Endbringer would definitely be amazing vs D+T if you can get it into play, but do you guys have trouble vs 4 Port and Wasteland?
All is Dust crushes Death and Taxes, and if you can get the mana to cast Endbringer you can get the mana to give your opponent AIDs.
Lord of the Chalice
Originally Posted by Julian23
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
All these cards seem great against D+T, but it just feels like the way you lose to them is Port/Wasteland.
I would definitely put Chalice on 1 first against Storm, just because of the quantity of cards it hits. Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe, Dark Rit, 6-8 discard spells, maybe some number of Top/Preordain.
LED is a more powerful card than the 1 drops, and Petal is very good too, but it's 8 cards vs. 25ish. Beyond countering nearly half the deck, Chalice at 1 robs them of information about your hand (since they can't Probe/discard spell you). Allows for your Warping Wails to blowout an Infernal/Past in Flames/Petition.
Post board, I would also consider playing a second Chalice on 1 before a Chalice on 0, because of Abrupt Decay.
Thanks Chemical Burns. I play at a store in Ohio. I prefer not to go into greater detail online as I value my privacy but I would be happy to PM you more information if you would like.4-0 where? Would love to hear matchups and so on about this list - it looks like it has a lot of very interesting technology to incorporate!
No Wasteland. No Cavern. Four Crystal Vein. Four Eye of Ugin. Two Sea Gate Wreckage?!
Breaking all the apparently set-in-stone Legacy hallmarks of Stompy, I'm not sure whether you're a mad man or a genius Captain Hammer. Considering your results though, I'd lean towards the latter. I love your list's dedication to the balls-to-the-wall Mimic and Endless Ones on turn one draws, though in my testing I've found at times, if not followed up by further pressure, these draws can get quickly disassembled by a timely Terminus or even a Stoneforge into Batterskull. The insane nuts sometimes just aren't as insane as they are in Modern due to the power level of the format. I also find it interesting that not only is your list going "faster" with all the 20 Sol Lands, but it's also going "bigger" because... With 20 Sol Lands, why not, I guess. As you said, Eye and Sea Gate give you a lot of inevitability. Ulamogs Crusher is also sweet - but are not the cheaper alternatives like Endbringer a little better? To be honest, I'm not a fan of the Ulamog package in the aggro lists, since I feel you can lean on Eye to simply find chains of Smashers against Miracles, but I'm definitely willing to give it a go. Again, your deck has a lot more mana than typical aggro lists so I'm interested to see how the duality of the deck functions. I'm afraid of natural drawing my Ulamog and getting quite a clunky hand though.
And on Sea Gate Wreckage I'm very excited to test it, especially since it seems to be perfect in a list like this that's main strength seems to be its ability to spew out its hand very quickly - which again makes me wary of having Ulamog and co. in there clunking up draws where I need to get Hellbent.
But yeah, Captain Hammer your list is sweet, I will definitely be testing it.
Nonetheless, lots of interesting lists going around everyone, lots of interesting techonology to test.
Returning to a discussion of the tech, I agree that Matter Reshaper seems to be the weakest Eldrazi in the lists and I haven't missed cutting it at all. My mana base is very tilted towards even casting cost threats hence it's emphasis on playing 2cc, 4cc, 6cc along with a singleton 8cc and 10cc threats. I would love to play Artisan of Kozilek or Void Winnower in lieu of Ulamog's Crusher but a 7cc/8cc Eldrazi in this slot is a much safer choice to go with than a 9cc card.
The 3cc slot only becomes relevant in the occasions that one of my lands gets Wastelanded and I end up stuck with a sol land paired with a Sea Gate/Urborg/Crystal Vein. For those situations, I quite like the idea of playing a 2cc/3cc artifact that reduces mana costs by atleast 2.
I'm looking into cutting an Endless One and the 2 Ratchet Bombs (never bad but rarely game breaking) in order to accomidate either...
Worn Powerstone
Urza's Incubator
in order to increase the capacity to support the higher curve threat base that I vastly prefer to Matter Reshaper.
I have also considered Kozilek's Channeler (equivalent in cc to a 3cc artifact under an Eye of Ugin) and Grim Monolith (though I prefer a more consistent mana source to best support a high curve threatbase to another one time use mana source).
At least for the fast aggro Eldrazi plan, the Eyes are critical.After some playtesting, "Eldrazi with Hats on" is just too much of a pile to be any good.
Back to the way better G/W build.
@MD.Ghost: How would you build the GW manabase without post? As I said, I'm unimpressed the Cloudpost manabase and a third Eye would be nice.
If you look at the Modern decks, they rely on the fact that Eye makes all the cheaper Eldrazi into Zoo-quality beaters. Skyspawner is great when it's a 2/1 flier and a 1/1 with upside for U; Matter Reshaper stops sucking donkey butt when it's a 3/2 with upside for 1. (And yes, I think Matter Reshaper is a far weaker card than a lot of people. It gives you card advantage, but only if your opponent can't afford to ignore a 3/2. Big freak'n deal).
The advantage to the Cloudpost plan is that it frees you up from having to rely solely on Eldrazi.
In either case, I'm not sure what you gain by giving yourself another 4 - 6 mana to pay in order to stick pants on something.
But Smallpox only costs BB...
Updated my decklist to reflect the changes of trying out a Cloudpost-less manabase:
GW Eldrazi Ramp 2.0
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Brushland
1 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Talisman of Unity
1 Mox Diamond
2 Endless One
2 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Conduit of Ruin
2 World Breaker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
3 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 All Is Dust
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Karakas
4 Rest in Peace
Some notes:
- Umezawa's Jitte was added in the MD as a lifegain card and to dominate creature match-ups. I cut 2 Mox Diamond for that.
- Mishra's Factory could be any land, but I think it might go along nicely with Jitte if you can't stick one of your Eldrazi.
- Moved 1 Karakas to the main, which allows place for a third Jitte in the board for the matches where we really need it.
- Jitte should help us to handle creatures better, so I replaced my Spatial Contortion with a third Ratchet Bomb. It's just way too useful to only run two copies in my opinion.
- Talisman/Mox split could go either way. I tried to keep at least one Mox since it's nice ramp sometimes and with only 1 copy, you'll never run into situations where you draw multiples.
- I might consider Kor Haven as a 1-of. Not sure if it can deliver, but might be cool.
You're kind of missing the point of Matter Reshaper, and that's the risk of looking at something that works in modern and trying to apply it to legacy - and it's good to see viewpoints like MaximumC's. As much as being critical advances decks, one thing missing is identifying what is causing the misjudgement (and offering new productive direction/s to pursue).
I think a ton of new Legacy decks suffer from "modern mentality," which in this case has people saying "Matter Reshaper is good because it is a 2-for-1." This is Legacy folks, we have most of the cards ever printed - why are we caring about indiscriminate value when we should be more concerned with breaking the underlying mechanics? We're how many pages into this thread and no one has noticed something like Brainstorm in response to Matter Reshaper's trigger, drawing 3 new cards and putting a manifest target like Phyrexian Dreadnought on top of our library, directly under Cloudform seems strong...cause like that's Ancestral Recall with upside. Obviously not going to work in a chalice deck, but let's at least make an attempt to identify key interactions before Tarmogoyf'ing out and saying "yep, it's just plain good."
I agree with this sentiment, but not the analysis.
As you pointed out, I take a very dim view of Matter Reshaper. It's a 3/2 for 3. If anyone bothers to blow it up, it replaces itself as a card, and depending on what you flip, it might also replace the mana you spent to cast it. That's great, but in the meantime all you did was play a 3/2. if you're playing Eldrazi lands, maybe it only cost you 1 mana to play, effectively. So, we're talking about a Wild Nacatl or Kird Ape that replaces itself. That's not a bad card, but it's also not near as broken as the other Eldrazi, and so I think it only has a role in balls-to-the-wall aggro lists.
Your example of using Brainstorm to maximize Matter Reshaper is a fine incidental use of the two cards, but a bad basis for a deck. If you didn't have reshaper, you can do exactly the same thing -- put Dreadnought on top -- and just cast the Cloudform. Costs you 1UUU versus 3C, and you didn't have to resolve a creature. More importantly, what kind of deck is going to be running Brainstorm, Cloudform, Dreadnought, and Matter Reshaper, anyway? Not a good one!
The broader point of being able to use Brainstorm to eke value out of a Reshaper that is destined for the bin, however, is a good one. I don't think it's got much combo potential, but if your Reshaper is dying anyway, a Brainstorm can ensure that you get the maximum value -- a card and functionally three mana -- out of the exchange. When you add to that the fact that Reshaper only matters if you're in a really dense aggro deck, I start to ask what kind of aggro decks run Brainstorm, anyway. That'd be Merfolk and Delver, basically. Merfolk has no interest in a 3/2 for 3, but Delver? It might actually be interesting to see if it would be possible to merge Eldrazi aggro and some flavor of Delver.
I think Eyes are critical in general to the strategy in general, not just Hyper Aggro. It's another painless Sol Land for most intends and purposes and gives us the edge in long, grindy games once you start to fetch the big boys. Given that Wasteland is a thing in Legacy, two copies don't feel satisfying to me.
@Fox: Matter Reshaper is worse in Legacy than Modern. Bolt is the most played card in Modern, while Legacy has quite a bit of removal that dodges its trigger clause (StP, Terminus, Jace, etc).
On a slightly different note:
- Played against a Miracle player on Cockatrice with a weird build (Daze, Wasteland - Mentor build maybe?).
- I have Displacer and TKS on the field and pressure his life totals
- He casts Humility. I follow up with World Breaker to exile his Humility (cast trigger ftw), swing, put him to 4.
- He SDT's for Brainstorm to set up Terminus. Activates SDT during my turn, casts Terminus, I Wail, swing, win. Salt ensues.
God, I love this deck.
main deck and side list you play? thanksI think Eyes are critical in general to the strategy in general, not just Hyper Aggro. It's another painless Sol Land for most intends and purposes and gives us the edge in long, grindy games once you start to fetch the big boys. Given that Wasteland is a thing in Legacy, two copies don't feel satisfying to me.
@Fox: Matter Reshaper is worse in Legacy than Modern. Bolt is the most played card in Modern, while Legacy has quite a bit of removal that dodges its trigger clause (StP, Terminus, Jace, etc).
On a slightly different note:
- Played against a Miracle player on Cockatrice with a weird build (Daze, Wasteland - Mentor build maybe?).
- I have Displacer and TKS on the field and pressure his life totals
- He casts Humility. I follow up with World Breaker to exile his Humility (cast trigger ftw), swing, put him to 4.
- He SDT's for Brainstorm to set up Terminus. Activates SDT during my turn, casts Terminus, I Wail, swing, win. Salt ensues.
God, I love this deck.
@barook neat sequence of plays; definitely a good deck for trolling miracles players (true of most sol land/chalice decks given their weird mana curves).
As far as Legacy removal goes, most of it is pretty suspect. What I mean by that is if a hypothetical opponent isn't playing creatures and it turns said removal into dead maindeck cards, it seems pretty sub-optimal. It's definitely a personal playstyle preference, but personally if removal isn't bi-modal, I'm just not maindecking it. That's why creatures like Matter Reshaper are exciting; you're not confined charm-type cards or turning removal into burning opponent's life total. Now you've unlocked a third form of bi-modal removal precisely b/c no matter what deck your opponent is on you can always kill your own guy - and if they try to exile, you've constructed a deck that can respond by sending it to the graveyard instead.
It's actually kind of humorous when Legacy is broadcast and no one talks about the 4x StP in every white deck, but the moment a delver list has a single copy of Darkblast or Disfigure maindecked it's somehow the biggest talking point ever. Now imagine how much more sense either of those pieces of black removal becomes when you run a guy like Matter Reshaper. Your examples of exiling removal in Legacy is valid, but tempered by the fact that Matter Reshaper probably comes with a smarter removal package. Terminus is good against any critter on the board, but miracles in general can't beat "bad" [high] mana curves - missing out on what will be a blind flip in this deck as designed seems inconsequential. A resolved 3/2 is still a game-ending threat as far as miracles is concerned, and one they really can't afford to address through creature combat.
First impression of Mishra's Factory has been pretty good so far. Bonus points for trolling Miracles even harder now. This is getting "12-Post vs Miracles" Tier lopsided.
It's on the same page and three posts about the post you quoted. You should be able to solve this.
Edit: Second impression of Mishra's Factory is still pretty good. Seems really worth it.
I've been thinking about cutting Ulamog from the maindeck (and move 1 copy to the sideboard - maybe). I've played quite a few games the last few days and I cast it once after tutoring it up against Miracles. In all other cases, it was a 100% dead draw. The only reason why I haven't cut it yet is because I don't know what else to put it. Maybe another Conduit or World Breaker? Endbringer? Something completely else, like Batterskull? And what to cut the board to put Ulamog in?
Also going to test -1 City -1 Factory for +2 Sea Gate Wreckage. Factory isn't underperforming, I just want to see how Sea Gate performs and it seemed like the most logical cut.
Last edited by Barook; 02-12-2016 at 11:50 PM.
Hey everyone
since I started to build this eldrazi deck, I had 2 concerns:
First: an opponents goyf/gangler can still be a big problem
Second: with Dismember/surgical extraction in my sideboard and ancient tomb in main, life can be very short
And now, that Iīm not playing the post ramp anymore, the problems are even bigger, bacause of the lack of glimmerpost
Here is the solution: Basilisk collar
a 1 mana drop, that allows even your small cretures to kill a goyf. additionally you gain life. Imagine a turn 2 TNS equipped with collar in turn 3. And it canīt be handled by Needle or revoker like Jitte.
But the most amazing thing is the combo with endbringer. Because of the deathtouch and the untap ability you kill 2 creatures til your next untap step. :-)
And it is a big advantage in mirror matches.
Would appreciate your feedback.
Collar clashes with Chalice @1. I would rather run Jittes and maybe even a Batterskull instead.
Yes, youre right. I play 1 collar and 1 jitte. Thats absolute accetable.
Played two matches vs. Reanimator. Karakas definitely pulled its weight here and stays. Displacer won a pre-board game by beating down and having double activation up against Griselbrand.
Rest in Peace was too slow and thus never relevant, though. Not too sure what to think about that one, since it should be good enough in other match-ups like Lands or Dredge. Also ruining Goyfs.
Edit: I don't think there are many situations where Sea Gate would be useful in my build since my hand is rarely empty. So I'm going back to +1 Factory (so good) and a single Kor Haven for testing purposes. Stopping random fatties or annoying flyers while tapping for mana sounds good to me, plus it doesn't leave blockers behind like Maze of Ith.
Looks like eldrazis are leading the Swiss after 4 rounds in the TOP euro scg series right now.
Edit: Not playing any nonsense like Collars, Kor Havens or even Jittes.
Edit2: Jitte in SB, though
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Where can I found that? Are they streaming it?
Is there tournament coverage online? If so can you link? Thanks!
Edit: I think I found it: http://www.twitch.tv/mtgquality
Edit again: They said there were only 2 Eldrazi decks at the event, and they are doing poorly...
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