 2nd Underground. I Stifle one of his Deathrite activations, and he Flusterstorm it, but I have mana to pay. I pay, but let my Underground die. But I had Daze in hand. I should have Dazed a copy of Fluster, to keep my second Underground to drain him to death on my turn. Dammit. We eventually go to turns, and we draw.
Round 4 vs. Grixis Delver
I get whacked by a Delver once, but kill it, and flip my own, and start making Pyromancer tokens, he dies. Game 2 was super close. He finds Darkblast early, which is terrible for me, but I find Gurmag. I've gotten pretty low during the game, casting lots of Probes for life before finding Gurmag. I am forced to 3 off a fetch that I need, opening myself to Bolt, but I have to do it and hope Gurmag gets there. On his last turn, he plays Delver as a chump blocker, but I rip Underground to cast the Darkblast that's been in my hand. He dies. His top card was Bolt. Whew.
Round 5 vs. RUG Delver
He kills me, I kill him, game 3. Cards in my board that seem good against RUG include Submerge, and... nothing. I know I've gotta take out some number of Dazes, although the options beyond the 2 Submerges are pretty thin. I decide to bring in 1 Therapy, because Goyf is so freakin' hard to deal with, it might be worth snagging a Goyf or 2 even if it means playing a shitty ass late game card against them. I do end up Therapying 2 Mongeese (Mongoosen?) on turn 2 after a Probe, much to the chagrin of my opponent (How could you leave Therapy in?!). I know, it's awful. I don't like it either, but I don't exactly have stellar cards to bring in, and I sure as hell don't want to cast 2 Dazes against RUG on the draw, so there. I kill him Gurmag Angler.
Round 6 vs. Grixis Delver
I get to go crazy with Pyromancer. It's awesome, and he dies. Game 2 Gurmag Angler shows up early and chunks him down in 4 attacks.
Round 7 vs. Miracles
I know he's on Miracles, so I decide to just 100% commit to early pressure. I'm able to sqeeze in a Deathrite early, and when he lands Counterbalance, I respond with Bolt, and then a second Bolt, taking him down to 6. Drains from Deathrite finish him off. Game 2 he mulligans to 5, and I aggressively Force anything to dig him further. I Force 2 Ponders, and then Force a Snapcaster over a few turns. I get a little bit of damage in before he assembles Counter/Top, but he's desperately digging for much of the game. I get Terminus'd and a couple Swords kill a couple guys, and it's a long grindy game. I try to Bolt him a couple times in response to Top draws, but he wisely leaves 1s on top both times. Eventually Gurmag shows up, but is met by Karakas Vendilion Clique. I rook pretty hard, and draw a Wasteland but don't use it pre-combat, which gives him an extra turn. Even so, Gurmag gets there. I feel like a fool for allowing that extra turn, but I'm a happy fool, because I happened to win.
Round 8 vs. Maverick
Another local guy who's unbelievably good at playing Maverick. Thankfully, he agrees to a draw, and we're both off to top 8.
T8 Round 1 vs. RUG Delver
I randomly put him on Miracles, but that doesn't impact anything. I mull a 7 with no mana, keep a 6 that has mana and looks decent. He plays Trop into Delver, starts attacking me, and I stabilize with my own Delver and Gurmag. I decide not to attack with Delver, he attacks for the trade, and I get him to 5 before he plays Mongoose and Goyf. I can't break through that, and I die. Game 2 starts off pretty great for me. I fetch Ponder, and see cards that would allow me a 2nd turn Pyromancer + Probe, with Daze, Force and another blue card (the dream!) He Wastes my Volc, but I have 2 more fetches, and my plan is merely delayed by a turn. I stick Pyro, make a few tokens, and he eventually gets Goyf with 2 Volcs and a Trop. I Brainstorm into Submerge and Wasteland, Submerge the Goyf, and strand it in his hand with Wasteland on the Trop. Turns out he had a Daze which he could have used to save the Trop, but he didn't do it, and I win. Game 3 I mull to 6, see a reasonable hand that I don't want to trade for a 5. I get Stifled and Wastelanded and then Stifled again, then I die.
- - -
They had this goofy "Prize Wall Tix" prize support system, but getting top 8 got me 1000 points, which I spent on a sweet Judge foil Lightning Bolt. Combine that with a silly playmat with art from who-knows-what card (probably something terrible in Standard), and a promo Stoneforge, and it was a pretty awesome first time playing Grixis. I look forward to tuning the deck and playing with the sideboard more. Chain Lightning seems pretty good, I want to try a Divert in the side, possibly a Jitte in the side as well, and maybe a Therapy in the main.
(Well, that was a quiet week on the thread. I was sick all week, so that's my excuse.)
T-101, that is a crazy gauntlet. Storm, Delver, Delver, Delver, Delver, Delver, Miracles, ID, Delver, LOL. And you beat all those Delver players on your first time piloting the deck? Color me impressed.
Round 5 against RUG Delver, you Therapy 2 Mongeese (my preferred pluralization) and your opponent gets a bit salty. As I've mentioned before Therapy is actually a great card in the Delver matchups. Any spell that can trade with a threat of theirs is a valuable spell. It's also a way to answer Abrupt Decay, which is a huge haymaker out of the BUG build (I lost to a BUG Delver player 0-2 because he drew 5 in 2 games and needed every single one).
I've found in playing these matchups that it often comes down to raw card advantage. You're both playing tempo decks so you can both play that game all day long. Theoretically, whoever sticks the first threat wins, but since every card in the deck is either a threat or a removal spell (especially after sideboarding), that translates into raw cards. So, what really wins are things like Bob triggering repeatedly, Painful Truths converged for 3, Sylvan Library, Young Pyromancer triggering multiple times, etc. This is why Force is theoretically bad and also why the BUG deck is supposedly advantaged, because they can play that card advantage game a little better, but Therapy is a great equalizer, allowing you to answer any nonland cards they might have (such as Library).
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
There were two "Grixis" Delver lists in the top 16 of the most recent SCG Classic, although one of them really is just full-blown 4-color Delver.
That one is located here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=97575
Adonnys is playing 2 Abrupt Decay main, along with a second Tropical Island in place of the third Volc and a Badlands instead of the 8th fetch. Abrupt Decay is a powerful tool in the metagame, so I'm not surprised to see it here. He's also playing 2 Spell Pierce. He's made room for these by cutting Stifles.
The other list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=97580
This one is Jesse Inman's. Jesse is also skipping Stifles main but he's playing Forked Bolts instead of Decays, although he is packing Decays in the sideboard. Interestingly, the other two slots he's opened up by cutting Stifles are filled with Cabal Therapies, splitting 4 in half between main and side. He's also playing the technology of Winter Orb in the sideboard, which seems to be picking up steam.
The main similarity these lists share is the lack of Stifle. It seems the successful lists are moving away from Stifle again. Does anyone have any input on this particular topic? Also, how do you all feel about Decay in the maindeck?
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
I feel like Stifle is a mini metagame. Much like Dredge, it's at its most powerful when unexpected. Some metas are more susceptible to it, and sometimes the card is absolutely rotten.
If there's a lot of Burn or Dredge, the card is less good. If you Stifle a lot of fetchlands for 2-3 weeks, people might start to play around it. That's when other options gain value (in this case, Chain Lightning, or Therapies, Spell Pierce).
At a GP or an SCG event, the field is so wide that I'd probably play Stifle. In a local meta where you can develop a feel for expected decks, and others can pin you on a deck, then Stifle might have to be left at home for a while.
if there's a lot of Burn you're probably going to lose either way.
Stifle is great against 2 of the tier 1 decks (Storm and Miracles) and excellent in the mirror and against Shardless, so I still recommend it.
I love playing this deck. I took it out to the LGS after a couple of months without playing Legacy at all, and managed to draw well and 3-1 (last round played out instead of ID into the top 8, which I didn't have time to play in). This was despite a pretty grubby sideboard that I'd cobbled together at the last minute.
I ran into 3 Delver decks (BUG, BUG, and UR) as well as Elves in the tournament, and I've been looking over the manabase and sideboard with a critical eye. These two things seem to be closely related to me, and to a large extent constitute the main differences between the decklists.
I noticed a lot of Storm and Miracles at the place where I played (where I will soon return to play). My first attempt at a board being junk, I've set about making a board for the next time. I'm planning specifically against Delver mirrors, Miracles (though I dodged it, it's there in force), and Storm.
The deck I'm playing has 4 Therapies, 2 of which reside in the board, and 2 Forked Bolts in the MD. I have 2 Volcanics and a Taiga in the MD, alongside 2 Anglers and a Sylvan Library. There are no 3 drops, I'm hoping to avoid the need for one MD. I own no Goyfs, but I may be crazy enough to acquire one/some.
The board I'm considering is operating on the following principles. 1) Against Delver mirrors, I need mana/threats/removal, so -4 Daze -4 FoW leaves me with 8 cards. 2) against Miracles, Daze/fire magic are underwhelming, so -10 cards. 3) Against Storm, -6 fire magic cards and possibly -1 Sylvan Library.
What about this board?
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tropical Island
1 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan Library
1 Darkblast
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
....it occurs to me that I might want not need the Trop in the board and/or other various things. The Surgical is a throw-in, and the other cards are pointed exclusively at the Delver/Miracles/Storm matchups. The big move is Liliana: being a troublesome noncreature permanent against Miracles and a big problem for Storm should she get going. Is there a better sideboard configuration for this expected field (and I'm quite willing to sacrifice all other MUs for this)? I'm willing to adjust the MD as needed, even if it means picking up a Goyf. Thank you for your consideration.
the deck is fine vs. burn. if youre having a rough matchup of it, you may not be playing the deck optimally.Originally Posted by h2o
It sounds like you're playing the full-on 4-color list with a Sylvan Library and Taiga main. I'd really need to see your maindeck 60 to provide you with accurate sideboarding advice.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
the burn player at my LGS played 4 searing blaze 4 searing blood post board making the matchup very difficult. ymmv.
Yeah, it might be too early for me to get too specific. You're right in that any actual analysis requires access to a particular build.
I suppose I'm just glad things that look like my favorite flavors of Delver from the Dig days are still more or less viable. While I miss that TNN + TS build, I'm definitely down with exploring the Grixis/BURG/BUG/RUG shells available.
EDIT: Yeah, I'd best be posting in the BURG tempo thread instead of this one, at least until I decide that Sylvan Library isn't worth it. Possibly at some point I'll decide I'd rather be running Anglers and Therapies, but right now I'm a little sad that I can't DTT into a Pyromancer and something to trigger him with.
Last edited by Lormador; 01-27-2016 at 06:48 AM.
Attended the split Legacy/Vintage event in Columbus this weekend, playing 4c Delver in Legacy and Fenton Oath in Vintage. Format was 3 rounds of Legacy, 3 rounds of Vintage, top 8 Legacy.
R1 won vs BUG Delver. R2 won vs Dredge. R3 lost to the mirror (he had Darkblast in his board and I didn't). R4 (Vintage) won vs Storm. R5 (Vintage) won vs Shops. R6 (Vintage) my opponent couldn't draw in and I lost vs Storm.
Top 8 won vs 4c Loam. Split top 4 and went to Thurman's for a giant burger.
Took this deck to the Channel Fireball 2.5K today. Slight modification from my list earlier on this page.
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Young Pyromancer
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Polluted Delta
SB
1x Flusterstorm
1x Divert
2x Submerge
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Darkblast
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Forked Bolt
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Null Rod
1x Tormod's Crypt
Round 1 beat Infect 2-0
Round 2 beat ANT 2-1
Round 3 beat U/R Delver (with Stormchaser) 2-1
Round 4 lost to Jeskai Delver 1-2
Round 5 beat U/B Tezzerator (with Thought-Knot Seer) 2-1
Round 6 beat TES 2-1
Round 7 ID into top 8 against Jund
Round 1 of top 8 lost to Goblins 0-2
Didn't get to Divert anything today, but I got good value out of Null Rod. Staticaster came in occasionally, but 3 mana cards don't feel right for this deck in my opinion. The card is good at what it does, but it is expensive.
I got to see an Eldrazi Stompy deck hanging out at the top tables, and it looked ludicrously fun. 16 Sol lands (Tomb, City, Temple, and Eye) allowed for some crazy plays. Chalice for 1, into Thought-Knot, into Reality Smasher or Endbringer... good lord. I might have to try that deck out.
There was also a good old fashioned Rock/Junk deck in the top 8, and that deck is a pet deck of mine. Love me some Bob/Stoneforge/Goyf/Knight action.
All around awesome day of Legacy.
Congrats on the finish! Can you share your list please? :)
Not that you faced it, but this sideboard looks a bit soft to miracles or shardless (i.e., no pyroblasts). From your last run you face a lot of delver and seem to have meta'd for it in some fashion - that or your testing against maverick quite often. I have also found that Izzet Staticaster can be high impact, but often expensive and prone to red elemental blasts.
It could indeed be soft to Miracles, and BUG can be quite bad if you don't keep them off mana. To be honest, I haven't played this deck against Miracles other than the one match from a couple weeks ago. In that match, I was able to squeeze in under Counterbalance both times. Lucky I guess.
Delver was on my radar, as was DnT, and Elves, thus all the Darkblast and Forked Bolt. Theoretically, Staticaster can help there as well. While slow against Elves, the card can also kill Empty the Warrens, and I don't own a second Null Rod at the moment.
If I were to metagame against Miracles, I guess I'd start including some number of Abrupt Decays. Seems like a lot of people are doing that.
Your sideboard is basically dead to Miracles. Your best bet is to bring in Therapies and Extractions to try to break up the combo/take out one of their sources of removal, which hasn't worked spectacularly for me in the past. You can also bring in Null Rod to stop SDT, and Flusterstorm is perhaps the strongest counterspell in the matchup (dodges Counterbalance).
For comparison, here is my sideboard:
3 Dark Confidant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sudden Demise
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Kolaghan's Command
(I believe I've posted my maindeck in this thread already, but for reference, I'm playing TNN over Angler and 2 Spell Pierce and 2 Murderous Cut instead of Probes.)
It's constantly a work in progress. My plan against Miracles is currently something like:
-4 Bolt
-4 Force/Daze (play/draw)
+3 Bob
+2 Needle
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Vortex
+1 K.Command
Trying to mix up the CMC of the deck post-board, along with bringing in some threats that present a big problem for Miracles by themselves (Bob and Vortex). Needle helps me to shut down Top. Every mode on K.Command is live.
I'm not sure if this is good yet, but those are the types of cards you need: difficult-to-answer threats, quality countermagic, ways to shut down CB+Top, and maybe some kind of effective sweeper to kill Angels or Monks. Your sideboard doesn't really do any of that, but, if Miracles isn't popular in your meta, I guess you don't have to worry about it too much.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
For those of you who've considered / used Painful Truths as a maindeck or sideboard option, what are your thoughts on Compulsive Research by comparison? Eli used 2 in his UWR Delver list from the EE4 Satellite in Baltimore. Frankly I think his deck is far better set up to use a raw card-advantage effect than Grixis is, but some of you insist on considering PT here so I wanted your opinion. I'd imagine that most often the different will functionally be 'pay 3 life to get an extra card', which seems to be in PT's favor for a delver deck.
I've played with the UR Prowess build a couple of times, and the raw card advantage is really big there. It's why UR was the list of choice during the Cruise Delver era, and then when Dig blew up, Grixis was the list of choice because it was the best Dig Delver deck, operating better with card selection and quality over raw cards.
The reason for this is because UR Delver operates under the Philosophy of Fire; that is to say, it tries to kill you with its first 10 cards, so each card you draw must convert to 2+ damage to your opponent (including lands). When your deck is configured to convert cards into damage that efficiently, it matters a lot less what you are drawing. Thanks to the effectiveness of casting spells with Prowess creatures on the board, this is magnified, because if you're hellbent, your creatures are crappy.
Grixis Delver, on the other hand, operates much more often as a true aggro-control deck, and does not operate under the Philosophy of Fire, instead focusing primarily on the concepts of tempo. It's slower, but more consistent, and you have a lot of play against the random swaths of jank people tend to play in Legacy due to your increased counts of countermagic and discard, as well as things like Deathrite that can totally disrupt certain strategies while being an efficient threat.
All that is to say Painful Truths is, in my opinion, stronger than Compulsive Research in a vacuum. But the effect they both provide is more effective in UR Delver than it is here. Painful Truths would be at its most effective in UR Prowess Delver if they played our mana base, but that would leave them weak to Wasteland and unable to support Blood Moon in the sideboard.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
Is it bad that I want to try to use Frenetic Efreet against Miracles? I can't tell if I'm retarded or not. I feel like I am.
Some context, I'm trying to find some effective threats to use against them that won't stretch my mana base. I'm playing 2 Decays main deck now, so Vortex is a little tough to cast, even with access to a Badlands.
Edit: I think I'll just use Bobs.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
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