Or colorLESS you skeptical amiright?!?!Originally Posted by nevilshute
OK I'll shut up now...
Hahaha, where's the 'like' button when you need it
Hey all, relatively new D&T player here, been lurking for a while and I figured I’d put up a tournament report of the Super IQ that I got 4th at this past weekend.
Here is the list I ran:
Creature
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Vryn Wingmare
Spells
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Land
8 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Warping Wail
1 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
There were 39 players, so 6 rounds of swiss:
R1 vs. Elves (Draw) (1-1-1)
I knew my opponent was on elves, having seen him top 8 an event last weekend. Was not excited about this matchup to start the tournament.
G1: I have a fine hand with a plow, Revoker, SFM and hope to be able to slow him down a little bit. He plays turn 1 GSZ for Dryad arbor, and on turn 2 he casts glimpse… uh-oh, but he only gets 2 draws after I plow the Birchlore Ranger with the Nettle Sentinel on the stack… phew. I fetch a Jitte then revoke the 2 Deathrites he plays. But the Wirewoods blank my Jitte and he draws a Cradle and GSZs for the Craterhoof.
G2: Really grindy game, He hardcasts a Ruric Thar on turn 4 or so, I take a few hits but stabilize with a Batterskull on Thalia, after Reclamation Sage killed my Jitte and Sword. I get there after a Cataclysm effectively wipes his board.
G3: We have about 2 minutes left in the round, and my hand is 2 land Canonist, Containment Priest, a Plow and some other cards that don’t matter. He Reclamation Sages the Canonist, and goes for Natural Order on T5 of turns, I flash in the Containment Priest and take the draw.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Pithing Needle (I think)
Out: Thalias, Vryn Wingmare, Mangara, and trimmed a Mom and a Vial
R2 vs. Omni-Tell L (0-2)
G1: He is on the play with mono islands and cantrips the first few turns. I have only a Mom, and Port him a few times but he draws lands and casts Show and Tell. he puts in Omniscience and I Flickerwisp it out. On my turn I attack for 4 and play a Flickerwisp on my Flickerwisp to keep his Omnisicience off the table for a turn. I attack him to 6, play a Mangara for an extra body, he Forces. I punt by not casting a vial for my 8th permanent, he attacks and I don’t have enough to crack back.
G2: I have a few hate bears but he gets to five lands or so and Shows an Emrakul. I have to attack into it and hope to draw something to get in for lethal after sacrificing my board. But I don’t get there.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Council’s Judgment,
Out: 1 Mom, 4 Plow, Mirran Crusader, Jitte
R3 vs. Esper Mentor W (2-1)
G1: Pretty back and forth, I eventually have a Plow for his Mentor and manage to whittle down the tokens and take the game with a few Sword hits.
G2: Gitaxian Probe into Cabal Therapy gets 2 Thalias, Deathrite and a Mentor comes down and he Probes and therapy something else. I die to Mentor and Monks shortly thereafter.
G3: We each plow a threat, and he casts Surgical Extraction on my Plows. The game goes really long, I attack him to 6 with a board of Mom, Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader, and Wilt-Leaf Liege. He has a Jace and tries to bounce my Crusader. I give it pro-blue, but he plows it and then Abrupt Decays my Flickerwisp. He is hellbent and attacks for 2 with his only blocker. I untap, ask: “How many cards?” “None” So I attack for lethal with my WLL and 2 power Mom.
SB: 1 Pithing Needle 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Rest In Peace, Council’s Judgment, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Out: Don’t remember exactly, I think I trimmed the Thalias, a Vial, and SFM,
R4 vs. Mono-red Sneak Attack W (2-0)
G1: I’m on the draw and he has turn 2 Seething Song, Lotus Petal, Spirit Guide, Sneak Attack, put in Emrakul and Inferno Titan. I could have plowed the Titan and gone to 2, and hope to rebuild before he hits another creature, but for some reason I had a brain fart and just scooped.
G2: He has turn one Chalice for one and Trinisphere, but Port, Waste and Hatebears get there. I preemptively Revoke the Sneak Attack. He drops a Pyromancy (2RR Enchantment: 3, Discard a card at random: Pyromancy deals damage to target creature or player equal to the cmc of the discarded card), which is a card I had never seen before, but I Flickerwisp to reset my Revoker and swing over the next couple turns.
G3: he has a chalice and a turn 3 or 4 Inferno Titan. I have a couple creatures out and attacks/Ancient Tombs have him down to 6 or so. I fetch up a Sword of Fire and Ice to get past the titan if he leaves it back. He attacks, kills a guy and plays a Spirit Guide to block, but the Pro-red gets my last creature through for the win.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Council’s Judgment, Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, Mirran Crusader
R5 vs. MUD W (2-0)
G1: He drops a turn 1 Chalice and shuts off my 2 Plows. At one point I think non-creature spells would have cost 4 more to cast, between Thalia, 2 Lodestones and a Vryn Wingmare. He fetches up a Blightsteel with one of his Forgemasters. I have a decent board, but the Colossus is going to grind me down unless I can kill the chalice. Just in time, I draw a Flickerwisp to clear the chalice and I plow the Colossus for 3 mana. Fliers finish the game.
G2: His turn 1 is two Grim Monoliths into Lodestone, I take a hit, plow it on turn 2 and then Revoke his Metalworker on turn 3. He plays a Coercive Portal and a Forgemaster that I Revoke. I am able to fly over with a Serra Avenger with a Sword of Fire and Ice before he drops anything else.
SB: In 2 Containment Priest, Pithing Needle, Council’s Judgment
Out: 4 Moms. (I don’t remember if I brought in Cataclysm for a Thalias, but it is possible I did)
R6 vs. 4-Color Loam W (2-1)
G1: We are both 3-1-1, so this match is a win and in for top 8. I’m on the play with turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Mom, Vial (Lucky to get these out as he had a T2 Chalice). 2 Moms protect my SOFI equipped Revoker and let me get hits through his Knights, while Port keeps his Maze of Ith down.
G2: I mull to 5 and keep Port, Mom, Plow, Avenger, Flickerwisp. I don’t draw a 2nd land until he wastes me. 2 Plains come of the top but I can’t hold off 3 5/5 Knights.
G3: I play turn 1 Vial, he plays 2 Mox Diamonds and Abrupt Decays it, and does not play a land for his turn. I untap and Revoke the Mox Diamonds, he laughs and only draws one land the rest of the game.
SB: In 1 Council’s Judgment, 1 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Containment Priest
Out: I think a Vial, a SFM, 2 Thalias, and the Vryn Wingmare
I end up in 8th place at 4-1-1 after a clean cut at 13 points for top 8.
Top 8 is as follows:
1st: Mono-Red Sneak Attack
2nd: BUG Delver
3rd: 12-Post
4th: Reanimator
5th: Maverick
6th: OmniShow
7th: Infect
8th: Me on D&T
Quarterfinals vs. Mono-Red Sneak Attack (different player than in the Swiss) W (2-1)
G1: He has turn 1 Chalice, shutting off the plow I have in hand, into turn 2 Inferno Titan. I lose quickly.
G2: He mulls and I have a vial into Revoker into Thalia with a port. But sol lands let him Pyroclasm. I think I get there with a SFM, SOFI, and a Flickerwisp before he is able to get a fatty down.
G3: he has a slow opener with 2 mountains and I have a Thalia on T2. He did not play his Petals on his first turns for some reason and has to pay 1 for two them on t3 and misses a land drop. I Revoke the Petals and Ports keep him from doing anything. He shows a hand with 2 Emrakuls, 2 Griselbrands and a Worldspine Wurm.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Council’s Judgment, Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, Mirran Crusader
Semis vs. Reanimator L (1-2)
G1: I am glad I get a good matchup here, but being on the draw is still scary. I have Vial, Thalia, Revoker, and a Plow but no Karakas. I keep. He Dazes Thalia then Reanimates a Griselbrand. I don’t draw Karakas and he Forces my Plow, the demon kills me.
G2: I’m on the play with a Vial into Canonist into Thalia. He gets to 4 mana and casts Show and Tell. I have a Flickerwisp, Sword of Fire and Ice and a Karakas I was sandbagging in my hand. I tank for a bit and decide to put in the Sword, he puts in Empyrial Archangel. This will be tough. He hits me twice but then I draw a Mirran Crusader. Crusader plus a sword would be 8 damage, enough to kill the Archangel. I vial it in, untap and go to equip. He casts echoing truth on the crusader, so I vial a Flickerwisp on my crusader to not lose an extra turn to summoning sickness. Next turn I get enough through the angel to kill it and he scoops shortly.
G3: I mull to a hand with a Plow, Thalia, Revoker, Port and Plains, no sideboard hate, but not so bad that I want to mull further. He has turn 1 careful study binning a Griselbrand. I topdeck Karakas and play it (might have be a mistake) and pass with a plow/Karakas up. He plays a Pithing Needle on Karakas and reanimates Griselbrand. I Revoke the Griselbrand, but it is too late. He draws 14 and few attacks and an Elesh Norn later, I am dead.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Enlightened Tutor, 2 Rest In Peace, Warping Wail, Council’s Judgment
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, and some number of SFM, Vials, and Serra Avenger I believe.
I ended up in 4th, good for $100, which is my best finish with the deck, and I am pretty happy with list I ran.
I was testing the Sea Gate Wreckage, drew a total of 1 extra card all day, wished it was a white source a few times, and had the game end before I was empty-handed a few times as well. Going forward, I think I will try out an Eldrazi Displacer as well, Flickerwisp and Revoker were the MVPs all day and being able to reset them seems great.
^Were you playing at Level up? for this IQ? I thought I was the only D&T player there.
It is. Thalia is good, Phyrexian Revoker on LED is good, Spirit of the Labyrinth is good, Vryn Wingmare is nice if you play it, the denial plan is good since you can also attack their basiclands of which they play 2 or 3 at maximum while all other lands cna be wasted. Furthermore you have decent SB material (Rest in Peace is strong as it hoses PiF and Cabal Ritual, which in return also makes Thalia more effective) and obviously Ethersworn Canonist is very good and can also be tutored for.
How the matchup usually goes can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xticirLepB4
There is a reason why the experiences Stormplayer don't ever leave the house without either Massacre or Dread of Night in the board.
Ancestral Visions is okay, but if you really board Warping Wail to counter Ponder, it's just not worth to listen to you any further. Not to mention that Spirit of the Labyrinth already stops these cards. Exiling Mother of Runes is good, but the Liliana argument is flawed, because any creature you drop via Aether Vial will kill Liliana when the opponent has no blocker. But if they have blockers, Warping Wail won't kill Liliana anyway, it can hose the sacrifice effect at best.Additionally, helping with Elves, and stopping every kind of Miracle, while being an always relevant card is good. It stops Ancestral Visions, the ever present ponder, is an instant-speed dude to equip that dodges Mom, kills Liliana if she dropped and ate someone (or puts a dude out for her to eat.) It stops Reanimate and Exhume; stops Green Sun's Zenith and Painful Truths. Stops Forked Bolt.
Do I really need to go on?
Against Reanimate it is actually quite shitty, Reanimator is extremely fast and leaving Warping Wail up to counter the 2nd Turn Reanimation spell and be cold to Daze is definitely not what you want to do.
So what? I mean, from this statement, playing this card effectively means abandoning the main lines of play and the very basic concept of the deck, so why are we still talking about it? The card is shit in DnT. The only thing where I'd want this is Elves because it literally does EVERYTHING in this matchup. But I would never want this against anything else.I can understand arguing that it costs too much for D&T to function properly due to your lands being used to kill others' mana, but the idea that the card doesn't have a useful target in *literally every deck* is not correct.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Massacre and Dread of Night are exactly why this card is good against Storm. You play your hate bears, they play towards their board wipe. This is the solid backup for the longer games.
No one (or at least not me) is writing this card off at this point. We're just trying to temper expectations and not just suck each other's dicks, bending every usage (like using how it counters ponder as an argument) the card has to be fantastic and not really looking at the opportunity cost of running the card (ie what comes out?).
No, It was at Phantasy Hobbies
Sure, I don't think countering a 1 mana blue spell with a 2 mana spell is how D+T wins, but claiming that this is bad against storm because we play Thalia is also ridiculous. I don't think you bring this in against every deck with at least one target. But I think it's good-to-great against a sufficient number of decks - including our very worst matchup.
As a SB card (I'm not arguing that anyone should run it main) - it provides functionality similar to Ratchet Bomb. It isn't an autowin very often but answers a lot of random hard to deal with things across a variety of decks. Mother of Runes, Show and Tell, Natural Order.
OK, I logged on to say this because I think the misunderstanding of this concept has gone on long enough. Thanks for mouthing the words. Now that we are somewhat familiar with the scope of Warping Wail's application, none of us should be especially happy to see this card counter Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, Chain Lightning, or largely inconsequential stuff like that. We should solely be interested in if the actual gameplay scenarios that matter tend to be of the type that allow this card to live up to its potential to give D+T real answers to stuff that we have hitherto just accepted as blowouts that we must weather. Or if it is just too narrow or too hard to cast or low impact or whatever.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Hey there. I'm not sure exactly how to enterpret this post. Are you saying that it is a mistake to be focusing on the cost of bringing out certain cards? In any case I'd just point to your quoting me: my sentence started on the paranthesis which isn't in your quote. Just to say that I wasn't stating that a card has to be "fantastic" be considered.
I did misunderstand your words then. I am actually concerned that Wail will not quite have the impact I am hoping it will...
(I wish people would be willing to maindeck it so that we can get more information. One or two in the side takes eons to analyze. I was thinking of maindecking two of them during this initial testing period. I figure that it does not want to be in a deck with Wingmares, so it would take those spots.)
...Doesn't it have to be stellar for any of us to want it over a disruptive creature? How important is it to have access to something like this? Does it make sense to lower the bar on power level for this spell because it is an actual hard counter? You get all "dunno" from me at this point. But every time I hear that it countered something small it leads me to believe that either the pilot felt he needed to get rid of it (for all kinds of unfortunate reasons) or he did not know quite what to do with it. Either way, that is not where we want to be with this card. Is it the better play to let Ponder resolve so that you can wait for Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor, or Terminus? I dunno!
If I am leaving Port mana open for this spell, I don't think I want to let Ponder resolve. But here is the important part. Is it best to just sit behind Warping Wail while I attack for a bit each turn? D+T wants to use its mana to heap on more bureaucracy. This would be something entirely new. It is not an organic fit.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
It's a worse fit g1 for a lot of reasons:
- As you mentioned, Wingmare (but also Thalia) make it harder to cast, it comes in vs matchups where they either come out (Elves) or might die to sb boardwipe effects (Storm)
- G2/G3 are longer and you're likely to have open mana for it late. G1 you are likely to either win quickly or lose quickly, and your easiest wins are gonna be in games where you could never cast Warping Wail.
Like I said this is like Ratchet Bomb - which can be fantastic but not maindeckable for similar reasons. This is a toolbox card and the fact that it 'cycles' to one-for-one a Ponder etc. is upside that Ratchet Bomb doesn't have, even if it doesn't feel powerful.
Warping Wail is good against Dread of Night? You gonna spawn a 2-mana 1/1 useless dork and win with that?
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Dread of Night means our shields are usually down as the only good Hatebear that survives this is Ethersworn. Having one of these in hand means:
a. if they see it, they still have to get a discard spell before they can win, which gives us time to get damage in.
b. if they don't see it, they might attempt to go off and lose the game despite having the single best sideboard card against D+T in play
This is always going to be plan b vs storm - it's just nice to actually have a plan b.
Incidentally, if this becomes played regularly, even D+T players who *don't* play it will have the option to bluff it once in a while.
I think warping wail's primary purpose will be similar to that of Red Elemental blast. Something to bring in against shardless (to counterr visions) to protect crusader and to bring in against storm and show and tell.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
Terminus anyone ?
That...and Entreat, Ancestral Visions, Toxic Deluge, Maelstrom Pulse, Ponder, Preordain, Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Cataclysm, Infernal Tutor, Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Merchant Scroll, Gamble, Exhume, Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Dread Return, etc...
Also it exiles, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Swiftspear, Thalia, Goblin Lackey, Baleful Strix, Dryad Arbor, Heritage Druid, etc...
Also it never hurts to throw a sacrificable 1/1 in front of a Batterskull or Jitte to prevent lifelink or counters.
It's worth testing to say the least.
"Gobble Gobble"
It's easy to compile a list of cards that are worth countering, but you have to break it down to certain matchups. What I am saying is the density of threatening cards matter in order to make Warping Wail a good card. Then again you have to analyze what you actually are supposed to do against certain matchup. In most cases, you'll want to execute your denial-plan, i.e. getting Thalia online asap and using your Wastelands/Ports aggressively. In this line of play, Warping Wail has - in my opinion - no place here as neither contributes to the denial plan, nor does it speed up your clock (significantly, the 1/1 dork doesn't count, and even if, 2-3 Mana for a 1/1 "flash" dork is terrible).
Countering Ponder or Preordain is moronic. These cards already get really shitty when Thalia's online and can also be easily shut off with Spirit of the Labyrinth which also has a decent 3/1 body.
Terminus also gets mentioned frequently, but if you know your opponent plays it, adjust your lines of play accordingly.
And Cataclysm? Seriously? I can only see that happening in the mirrormatch, and boarding Cataclysm against the mirrormatch is something I'd consider as really stupid as the card essentially says "let's go to topdeckmode". The card has such a large variance to it, and once your opponent happens to play a Flagstones of Trokair (which appears and disappears randomly in and from lists respectively), you'll have this fml-moment and wishing Cataclysm was an actual good card that saves your ass.
The list of creatures is also quite stupid to be direct, cards like Clique, Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix create their value when they come into play, so it's usually irrelevant what happens with it afterwards, especially if creature battles against such creatues are easily won by having Mother active, any equipment or dude with evasion. Not to mention that you can still turn Thalia and Mirran Crusader into these dudes without hesitation. And the other relevant part of the list can also be shut down with Revoker.
As I said, it's the density of cards that matter. I won't board Warping Wail when my main plan is to screw my opponent. I won't board in Warping Wail if the only thing it hits are a few irrelevant dorks. I'll definitely want this against Elves as it has maximum value here (and the denial gameplan is actually shit here), but there is no other matchup I can think of that has a similar threat density.
It also does not contribute to the really bad matchups like Jund, Lands and that 4C Aggroloam (because Punishing Fire, yo).
The card is not as good as people are overhyping it here. But then again people don't seem to listen and are unable to think in matchups and gameplans, or just not seeing the basic concept of the deck. So far it's just "there is a list of sorceries this spell can counter and Death and Taxes has quite a few colorless manasources to cast it, ZOMG it's nuts and the real deal!!!111oneoneone"
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
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