In aggro lists, hell yes, by far you do not want durdly Talismans, you have a saturation of two-drops all ready to play on the first turn. In coloured builds though, although Talismans feel lacklustre, I've actually been surprisingly satisfied with them as fixing as long as you intend to play a longer game, as they're a compromise between the card disadvantage of Diamond and the need for reliable coloured mana.Originally Posted by Fox
Also Reshaper is a "may" so you can just draw the Chalice and cast it. Not amazing, but not the worst either.
Yeap I'm wrong. Guess I was getting my Eyes and Conduits mixed up, or something. I'll edit this to be correct.
You're not completely wrong, in that the deck has the capability for some Affinity-esque draws with Eye, but the deck can also play like typical Stompy shell just casting Chalice and big beefers. It can also play somewhat MUD-ish by having inevitability via Eye of Ugin. This multi-pronged game plan gives the deck a lot of avenues to victory unlike other Stompy lists who play more linearly. I wouldn't pigeonhole it into being just like Affinity, although it can have draws where it resembles it. However the deck can do much, much more.
Also yeah, I've been running Portal in the grind slots of my sideboard as a non-creature draw engine already. It's been great!
playtested a few games tonight. endbringer was surprisingly very good vs marit lage.
-rob
Good article! It should cover well the first steps with Eldrazi (the common colorless, aggressive Builds). I would like too see more with the different brews around, Midrange, Ramp, Splashes etc.
---------------
@GW Build: Eldrazi Displacer overperformed for me yesterday vs Sneak&Show, i was able to win the game with it vs Grisel&Emrakul on the field! Still i lost one game vs Blood Moon, only had Mox on the field and can't use (Displacer also on the field!) colorless mana in that situation. So i still find it right to play with Talisman (in midrange and ramp). The current version from Barook (as i mentioned, i test them as well now) includes 3 Talisman, 2 Mox - i also added 1 Wastes at Side since the first games vs Dragon Stompy (i formyself will not accept an easy lose vs Painter/Dragon Stompy etc.) and besides i lost some Games vs Moon, overall i am still positive vs this annoying Hate! I can't imagine that most builds work well in those situations besides the lucky "Turn 2, Seer, exile Moon in Hand" dreamland.
@Endbringer: Yes, if you can't use white for Displacer, Endbringer is a valid option vs Show&Tell, Lands etc. it would be funny if you can find room for 2 Lightning Greaves for stuff like, T1 Greaves, T2 Seer equip the hasty Boots or cast giant Endless One with Haste or simply upgrade Endbringer to an "Planeswalker" (Haste&Shroud will work wonders vs his "normally he is very very slow" performance), because his abilities are overall good, especially that you can use them at your and your opponents turn. If i would build an colorless build (even the Mimic-Aggro-Stuff) i would include 2-3 Endbringers in my pile of 75 cards.
EDIT:
@checking tcdecks for "Rogue" decks reveal some Eldrazi (we need to work to get our own section!)
1 from 28: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19588&iddeck=149092
Nice Midrange Mix, featuring Mimics for faster starts and many other good stuff like: Displacer!, Revoker, Endbringer, Ulamog, 2 Karakas main and Plains for nice Sideboard-Stuff! The core of the build should cover a lot of annoying situations and the only add i would snap add is Crucible (because the Build also runs 4 Wastelands) - interesting to see no City of Traitors!
Played a bit with the linked White-Build (see above). I like it so far! I would made some early (and only very small) changes so far:
Main: -1 Waste , -2 Bombs, -1 Ulamog, -2 Revoker, -1 Thorn (he used 61 cards)
Main: +2 Mishra, +1 Crucible, +1 Metamorph, +2 Endless One (overall slightly more stable and aggressive)
Side: -2 Trinisphere, -1 Null Rod, -3 Spatial Contortion (don't see the need of a spot removal that don't kill Gofy/Angler/Smasher)
Side: +1 Thalia, +1 Revoker, +2 Bomb, +1 Maze, +1 Priest (unsure if the white build needs revoker and stuff like maze, but Thalia and more Priest should work well)
1 from 32: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19547&iddeck=148785
Clearly more aggressive, Mimics, many Stompy Lands, no Manastones and 2 Endbringers as top end. I don't like Relic at Side, but deck&pilote sill performed well enough.
6 from 19: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19560&iddeck=148886
Overall colorless and aggressive, 1 Metamorph (like it!), also packs a pair of Endbringers and also Equipment (Jitte, Sword of FaI), very good Graveyard Hate here and should be well equiped to fight the mirror (Endbringers, Dismember, Equipment).
Last edited by MD.Ghost; 02-17-2016 at 07:52 AM.
TEAM MtG Berlin
I think SoFaI is a mistake and should be SoLaS which I will be playing instead. It gives you more inevitability against lands/reanimator with Faerie Macabre, and solves batterskull/stoneforge mystic. It also helps get you past Griselbrand for instance (Although this won't save you unless you have world breaker in play somehow). The life gain helps offset Ancient Tomb.
SoFaI is good in the matchups where the deck already performs.
I think I've been mentioned this, but I've been super happy with Krosan Grip in the sideboard; just unconterably getting the annoying Moon off the table feels great. But yes, we need Talisman/Mox Diamond for this, but as you said, Talisman's ability to still cast our colourless stuff is great.
This list is pretty compelling. No City is obviously odd, and I think the manabase should use Brushlands too (basically superior to Plains other than being Wastelandable, but making colourless cards castable and giving access to the almighty Endbringer seems good) though it's nice to see Talisman doing work here too. I also really like Revoker and Displacer in the deck - feels like when I Flickerwisp Revoker in D&T to change targets. Love it. White sideboard cards also seem strong to cover Reanimator and S&S, though yeah, as you said, Contortion I'm really not a fan of.
Also, updates on RG build:
Creatures: (18)
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 World Breaker
2 Conduit of Ruin
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Non-Creature Spells: (17)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Talisman of Impulse
3 Trinisphere
3 Punishing Fire
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Sylvan Library
Lands: (25)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Karplusan Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard: (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Dismember
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Warping Wail
1 Sylvan Library
As I've been mentioning, Grip from the sideboard is insane. Also yeah, Kozilek's Return makes a lot of the fair creature matchups very easily winnable, especially since I have PFire in the main too - which might be overload though. This list doesn't effectively address Lands, 4c Loam and some other unfair matchups though (which the white splash really helps with) but against a lot of fair matchups you can really sit back and relax, develop your mana and reach the Eye of Ugin end game pretty easily. Although I think GW is better placed overall because its access to combo disruption, RG can really grind some fair decks apart and really beats up on D&T, which I feel is quite unfavourable for normal builds.
Also - have we considered any other possible splash builds? I've really been curious about blue builds, actually. UR (like the Modern PT list) could be strong with Vile Aggregate for a lot of aggression, as well as potential burn (Magma Jet, etc.) and countermagic (Flusterstorm, I guess, since we can't run Force :(). Drowner of Hope is also likely to be a very strong card that has much more immediate board impact than the colourless go-to six drop of Endless One. UG could also be potentially strong with both Drowner and World Breaker. I'm not sure about this, and GW and RG seem like the most obvious splashes to start with since the mana bases fit neatly and have relatively strong options to take the deck, but I might go back to the brewhouse and see if these weirder builds have merit.
I agree with this, although pro-red is sweet for helping Revokers and Mimics dodge Bolt. I think lifegain is really important to get out of your Sword, so I would be eyeing SoLaS and SoWaP for that reason. I actually kind of like SoWaP a little more, since the Stompy lock elements of this deck (and the Wastelands) tend to strand cards in our opponents' hand, plus it gives pro-red. Unfortunately, we've tested Swords and found them lacking. I still feel like I want to have one in the main deck because my Revokers seem puny, but I haven't piloted it in a match yet so I'll default to my teammates' judgment.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
Protecting Revokers from Bolt seems pretty irrelevant to me. Revoker really only matters for decks with lots of non-land activated abilities (DnT, Storm, Sneak Attack/Griselbrand, Planeswalkers).
Jitte has been awesome for me. Lifegain is huge, and Jitte thrashes creatures. One hit will kill Delvers/Deathrites/almost everything from DnT, and make even Goyf/Delve guys managable if you have another creature.
Also important is that Jitte has often only required 2 lands to cast and equip. The "sneaky Jitte" is easy to pull off with this deck. That is, where you cast it and equip it in one turn, so your opponent is caught off guard.
Yeah, we are playing Jitte in our list, too. It's definitely the Level 0 equipment; that is, if you're playing any equipment at all, you should start with Jitte.
Protecting Revoker from Bolt was more for game 1. As you said, it's generally subpar against decks playing Bolt, although it can be quite good sometimes (DRS comes to mind). But if you're playing it in the main 60, being able to protect it from Bolt makes it a little more resilient in those matchups.
Jitte has been testing well enough for us. You can equip it to a larger creature first to get the first pair of counters, then move it onto the Revoker, and now the Revoker is protected against Bolt, as well as offering a great deal of board control and lifegain to offset Tombs. The cost also aligns superbly with the mana base, as you said.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
I cut one Rest in Peace from my Sideboard for a second Containment Priest.
Played 3 matches against Sneak & Show since my opponent wanted to test against Eldrazi as well. Parting words of my opponent: "I hope you don't share this list. :) I can't win."
Sometimes they just have the nuts (and my opponent played JMS for whatever reason, where it was actually kind of annoying in this match-up, compared to Miracles), but overall, the match feels really in favor of a white-based build.
Between multiple Karakas, 4 Displacer (+2 Containment Priest post-SB) - which all utterly wreck Sneak & Show, the combination with Chalice, TKS and post-SB Thorns is bad new for them. I like it alot.
I might move a 2nd Karakas to the MD in my flex land spot and leave the third in the board, opening up another SB slot.
I don't know how much you want to get into a Jitte fight with DnT; if they sniff out your lack of karakas, it is technically correct for them to leave Thalia in purely for Jitte->first strike->karakas bounce->re-vial thalia. It is generally most correct for DnT to understand that vs Eldrazi they are actually playing reanimator, and Batterskull is their Griselbrand - and once your opponent understands that (or the jitte-bounce-vial backup plan), this isn't a game Eldrazi is winning. In the absence of DnT punting the game away, you're wanting a package like this to stand a chance: Null Rod x2-4, wastelands (if budget winter orb stops porting), and crucible. Rarely against good DnT piloting, you will steal 1-Vial games by getting an explosive enough start to force vial to x=3 (panic flickerwhisp) - if it stays on x=2 you've probably lost without a specific hate package.
Note: this is another reason I advocate revoker as this matchup is actually terrible for eldrazi; but if you do revoker you can't afford to remove chalice even though they have flickerwhisp (need to tax their resources to swords a revoker).
@Fox I'm curious - what list of Eldrazi are you basing this analysis on? I feel like, depending on the list, the match looks different, so I want to know where you're coming from.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
@Delvis I believe it was South Florida Magic finals from 3 or so days ago [DnT vs colorless eldrazi] - it's an impressive case study (especially game 3) in how losing the game as DnT vs Eldrazi is basically completely up to you [DnT] in the absence of the most timely Thought-Knot Seer. Besides this I've watched a number of people piloting batterskull decks (I'd say SFM decks but s. florida magic mentioned earlier will confuse I think). Experience it for yourself though, watch those decks lose b/c they don't understand they're now a reanimator deck (for purpose of playing vs Eldrazi) - once you see lines of play from that perspective of thalia/jitte/karakas = elesh norn and batterskull=grisel, you'll see just how unwinnable the matches can be for eldrazi.
From the SFM finals pay attention to misused wastelands of DnT, punting vial up to x=3 in many games, port mismanagement, missing key opportunity to assemble thalia/jitte/karakas lines. On the part of the eldrazi player you will see a hero crucible, and more importantly not throwing away wastelands (these are reserved for ports primarily, then karakas - and correctly almost never wasting tapped enemy wastelands). As well as Eldrazi played, DnT pilot was the only one who could cause himself to lose, and did. It's not to say DnT was a bad player, but he clearly didn't understand he had to play like a combo pilot.
Port/wasteland decks are very dangerous to eldrazi, and non-stop porting after an uncontested turn one vial is probably scoop-worthy.
Displacer removes their equipped creature. It's really a major nuisance for them that demands answers, be it StP or Revoker.
Thalia chumpblocking with Jitte also doesn't work too well if you smash in with an equipped Reality Smasher (not that unlikely, actually). If you draw them, you could also use your own Karakas copies to bounce their Thalia to prevent shenanigans.
Batterskull gets also solved by Displacer, like many other problematic creatures. I could see Krosan Grip, which ChemicalBurns mentioned, doing some work here as well. I'll try one copy in my freed up SB slot and see how it goes.
please do tell us how those matches went if you still know the play by plays :)I cut one Rest in Peace from my Sideboard for a second Containment Priest.
Played 3 matches against Sneak & Show since my opponent wanted to test against Eldrazi as well. Parting words of my opponent: "I hope you don't share this list. :) I can't win."
Sometimes they just have the nuts (and my opponent played JMS for whatever reason, where it was actually kind of annoying in this match-up, compared to Miracles), but overall, the match feels really in favor of a white-based build.
Between multiple Karakas, 4 Displacer (+2 Containment Priest post-SB) - which all utterly wreck Sneak & Show, the combination with Chalice, TKS and post-SB Thorns is bad new for them. I like it alot.
I might move a 2nd Karakas to the MD in my flex land spot and leave the third in the board, opening up another SB slot.
If they pull of the thalia trick one time and have 1 life left, you lose. Thalia vial'd back in re-equip on their turn, Thalia with first strike kill your trampler if you attack [and it won't deal any dmg], and provide a 4 life buffer before non-first strike dmg is applied.
They can tutor equipment whereas you cannot. That said, a trampling jitte will always win, a displacer will always win, and a found karakas puts them on bskull only. They do maindeck revokers though, and life doesn't matter to combo as long as they have 1 left.
Except for ad nauseam. Never underestimate a clock with some disruption against a storm deck
Think you've misread, the point I make is that DnT (and batterskull decks in general) - piloted like combo - is a very bad matchup for eldrazi.
The general rules for DnT are:
-don't keep opening hand without some amount of vial/sfm/port. god hands are ok too, thalia/karakas/jitte and wasteland overload for example
-don't go all-in (tapping lands for SFM) to lose bksull to Seer; this should all be done out of eldrazi sorcery speed, even if SFM is exiled (obviously if SFM is last in hand you can vial in and fail to find in response to seer)
-don't tick vial to x=3 unless you're crushing eldrazi with double port, have second vial, or absolutely have to so as not to die.
-don't block unless it is profitable, or you will die b/c you don't. (there is an argument for chumping 5/5 mimic at higher life totals, but keeping revoker alive naming endbrindger is huge)
A fringe case from the match itself: DnT has wasteland and port, eldrazi has tomb/eye/wasteland (tapped) at end of DnT's turn. Port the tomb on upkeep, always. Hardcasting flickerwhisp [preserving vial on 2] is more important than port, and eldrazi might slip-up and waste port losing 3 mana on their turn, and topping out at 4 (eye + sol land from hand).
No problem, got the replays on Cockatrice, which also gives me some interesting insights on his draws:
G1: He plays S&T, I Wail, then follow up with Smasher and next turn TKS with him having no business left.
G2: He S&Ts in Emrakul, I put my Displacer in play, then play Karakas next turn. Follow up with Conduit and World Breaker killing his red source.
Match 2:
G1: I play Eldrazi Temple and discard Cavern to Mox Diamond for T1 Chalice @1, but it meets a FoW. Opp plays S&T, puts in Griselbrand, me World Breaker. He draws 7 cards and hits exactly what he needs - a second red source, Sneak Attack and 2 Emrakul to get past my Displacer. Bad luck. I die.
G2: I get Chalice @1 with Tomb. T2, I aggressively jam down Priest since I don't really have much aggro otherwise. He plays Jace, which dies to a pumped 3/3 Factory while Priest continues to beat face. My Reality Smasher draws out a force, so another swing for 4 with Factory and Priest. World Breaker for red source, then swing for 4. My opponent concedes.
G3: T1 Tomb, Chalice. My opponent opens with a T2 Jace (ugh). I play Temple and T2 TKS taking Emrakul. TKS gets Jace-bounced. I play Talisman and Cavern for another TKS taking Griselbrand. He gets the perfect Jacestorm into S&T, Emrakul and Omniscience. I die while tapped out, with Wail in hand. Fuck you, Jace.
Match 3:
He wins the die roll this time.
G1: I mull to 6, but keep an excellent hand with Tomb, Chalice and Karakas. My T1 Chalice gets pierced. He play T3 Jace (seriously, how many Jaces does he play?). I follow up with T3 Conduit, fetching World Breaker (Karakas still hidden) - Conduit gets Force'd. My opponent plans to go for Sneak Attack, but World Breaker kills his red source. I draw Wasteland for his Tomb (okay draw, but not really relevant) while World Breaker kills his Jace. He cantrips to setup another Sneak Attack, but once he played it, I activate Eye of Ugin eot to fetch another World Breaker to kill it. He plays Jace, but doesn't find anything of relevance. He concedes. Theoretically, he could have forced my second Breaker and Bounced my first one, but I had so much mana at this point that I could have recurred and recast the World Breakers over and over to completely wreck his mana.
G2: I try to be fancy and play T1 Mox into Cavern naming Human for T1 uncounterable Priest to get the beats down. I play T2 TKS, to which he responds with Kozilek's Return, killing my Priest. I take Through the Breach, since he was threatening Emrakul in two turns, leaving Jace to be cast next turn. Jace fateseals himself (to put him out of TKS range?), but I retaliate with a Smasher, killing Jace and beating his face for 4. He follows up with Sneak attack while I play Karakas, swining for 9, putting him to 5. Or course he topdecks the second red source, but being at 16 life and having enough permanents to not give a fuck about flying noodle monster beats, he concedes.
Looking back, the only times I lost were when my opponent went full lucksack.
If it's the list posted at the URL that's been shared fifteen times in this thread by random people popping in from reddit (http://southfloridamagic.com/the-evo...eldrazi-shops/), then I can see where that deck would have issues with D&T.
My build skips Moxen, Trinisphere, & maindeck Dismember, and plays fewer Endbringers main. Mox seems bad against D&T, because pitching a land makes you more vulnerable to Port and Wasteland, and they can name Mox with Revoker. It also gets hit by Thalia. Trinisphere can be good but is most likely bad, unless you can keep Vial off the table/stuck under a Revoker.
In contrast, I play maindeck Revoker, which does yeoman's work against them. I also play Metamorph which adds to my answers to Batterskull. Fewer Endbringers hurts a little because the card is effective at stopping Germ tokens and picking off most of their creatures, but is also almost guaranteed to be named by their Revoker. If you can't kill it, you've got 4 dead cards (in the SoFloMa list).
Wasteland is also useful against them, just adding to the ways you can shut down that Thalia combo you mentioned.
I'm also still thinking of trying out a miser's copy of Tower of the Magistrate in an effort to add percentage points in these equipment matchups.
Roses are colorless.
Violets are colorless.
Everything is nothing.
Yes, revoker is amazing specifically b/c you can name vial after chalicing them on x=1, then they have to get to flickerwhispif they want to swords - that's the lesson here, you really can't shave chalice against them post-board, even though mom is the most dead card printed and they will only have 7-8x one-drops left [4xswords, 3-4x vial]. That's the hidden 2-card combo cost of revoker; but assembling "no more stp -> no more vial -> your move DnT" is one of eldrazi's paths to victory...but needing 1x of each of two four-ofs without tutors (and in specific order) is asking a lot.
You still need some number of those silver bullets like null rods, winter orbs, towers of the magistrate, karakas, displacers, crucible, uba mask if this is a match-up you need to meta-game for in your LGS. Revokers are only so reliable without chalice [it is fine to stop here and say variance is something I'll live with vs DnT; I'll have chalice and revoker or I won't]. The difference between those silver bullets and saying "I'll use Jitte too!" is that the other ones (aside from Tower and Displacer) actually butcher a lot of fast combo decks and non-SFM fair decks.
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