How would my deck look with the changes you said going towards the stifle route?Originally Posted by Will_L
This is what I'm playing, a more blue based BUG delver deck
4 delver
4 drs
4 goyf
1 tnn
1 gurmag angler
4 daze
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 spell pierce
4 abrupt decay
1 dismember
8 fetch
3 trop
3 sea
4 wasteland
Pox
Imperial Painter
Team America
Right. I meant if you need more enchantment hate in the sideboard, I'd look towards something like Golgari Charm that is simply more flexible than State which, for all intents and purposes, a worse Abrupt Decay. :)
I've played both the Hymn version and Stifle version, and will be probably be sleeving up the Stifle version if I go to SCG Philly since I'm more comfortable with it than the proactive discard version. The core of the Stifle version is usually:
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
12 Creatures
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Decay
24 Instants/Sorceries
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
8 Fetches
18 Lands
My list is +2 Dark Confidant, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Disfigure and +1 Dismember. I'm recommend reading Jim Davis's article about it on SCG. He's been playing the deck for over a year. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ye-Monkey.html
Thanks for the great info! The article was a good read but I feel like it didn't help me much. Could you guys critique my Sideboard for an unknown meta and maybe list some really solid hands to keep on the play and on the draw? I always feel that these primers are missing that kind of information.
Well, the "ideal sideboard" is really going to depend on what your maindeck looks like. If you run Stifle, Spell Pierce is a lot better than Thoughtsieze, so it should be in the main.
I would want to keep 4 Decay main. Pierce main too. If I were to make a sideboard, it would be:1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
No Deluge, since I'd run a t least 2 Confidant and 2 True-Name. Library is almost a must-have in my mind. Two Disfigure is probably not needed, depending on your maindeck, so you can consider them a flex slot. Jitte is not really ideal here but with True-Name it can certainly break some fair matchups.
Your best hands will be a combination of threats and disruption. I'm not really smart enough to come up with great lines, but some games Stifle will be MVP, where in others, it might be Spell Pierce or Wasteland. In same games (mostly on the play) Daze will be great, in others, likely nearly useless (Force fodder). In any case, everything in your deck is better with a threat on board, regardless of being on the play or draw. All disruption hands are going to be generally better than all threat hands, but that definitely depends on the match-up, how many cantrips you have access too, etc.
On the play, value Delver higher, with Stifle and Daze. On the draw, value Deathrite, Spell Pierce and Abrupt Decay higher, along with Wasteland over Stifle. Of course, these are generalities and just my opinion.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I would recommend watching Bon Huang pilot the deck on MTGO. Should give you a better feel for what hands are keepable on the play/draw, and what lines of play are good versus different opponents.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Hv2htS6kQ8tKWu
If you decide to go for the Hymn version, here's some advice on building a list for that.
If i where to bring TA (Hymn version) to a large event (200+ players), what would be a suggested 75?
Also, how problematic is Eldrazi Stompy? Think they can overload quite easy and most creatures they drop are out of reach for our removal. Best plan here seems to be mana denial coupled with a fast clock.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Probably something like one of Bob's recent lists (I changed a little bit):
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Flex Creature
4 x Hymn to Tourach
1 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
1 x Sylvan Library
1 x Flex Spell
2 x Bayou
4 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Wasteland
Sideboard
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Disfigure
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Dread of Night
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Dismember
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Null Rod
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Flex Sideboard Slot (Meta game choice)
The only thing I am really not too sure of is having three Spell Pierce in the side, but I think you need to weigh your expected meta and chose what you want to beat, then adjust accordingly. I don't know that I am comfortable having zero Surgical Extractions, but again, that is up to you.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Thank you for your reply.
Looks pretty close to what i have been running;
3 hymn
2 thoughtseize
2 Liliana
1 Sylvan library
1 Tombstalker/Tasigur
But i am looking at the following cards aswell;
1 Jace VP
2/3 Dark Confidant
2 Painful Truths
I really like having 2 Liliana in the MD and mostly i am playing very aggressive (which is the appeal over the Stifle version for me).
As sideboard i am running;
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 V. Clique
1 grafdigger
1 null rod
1 P. Needle
1 Life from the loam
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Darkblast
1 Krosan Grip
So far i have run a ton of games with my local group, but i am preparing for a large tournament which follows in 3 months from now and am considering bringer either this, Junk or UB OmniShow.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Well, one thing I don't particularly like about having Tasigur or Tombstalker is that if they bring in something like RiP to deal with Goyf/Deathrite, it deals with them too. We are already very Graveyard dependent. Doubling down on it, with Jace probably doesn't really help either. I tested Jace a bit and while he is ok, to maybe good, he is not aggressive at all, so I found that he probably wasn't ideal. I like that Confidant doesn't need the graveyard to be good.
I have yet to be able to get a chance to test Truths, 2 is probably pretty good though. 2 Liliana is also a configuration I have run before and liked it, also gives you another sideboard slot to play with.
Your sideboard looks good to me, in a general sense. I like the idea of Garruk, but I have never run him myself.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Tasigur; i had it as an aggresive beater that could help in the lategame. In reality i rarely got to the point where i was actually able to use it in the lategame, so i decided to swap it to Stalker. But your point about being to dependent on the grave is very real. I really like to have a one-off beefy creature. That said Dark Confidant makes most sense in replacing Stalker (and library). TNN is a solid option but i dont like the idea of running UU in a 19 land deck with BB heavy cards.
Thruths is seems like a fine replacement for 2 Confidant, they have effect right away and you control the lifeloss. Only thing is that it doesnt add pressure by itself.
As for sideboard i really like cards to be either recurring, hit multiples or are a 'permanent' effect.
Garruk Relentless is really nice to have in the control match-up. Especially against Miracles.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
There was a really good guide posted back on page 111 if you wanna take a look at that. As for the Eldrazi statement, I don't have a huge amount of experience with it in Legacy but it puts out 5/5s on turn 2.
Edit: Would 2x Bob work well in that Hymn based decks instead of the single creature and spell?
Last edited by Ryu; 02-11-2016 at 03:06 PM.
I found it, thanks. Also i found the next comment, how true is that?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
The Miracles players I know seem to fear Confidant most of all the cards we play.
If Miracles is a very big thing, it might be worth it to play three copies in your 75.
Against Storm I'm not the biggest fan, but Confidant does draw into more disruption.
Then again, Storm is one of our best matchups. We should be fine against Storm anyway.
Well, according to the "5-best-decks-in-Legacy" article....Miracles is THE deck to beat. So there we have it, Dark Confidant it is.
Edit; Or is that too short thru the corner? ;-)
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I play the Stifle version over the discard version because I'm in a Miracles heavy meta. Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library and Painful Truths are all fantastic against them.
How relevant are gameplay videos from 2013 and onwards? I am watching a bunch of SCG coverage of the deck and wanted to know how relevant the information is when compared to todays meta. If anyone has more up to date coverage then please pass it on!
I'm trying to come up with simple heuristics for how best to stack Dark Confidant and Delver of Secrets triggers with unknown cards on top of library so that I don't have to waste time and mental energy during an actual tournament. This may be a bit pedantic, but we only have to go through the process once. Please feel free to correct me if you see any mistakes or add to this list as this is nowhere near complete.
One Confidant, one Delver, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board
- Resolve Delver trigger first if concealing information is more important.
- Resolve Confidant trigger first if increasing the probability of flipping Delver is more important. The top two cards of your library can be AA, AB, or BA, with P(AB) = P(BA), but stacking your triggers in this way gives you a chance of flipping Delver even if the top of your deck is [Brainstorm, non-instant/sorcery].
One Confidant, one Delver, potential instants or activated abilities in consideration
- Resolve Delver trigger first if your primary consideration is dying to an unlucky Dark Confidant trigger. This will allow you to shuffle away a high casting cost card with a fetchland, Stifle the Dark Confidant trigger, or otherwise manipulate the top of your deck before resolving the Dark Confidant trigger, as well as informing you whether it's necessary to activate Deathrite Shaman for lifegain during the awkward upkeep step.
- Otherwise, the logic from the previous section applies, except that if you choose to resolve the Confidant trigger first, you can still shuffle away any card you reveal to the Delver trigger before drawing
Two Delvers, one or more Confidants, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board - It may be possible to flip zero, one, or two Delvers, but in some board states, you can only win by flipping two and in some cases you are fine if you flip at least one.
- If the game state is such that your primary consideration is to flip both Delvers, it is best to stack both Delver triggers in "higher variance" manner so that they "together" (adjacently on the stack). You can further optimize this probability by resolving all Confidant triggers before the Delver triggers resolve so that any Brainstorms gained from Dark Confidant increase your probability accordingly.
- If the game state is such that your primary consideration is to flip at least one Delver, it is best to stack the Delver triggers in "lower variance" manner, separately with intervening Dark Confidant triggers in between. With two Dark Confidants and two Delvers, the optimal sequence is resolving the first Confidant trigger, followed by a Delver, then the second Confidant, and then the second Delver, as this allows for two separate cards to potentially trigger at least one Delver as well as a gained Brainstorm from the first Bob trigger to aid with deck manipulation.
- Note that the above statements can be generalized to situations involving more than two Delvers.
@lordofthepit Just ... wow. Nice write up. Very informative for me as a new player. My only suggestion would be to add a small writeup about how to properly/efficiently shuffle away cards after the triggers for delver/bob.
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