[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Bobmans]

One Confidant, one Delver, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board

• Resolve Confidant trigger first if increasing the probability of flipping Delver is more important. The top two cards of your library can be AA, AB, or BA, with P(AB) = P(BA), but stacking your triggers in this way gives you a chance of flipping Delver even if the top of your deck is [Brainstorm, non-instant/sorcery].

Ok, i may be misunderstanding but what you are saying is;

Stack Top
Confidant trigger
Delver trigger
Bottom

Library Top
Brainstorm
Tarmogoyf
...
Bottom

That this situation does flip the Delver? Or that you can still influence if the Delver flips? Obviously in this case your blind with the library and the triggers are already announced and placed on the stack.

[Ryu]

Ok, i may be misunderstanding but what you are saying is;

Stack Top
Confidant trigger
Delver trigger
Bottom

Library Top
Brainstorm
Tarmogoyf
...
Bottom

That this situation does flip the Delver? Or that you can still influence if the Delver flips? Obviously in this case your blind with the library and the triggers are already announced and placed on the stack.

I could be wrong but in this event wouldn't you draw brainstorm off Bob then cast it with delver trigger still on the stack? My knowledge is limited so I assume that this isn't how things work.

[Bobmans]

I could be wrong but in this event wouldn't you draw brainstorm off Bob then cast it with delver trigger still on the stack? My knowledge is limited so I assume that this isn't how things work.

Yes you could, but let's say the brainstorm is a random instant/sorcery.
Because i overlooked that detail of a brainstorm being in your hand before the delver trigger resolves.
Edit: now to think of it, the whole point was about Brainstorm being the top card. I was not seeing that and replaced Brainstorm with "random" instant/sorcery. So if a Ponder be on top with a Goyf as 2nd the Delver aint flippin.

[Ryu]

Yes you could, but let's say the brainstorm is a random instant/sorcery.
Because i overlooked that detail of a brainstorm being in your hand before the delver trigger resolves.

Okay then in this situation delver wouldn't flip because Bob trigger resolves and you draw the instant/sorcery then delver triggers and reveals the goyf. This is coming from a logical standpoint.

[lordofthepit]

For simplicity, let's assume your library only consists of Brainstorms and Tarmogoyfs.

If you stack the triggers so that Delver resolves first, then you can only flip if the top card is a Brainstorm (call this event A)

If you stack the triggers so that Confidant resolves first, you will flip Delver if the second card is a Brainstorm (call this event B.) Events A and B happen with equal probability if you haven't manipulated the deck, but in addition, by resolving the Dark Confidant trigger first, if the first card is a Brainstorm, you will have an additional chance to manipulate the deck before your Delver trigger resolves.

[Ryu]

now to think of it, the whole point was about Brainstorm being the top card. I was not seeing that and replaced Brainstorm with "random" instant/sorcery. So if a Ponder be on top with a Goyf as 2nd the Delver aint flippin.

Can't you use ponder to dig past the goyf and still potentially flip delver?

[Bobmans]

Can't you use ponder to dig past the goyf and still potentially flip delver?

You can also slap your opponent in the face and flip Delver for no appearent reason.

For simplicity, let's assume your library only consists of Brainstorms and Tarmogoyfs.

If you stack the triggers so that Delver resolves first, then you can only flip if the top card is a Brainstorm (call this event A)

If you stack the triggers so that Confidant resolves first, you will flip Delver if the second card is a Brainstorm (call this event B.) Events A and B happen with equal probability if you haven't manipulated the deck, but in addition, by resolving the Dark Confidant trigger first, if the first card is a Brainstorm, you will have an additional chance to manipulate the deck before your Delver trigger resolves.

Yes, this. I had mistaken my error in reading for a fancy trick i might have never thought about.
Thnx for clearing that out.

[Xerlic]

Can't you use ponder to dig past the goyf and still potentially flip delver?

Nope. Ponder is a Sorcery.

Has anyone here played against the new Legacy Eldrazi deck? I played against my friend's Modern Eldrazi deck, and uh... it wasn't pretty. I imagine the Legacy version would be much worse. Anecdotal evidence, of course.

[Manipulato]

Nope. Ponder is a Sorcery.

Has anyone here played against the new Legacy Eldrazi deck? I played against my friend's Modern Eldrazi deck, and uh... it wasn't pretty. I imagine the Legacy version would be much worse. Anecdotal evidence, of course.

Yeah this new Eldrazi Aggro deck will shake up Legacy hard! It's heavily discussed here in the new & developemental thread...
When this deck arrived at Legacy the next 2 month or so the people have to change the way they're building decks. It just eats Miracles, ANT & Delver variants for breakfast...

But from all Delver variants out there I think BUG Delver aka Team America has the best tools to fight them, AD, Goyf & Liliana are more powerful against them like Lightning Bolt, YP & Stifles etc...

[wwoning]

One Confidant, one Delver, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board

• Resolve Delver trigger first if concealing information is more important.
• Resolve Confidant trigger first if increasing the probability of flipping Delver is more important. The top two cards of your library can be AA, AB, or BA, with P(AB) = P(BA), but stacking your triggers in this way gives you a chance of flipping Delver even if the top of your deck is [Brainstorm, non-instant/sorcery].

While I agree with your assessment, this still leaves the question which action is best in a certain match-up or situation. Since the chance of hitting brainstorm with our confidant trigger is pretty small, I will mostly choose to conceal the information and have the Delver trigger resolve first.

[Ryu]

You can also slap your opponent in the face and flip Delver for no appearent reason.

Oops, forgot that Ponder is a sorcery.

[Bobmans]

Oops, forgot that Ponder is a sorcery.

Would be pretty good, Ponder at instant speed. Thought you were making some kind of joke. Happens; better now then during a sanctioned event.

@Eldrazi, hymn+wasteland seems nasty against them. Liliana + plus decay for some disruption. Trinisphere is usually also not much of a problem, at least when i was on MUD playing against TA it wasn't. And goyf may be 5/6 from their artifact/creatures to stop smasher and tks. Also flip delver can keep pressure on them. The MU looks horrible but might be ok.

[btm10]

@Eldrazi, hymn+wasteland seems nasty against them. Liliana + plus decay for some disruption. Trinisphere is usually also not much of a problem, at least when i was on MUD playing against TA it wasn't. And goyf may be 5/6 from their artifact/creatures to stop smasher and tks. Also flip delver can keep pressure on them. The MU looks horrible but might be ok.

I've only done limited testing so far, but Eldrazi stompy seems to be weak to any sort of BGx deck strategy - good news if you're playing Hymn (especially alongside Liliana), bad news if you're playing Stifle.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, but now Shardless is better overall, since they do the hymn thing the best.

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[btm10]

Sure, but now Shardless is better overall, since they do the hymn thing the best.

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I think it's less clear that Shardless is the better BUG deck right now; it depends on the relative levels of combo and Miracles (and to a lesser extent, nonblue midrange) you expect. That being said, I play basically all of the BGx decks and BUG Delver is definitely the best Hymn deck. The others want to drag the game out longer, and Hymning to put them in topdeck mode while you're likely holding removal and midrange goodstuff is worse from both a tempo and resource allocation standpoint than is just Thoughtseizing the one card you can't deal with at the moment to force them to play into your hand of removal/planeswalkers/creatures/card draw without their best threa/answer/cantrip. In contrast, Hymning them with a threat out forces them to play into your soft permission (this is why I MD 1-2 Pierces in my Hymn list) no matter what gets hit. If they had removal, they were likley holding it to play around Daze, making hitting lands functionally similar to hitting removal. But since they're strongly incentivized to fire off their removal by the simple fact that you're playing discard, they probably don't have it, which increases the value of hitting cantrips, lands, etc. further.

In the case of Eldrazi Stompy, I think both Delver and Shardless are favored, but which has the larger edge has more to do with matchup specific questions (how many scions can they make? do they have MD graveyard hate? what's their curve like?) that it's basically impossible to say that one is decisively better in the matchup than the other.

[Asthereal]

Sure, but now Shardless is better overall, since they do the hymn thing the best.

Why would anyone want to compare Shardless and Team America?
Do we play the same colours? Sure.
Do we play a few cards they also do? Sure.
But that's where all comparison ends.
Just look at the matchups. How are they positioned? How are we?

It's like comparing whether Miracles is better positioned than us.
Different deck, different playing style, different strategy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think you read a bit too far into my statement. That actually was where the comparison ended. All I said was it was better positioned as a BGx list that played Hymn.

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[Asthereal]

I think you read a bit too far into my statement. That actually was where the comparison ended. All I said was it was better positioned as a BGx list that played Hymn.

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Maybe, on an average that was stretched out as far as the horizon. But if you encounter Storm in the first two rounds, how do you feel?

The thing is, there is no reason to discuss here how this deck is positioned compared to another deck. Whichever deck that may be is irrelevant. You can discuss such things in the format discussion forum. Discussing it in the deck thread is pointless. Everybody has to decide for themselves which deck to play. If they have questions, there's the format discussion forum. More specifically the "what should I play in my meta"-thread. Here, we try to optimize the Team America list. Maybe, if the meta shifts like a madman, we can discuss the general viability of this deck here, but that's highly unlikely.

I'd like to know how you guys feel about adapting our list to the apparent explosion of Eldrazi Stompy. I personally don't think Eldrazi Stompy will be that big a thing in the long run, but who knows. It can never hurt to prepare for its rise. For instance, I think running main deck Disfigure would make less sense. Going up to 2x Murderous Cut in the main deck could help kill the big dudes. Dismember could also be an option - the better option perhaps. I'm not sure as of yet.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Maybe, on an average that was stretched out as far as the horizon. But if you encounter Storm in the first two rounds, how do you feel?

The thing is, there is no reason to discuss here how this deck is positioned compared to another deck. Whichever deck that may be is irrelevant. You can discuss such things in the format discussion forum. Discussing it in the deck thread is pointless. Everybody has to decide for themselves which deck to play. If they have questions, there's the format discussion forum. More specifically the "what should I play in my meta"-thread. Here, we try to optimize the Team America list. Maybe, if the meta shifts like a madman, we can discuss the general viability of this deck here, but that's highly unlikely.

I'd like to know how you guys feel about adapting our list to the apparent explosion of Eldrazi Stompy. I personally don't think Eldrazi Stompy will be that big a thing in the long run, but who knows. It can never hurt to prepare for its rise. For instance, I think running main deck Disfigure would make less sense. Going up to 2x Murderous Cut in the main deck could help kill the big dudes. Dismember could also be an option - the better option perhaps. I'm not sure as of yet.

OR I could have been promoting Stifle. Honestly, who are you to tell me how to contribute to the thread? It was implied with the recent topic of Stifle that it might be better to stick with Stifle in Delver and allow the more Midrange BUG lists such as Shardless to go the tapout and/or cascade route for sorcery-speed disruption such as Hymn, and allow this deck to be more fluid and hold up Stifle or Pierce here.

Stifle has application against Eldrazi, although it's obvious that more than one line of disruption will be necessary to have an actual balanced matchup vs. them.

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[Xerlic]

I'd like to know how you guys feel about adapting our list to the apparent explosion of Eldrazi Stompy. I personally don't think Eldrazi Stompy will be that big a thing in the long run, but who knows. It can never hurt to prepare for its rise. For instance, I think running main deck Disfigure would make less sense. Going up to 2x Murderous Cut in the main deck could help kill the big dudes. Dismember could also be an option - the better option perhaps. I'm not sure as of yet.

I've been toying with the idea of going -2 Dark Confidant, +1 land (total of 19), +1 Liliana of the Veil and possibly putting a second Lili in the sideboard. I'm currently on the Stifle version of TA.