I didn't realize you guys were using Stoneforge in the board. Aside from the obvious midrange creature decks, do you find yourself bringing them in, elsewhere?
Storm, for example, is a perfectly fine place to bring the package in. It is a significant clock, and every time you hit your opponent, you increase the required storm count by 2, which may or may not be relevant. As well, you trade favourably with an empty the warrens, as 4 life / turn is very significant.Originally Posted by Cipher
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
It also is able to come in in the mirror as a cheap non-blue threat that will still threaten even after it's been removed/countered.
There's still debate within our group of SFM vs. Mentor as a kind of midrange-breaker, but SFM is far better of a defensive card, and can be utilized to run through our more difficult matchups.
You side it in more often than not.
Yeah, I thought as much. Guess I'd lean towards Mentors if you're basically bringing them in against everything.
This is extremely speculative, but I also bring in Mentors in basically every matchup. I think there's a similar creature package always coming in for most people. Perhaps people should actually board in more cards to smooth draws in the place of some of those generic sideboard threats. Trying the 2 Predict in my sideboard made me think about this.
Mentor is often better than a lot of the cards you cut. However it's not a card you would prefer to have in some matchups like burn, dnt, merfolk, delver-X. It's certainly far worse than sfm/batterskull vs combo as tapping 3 mana mainphase is often out of the question. As I wrote in my initial post about the deck the stoneforge package is not only a win-con but terminus 5-7 and it plays much better with the rest of our cards (counterspell, predict, terminus etc). I think it's important to realize that the approach of this version in some matchups is very different and evaluate cards with this in mind.
You don't want to tap out t2 vs combo anyhow; T2 and T3 isn't really that different wrt Storm, Sneak and Show and the same.
Mentor acts as a terminus as well; Basically stopping ground attacks. Besides, I'd much, much, much rather have Mentor versus decks playing Lightning bolt as well as stifle. Getting you stoneforge bolted, your living weapon trigger stifled is much, much worse than getting a token or three.
Mackan is referring only to 3 mana vs. 2 mana. You don't tap out T2 or T3 usually ever. SFM costing 2 mana is the main upside, as opposed to mentor costing 3 mana. Not agreeing or disagreeing, as I'm still reserving judgment on which I prefer, but simply clarifying for him :)
This is not entirely true. Mentor is conditionally a Terminus based on the conditions of when you cast it, including board states, hand size, etc. There are times when Mentor gets going and clogs the board very well... and there times when you are looking at 3-mana 2/2 that has to block a 3/3 Nimble Mongoose so you don't die next turn. To say that Mentor is a Terminus as well is misleading. I guess you could say the same about SFM but the point is that SFM is much, much more defensive of a card than Mentor in that Batterskull is automatically and constantly a 4/4 lifelinking, vigilant attacker and blocker.
Thats not correct. SFM costs 4 Unless you pay for the squire only....
There's also times when you face a lethal Mongoose, with a SFM, and they stifle your living weapon trigger. That's about as bad, besides you actually dying in that case, compared to you losing your mentor.
It costs 2 mana on the turn you play it, allowing you to keep up other things, snare, top spins, etc. As opposed to mentors 3 mana + a guy. On the turn you untap with SFM, you have 3-4+ mana available to threaten other things + drop batterskull. Not sure where you're getting the 4 mana thing from
Stoneforge costs four mana, over two payments. That's not really an argument, as that's just fact.
There's no argument that you NEED to trigger Mentor as soon as you cast it, in particular against combo, as he fits perfectly into your gameplan. He shortens the game, in a way Stoneforge+Batterskull can never do.
Stoneforge is also utterly garbage against mentor, which matters a lot in the mirror, in particular. It's also worse against the de-facto best Delver deck (Grixis) which packs both Bolts + Therapy.
Another thing is it's waaaaay slower to kill, compared to Mentor. Mentor is often two or three turns to kill, stoneforge is, at least, 4 turns - That's pretty much.
Stoneforge is, however, much better against Dread of Night as well as Sulfur Elemental.
This is getting quite heated.
"Stoneforge costs four mana, over two payments. That's not really an argument, as that's just fact."
The second payment is timeable. If SFM is removed, the 2nd payment is also void. Mentor always costs at minimum 3 mana, during a main phase. This can be a huge edge for SFM, and is why SFM is even playable vs. combo. You really never want mentor vs. combo, because tapping out so low is going to get you killed. =P
"Stoneforge is also utterly garbage against mentor, which matters a lot in the mirror, in particular. It's also worse against the de-facto best Delver deck (Grixis) which packs both Bolts + Therapy."
I dunno about "utterly garbage". It depends on how the game is going, how you boarded, etc. You're kind of hinging on having two spells to cast per turn before your combat phase. I also think that with proper play, you can mitigate the effects of mentor when you have an active batterskull on the board. If I'm careful, I can be gaining 8 life / turn, and killing a monk a turn as well.
Bolts and therapy aren't really a big concern here. You're never casting stoneforge until you can adequately protect it. Vs. Grixis, this generally means getting a CB onto the field, and laughing at your opponent. There's the chance, yes, that they're running abrupt decay for such an occasion, but I don't see how them decaying a mentor vs. them decaying an SFM does much different, besides maybe letting you have a dude left on the board.
"Another thing is it's waaaaay slower to kill, compared to Mentor. Mentor is often two or three turns to kill, stoneforge is, at least, 4 turns - That's pretty much."
It is, but also has the advantage of gaining you a ton of life in the process. Stoneforge is a defensive control card, and plays into our gameplan of being careful and planning and shaping the game in the long game. In most matchups, don't care about the speed of the clock so long as we have one. Stoneforge gives a lot of inevitability, while stripping it away from several decks.
"Stoneforge is, however, much better against Dread of Night as well as Sulfur Elemental."
We agree on something!
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
I agree if I came across as aggressive; That was not my intention, but I can see how it might sound like it. I'll try to avoid it going forwards :)
Sure, SFM's second payment doesn't have to come the next turn. If it doesn't, however, you're so far behind, and not getting B.skull down asap is hugely detrimental to your gameplan - Not getting it down asap also pretty much nullifies one of your arguments, wrt lifegain :)
Mentor doesn't really care about 8 life a turn. batterskull does, however, care ALOT about being blocked forever and ever.
Vs. Grixis - You could arguably kill with a Mon's Goblin Raider if you've established Counterbalance+Top. Using this as an argument for stoneforge isn't really an argument, as what you're stating is basically that Counterbalance is a hard lock versus them; Yeah it is. Sometimes you don't resolve it quick, and you need a play to stabilize. In these cases you actually need to deploy Stoneforge, where bolt and therapy becomes a huge pain. batterskull is also worse against Angler than Mentor, I'd argue. The plus of resolving a stoneforge and getting batterskull down against a Young pyromancer is, however, really large. Arguably better than a mentor.
I don't want 2(3) mentors against storm g2. These games usually come down to a critical turn, where you need everything you can. If you survive at this point, you're pretty golden. I actively disagree with stoneforge being viable in this matchup: They play 7(8) discard spells, making your turn 2/3/4 play useless. If it resolves, and you spend ressources protecting it, you are leaving yourself vulnerable to their kill.
The only problem i have with stoneforge is it takes 3 sideboard slots and sorcery speed. Althought i really like its resilience to decay and its recursivity.
Actually i'm battling with those 3 options for these slots in sideboard :
-2 stoneforge+Batterskull
-1 entreat + 2 free slots <-- My current option.
-2 Mentor + 1 free slot
I'm also trying fire/ice in the MD predict slot for more versatility. It's an extra removal that can make 2 for 1 and it can still cycle if needed. I'm fairly happy of it for the moment.
As a new miracle play, i never won a game against shardless.
They have answeres for everything we do and play the value game way better.
How do I play this MU? Ive tried different list, none was leading to any succes.
Help
Play keranos, God of Storms. That cards basically unbeatable for them. Shave counterbalances, play RiP if you have it, Keep in your terminus, Play Blood moon if you have it. Shave force of Wills and board ReB to counter Visions.As a new miracle play, i never won a game against shardless.
They have answeres for everything we do and play the value game way better.
How do I play this MU? Ive tried different list, none was leading to any succes.
Help
Keranos helps, but it doesn't deal with Tarpit or Goyf. Blood Moon can be a blow out, if stars align and the Shardless is stubborn enough to Not fetch a basic.
CB... depends. RiP is a double edge sword, it can save you from creatures, but it totally ruins your snapcaster's way to keep up with Shardless BUG's CA.
I agree with boarding out FoW.
Fwiw, I disagree with boarding out all CB, if boarding in the RiP and Blood Moon.
Moon, as well as REB, both deal with Tar Pit. RiP deals with Goyf. I do agree with Snapcaster being very, very good in the matchup, bordering to making RiP not as appealing.
So I want to try 2 Mentors in the board (I tried them main and did not like them at all.)
Here's my board:
CPriest
Canonist
RIP
2x Fstorm
2x Clique
Venser
BMoon
3x REB effects (1R/2P)
Staticaster
2x W/T
My local meta is: Delver (BUG/Grixis), MUD, Elves, Miracles, Stoneblade, Slivers, Dragonstorm, DnT, Sneak Show. What do I get rid of? I was thinking Moon and RIP.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote