@Drathro: So you're saying, in essence, it's worth five life and the inability to produce red on a Chrome Mox for one more toughness and the ability to not swing? Meh.
@Quicksilver: Sellout Combo (Or Focus Combo) = Deck that just tries to destroy you as fast as humanly possible and to hell with any but the minimum disruption/control elements. It's not meant to be derogatory. It just means the deck has one mission and one mission only - combo out. Nausea, Iggy Pop, Belcher, and Burn would fall under this category, whereas GK Salvagers, Aluren, and Solidarity would be considered slower, control-combo (Or Pace Combo) decks.
@Clark: Covetous Dragon is awful. If you cut Razormane, this deck runs 12 Artifacts. That's nowhere near adequate to support Covetous Dragon. Covetous Dragon also doesn't singlehandedly win you an aggro match. Razormane Masticore does. Razormane Masticore slaughters Goblins unless they're holding an STP and you don't have a Chalice. Razormane can swing through every creature in the format, including Mystic Enforcer (Aim the 3 damage at it and then swing.) Fuelling the Razormane isn't a huge problem. If he's alive and online, he's usually the only thing you need on the board, so pitch away. If you have one of your Squees, rock on. The Razormane being chumpblocked isn't a big deal either. Razormane picks off small creatures before swinging, so if he gets chumped, chances are he picked off 2+ creatures or one really big one in the process.
As for Squee, Squee is much more solid than he appears. He's a 1/1 equipment-carrier that comes back time and time again against control decks. If unnecessary, he imprints on a Chrome Mox, and he pitches to Razormane. For what it's worth, though, I only run 2 in my build in exchange for the fourth Flametongue Kavu (And that's the only card difference at all between mine and Phantom's builds, though there have been times I missed the Squee and hated Flametongue.)
Originally Posted by majikal
Playable cards at 2R
Blade Sliver
Brutal Deceiver
Craven Giant
Dromosaur
Flailing Ogre (you should win the mana race)
Hulking Ogre
Kavu Agressor?
Pain Kami
Rock Jockey
Rhonin Houndmaster
Thoughtbound Primoc (I love this guy, dispite the odd Meddling Mage/Bob)
Viashino Outrider
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Have you considered running Drooling Ogre? You have more artifacts that any of the tier 1 decks, so opposing decks should never be able to maintain control of him. Also, Goblins would probably drop vial on the first turn, making him essentially drawbackless.
Also, Arc Slogger is pretty much better than Razormane Masticore. You can smoke an entire Goblin army, kill Werebears, and go to the dome to finish an opponent off. It's castable off of Seething Song, and you can replace the Squees. It also punishes every creature in Threshold, just like Razormane does. I was running a deck with both cards, (the Big Red deck) and found that Arc Slogger is way, way better than Masticore.
EDIT: Chimeric Idol also seems like it might be a good replacement for those Squees. It would be another artifact to maintain Drooling Ogre, and it's a 3 mana 3/3.
KIDS WITH GUNS!
@ Drooling Ogre: I hadn't considered it, but I don't think it would work at all. this deck already gets hit enough by common artifacts like Needle and Jitte.
@ Chimeric Idol: We're not really looking to replace Squee, especially not with non red cards.
@ Arc slogger: This has certainly been considered. In limited testing, I personally found him to be not nearly as good as Razormane, but I think Taco has done more extensive testing with him so maybe he can chime in.
@ Covetous dragon: At school today, i was trying to think of matchups where I'd rather have Dragon than Razormane and i couldn't think of one. Aggro's no contest. Control is no contest (artifact hate and deed hurt covetous more). Combo is close, but i'd rather have a 5 power that I can always cast than a 6 power I can maybe cast and might die to bounce. Razormane is also huge against the pro:red creatures that AS and FS run.
Chimeric Idol is pretty much the best 3-drop artifact creature though, and with all your spells sorcery-speed, I don't see the drawback being much of a drawback; it IS totally immune to your Rolling Earthquakes (and mostly to opposing Wraths too, or sorcery-removal in general) though. What I'd consider it is the 3-drop slot of Drooling Ogre/Bloodrock Cyclops/company. You only have 4 cards that need pitches, so the red portition doesn't need to be quite as large as the blue portition of FS, which wants to support 8 pitch-cards.
I hadn't considered the dodging quake, but it's extremely difficult and mana intesive to get a Jitte on Idol, which is sort of the whole point of that slot. it's also the reason why I like the 3/3 that has to attack over the 3/3 that can't block. That first turn holiding off lacey and the like can be huge. then you drop and equip jitte and go to town.
I'll bet everything I own that Arc Slogger is way, way, way better than Razormane Masticore. I mean, look at every format the two have co-existed in! In any deck that is capable of paying two red mana, Arc Slogger is always used above RM. Arc Slogger is far better than RM against Goblins, think about it, in the turn after you cast it, you can eliminate 4 of Goblins' best creatures, and that's singlehandedly. RM can only kill one, maybe two if Goblins decides to block, which is unlikely.
Arc Slogger can kill a Werebear with it's ability, RM cannot. This is important, because you don't have to engage it in combat. Arc Slogger can also end the game more quickly than RM, and later in the game can function sort of like a burn spell.
It also doesn't require you to run Squee, which is useless otherwise. And if you replace RM with Arc Slogger, then there is no reason to run Squee over, say, Chimeric Idol, because you're replacing red for colorless and colorless for red.
About Drooling Ogre, I would say that it should probably be tested, because you definately do have enough artifacts to make it's drawback a lot less relevant.
EDIT: I have also tested Arc Slogger and Razormane Masticore against the format many, many times, when I was playing with my Big Red deck, and I know for a fact that Arc Slogger is better than Razormane.
KIDS WITH GUNS!
Well, it costs you 2 mana each turn, so yes, it can be slightly annoying, but it's simply a matter of floating a bit and equipping. It doesn't seem like you'd have a mana shortage in that too often though. I suggest you test it at least; to me it seems like a much smaller drawback than having to attack each turn, even into 4/4s or Lackeys (when you'd really want to block).
Well, if there is not any good morph creatures, how about Suq'Ata Lancer?
Maybe the whole "Stompy" concept is wrong for the red version.
There is just no good 3 drop and playing crap like Squee and a 3/3 with Drawback for 3 Mana won't make a good deck.
I would see this deck in a rather controllish version without Jitte, but with Slogger, Crater Hellion, Slice and Dice and maybe something like Solemn Simulacrum.
Furthermore I think that in any version FTK should be a 4-off, since it is so awesome.
Why not P. Warbeast? Ok, so he's not good with Chrome Mox, so what?
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Instead of Warbeast, why not the new Phyrexian Ironfoot? Its a 3/4 that doesn't untap until you say so for basically 1 mana and 1 snow card. Make your mountains Snow Covered and he's better than warbeast. You can attack and then untap during opponent's attack phase.
Hardly a drawback I think. I played with this deck a little, testing out the ideas posted here with my own. Here's what I have come up with:
1. I don't like Covetous Dragon. Whenever I needed a creature that could kill little guys I never got one. So I chose Razormane or the Slogger. I liked both as both had their good and their bad. Slogger can finish off an opponent pretty quickly and hit those creatures that come up unexpectedly, like the EOT lackey. But I do have to worry about running out of cards. Razormane I didn't have to pay anything to take out a horde but is a bit slow in doing so.
2. I lose creatures too quickly against some decks like R/W Aggro. Phyrexian Dreadnaught is a loser in this aspect. Ironfoot had better potential as I can attack and untap when the 2/1's swing. Chimeric Idol is bad against this deck, but is great against non-red/white decks except its hard to equip it (well not hard but I had better options. Ironfoot, for 2 mana a turn I can create vigilance on it and leave the equipment which makes for mad counter buildup on jitte). I choose Ironfoot over the other two.
3. I almost always wished I had a SoFI instead of jitte. Burn and bounce are the two worst scenarios. I wish I had protection. Got it and never lost to either.
4. I tried Hunted Dragon instead of Covetous Dragon. It may create tokens, but in reality I should be able to block them and then clean them up with EQ. I liked the hasting ability which I believe is necessary. I thought about Rathi Dragon (nonhasting), and haven't tried it, but I believe losing two lands = game over most times for this deck. I was willing to pay extra mana except I could never pay it (Rorix Bladewing). I like the haste as I can actually swing with it before I lose the creature.
5. I liked Drooling Ogre. I didn't play against too many opponents with artifacts so it was an ideal choice. A first turn ogre and a second turn attached SoFI or Jitte made him an evil monkey.
6. Pyrostatic pillar is a killer on the first turn.
7. I added Molten Influence in place of Chalice (chalice in sb) to counter sorceries and instants unless the opponent takes 4. I always used it and the opponent always took 4. Came in handy versus lots of decks, especially ones that were dedicated to bigger spells. I wouldn't replace chalice with it though. Just a test, and I liked it.
8. That's all I've tried so far. Just added my 2.5 cents.
Love,
Noisome
How is having to pay 2 mana each turn just for vigilance not too much of a drawback. You are mana hungry enough as it is.
Drooling Ogre is way too swingy. There's tons of artifacts out there, pithing needle, ather vial, jitte, sofi and many many others.
"It may create tokens, but in reality I should be able to block them and then clean them up with EQ."
No, in theory you should be able to clean them up with EQ. In reality, you hardly see the EQ when you need it.
Is the 3 toughness the real selling point on the Cyclops?
If not, Craven Giant beats faster against non-aggro decks. Goblin Cavaliers is about the only 3/2 for 2R with no drawback. Also if you can pay for a 1RR creature, Cosmic Larva would be, uhm, funny I guess. Bloodscale Prowler may not be awful either.
If you somehow splash black, Sedge Troll/Sliver become options (although that means your mana base becomes a complete liability as opposed to saying, "Well atleast I have some basics").
Phyrexian Warbeast seems alright even if it doesn't work well with CMox. Losing a land drop is tough, but you've go so much mana in the deck I don't think it'll be an issue.
Along these lines, is it possible that a "mono-brown" deck with a higher land count, and with Mox Diamonds would be better? Juggs, Razormane, Warbeast, Oxxida Golem (?), Covetous Dragon, FTK, backed by Jittes/SoFIs seems like it might be better in terms of beating down as well as having a SB plan to switch to playing a more controlling game against combo (lock pieces).
Wow, lots of activity here:
Well, you know I'm not going to take anything you say lightly, so I'll try it, but when I tried War Beast here, I really hated that it didn't pitch. It sucks when you get an explosive draw with Song, Razormane, and Squee backup but you have to pitch one to a mox. Anyway, I'll test it and see how it goes.
Did a little testing with Arc-Slogger. Nothing definitive yet, but I came up with a list of pros and cons. See if I'm missing anything:
Razormane
Pros
- 5/5 First Strike is nearly impossible to kill by blocking.
- Unlimited Usage of Ability (Vs Sloggers reliance on library size)
- Puts swarm strategy's on defensive easier
- Can kill pro:red critters
- Easy to cast
Cons
- Occasionally Card Disadvantage
- Vulnerable to artifact hate and discard.
Slogger
Pros
- Pitches to mox
- Explosive Damage, including damage to face (great w/ Seething Song)
- Instant Speed removal
- Can kill a 4/4 before attacking
Cons
- More difficult for this deck to cast
- Can't hit pro:red (already a problem for this deck)
- Vulnerable to Needle (ditto)
- Limited usage on direct damage
- Beats for less
- No First Strike
Like I said, no decision yet, but that's my list so far.
While I appreciate your candor, you're wrong. Or at least, I think you are. If you take a look at our data, you'll see that we're already having amazing success with the deck and we're not looking for a major overhaul. FTK is a 4 of in Taco's build, and I'm thinking about cutting a Squee for another.
I like this idea, but now you've both cut the number of cards to pitch to moxen, and the number of keepable hands because now we need a mountain, as opposed to just a red source.
Sadly, yes. I hope everybody is reading this. Our 3-drop has to have at least 3 power and toughness. There is solid reasoning here. We want to drop a quick beater, and attack the next turn with or without a Jitte. Either way, the creature we have is attacking unprotected into a sea of Confidants, Meddling Mages, Hypys, Warchiefs, Watchwolfs, Fanatics, Mongooses, etc. So yes, a 3/3 is a world better than a 3/2, or a 2/3. I had been considering the 2/2 with haste and bushido (Ronin Houndmaster), but there are matchups (Thresh for example) where I side out the Jittes and a 2/2 would suck. Also, getting hit by Jet, Fire, and easier Gemplams isn't insignificant.
I appreciate everyone's interest and hope some people will pick the deck up and we'll able to get some more testing results and intelligent discussion.
There are a 3cc drop that is not being discussed here, I would like to throw it
out for some considerations.
Ember Beast 2R
Ember Beast can’t attack or block alone.
3/4
It has a slightly fatter butt than the Cyclops, can't be Bolted, and doesn't have double red in its casting cost compare to some of the other options. However, I haven't had the chance to proxying up the deck and try it out yet, so I'm not sure how relevent the drawback on the beast is. On the other hand, having 2 Ember Beast in play pretty much nullifies the drawback.
Thoughts?
Nothing witty to say.
If you need a quick 3-drop, any reason why Suq'atuq Lancer hasn't been mentioned? It has the ability to trade with 3/3s, shrugs off 2/x, kills almost any x/1 in the format, costs 2R, and can drop turn one for some quick hits. The only considerable downsides to the Lancer are that he's rather shoddy if you're not on the offensive and is a pretty bad topdeck late-game, mostly becoming Masticore/Mox fodder.
"This unholy weapon is obviously intended for Quality Assurance to massacre any creature in their path as quickly as possible." - Planescape: Torment
You haven't read very carefully..Read my post about 8 posts before. I was wondering the same thing but it was ignored. In the past Lancer was always picked to deck before cyclops.
The only creature with real quality is the Flametongue Kavu - that's why you should run 4 of them.
While synergy is always a nice thing you still need to play cards that are good on their own. Squee is a horrible, terrible, bad card if you hardcast it - I know it from playing survival. It is not even a good chump blocker or Jitte carrier. It dies with savage tempoloss, especially if you pay the 5 Mana with Ancient Tomb, to every removal in the format - even Gempalm Incinerator.
And while turn 1 Sea Drake was really impressive even without equipment a turn 1 Cyclops is nothing many decks will worry about.
So I think that the deck has some real potential but you have to find better cards for it or rethink the general strategy, maybe only slightly.
You can always consider Ronin Houndmaster if you think defense will be a problem. This one can block and kill 2/2's while staying alive.
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