[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Deadinthestreet]

Does recurring nightmare currently have a spot in a junk build of this deck?

[Navsi]

Nightmare is a very powerful card and often takes over a game, but has two issues :

- It doesn't do anything if you don't have a board, which makes it a pretty bad topdeck in a lot of situations. If you are in a bad position and looking to recover, it doesn't help much. Playing Dryad Arbor and a high creature count helps here because it makes it less likely that you won't have access to any targets.

- It makes the deck more vulnerable to graveyard hate. This is a real issue because a lot of the other powerful value cards you can play (Meren for example) also rely on the yard and have excellent synergy with Recurring Nightmare. The Nic Fit deck exists on a sort of sliding scale of how deep into graveyard shenanigans you want to go - initially you only use it sometimes, and adding Meren and Finks etc. increase your reliance, with Nightmare right at the end of the scale. It gives great value if you get it off, but you need to accept that sometimes your opponent is going to have Rest In Peace or Leyline or something and it's going to be worthless.

[Jain_Mor]

Anyone done any testing with Hallowed Moonlight in the board? It has game against Sneak&show, reanimator, elves, dredge and... Miracles. I know holding up two mana isn't usually our game plan, but it's a uniquely powerful suprise effect.

[sdematt]

Does recurring nightmare currently have a spot in a junk build of this deck?

Yes and no. Super powerful, but it's hard to tutor. Overall, I don't have enough slots to play it, and Meren has a similar effect and is tutorable. Up to you. I love the card, but no room.

Spiritmonger was something I was thinking about the other day as well. Observe: Spiritmonger

a) Nostalgia is strong. Oof.
b) Regenerate is saucy for our own Deeds and combat.
c) 6/6 is very beefy. Here's why.
c1) Takes on Angler and lives.
c2) Takes on average Goyf (4/5) and bigger Goyf (5/6) and lives, then grows larger.
c3) Changes colour to screw over protection like SoFF/SoFaI
c4) Doesn't die to Bolt/Decay

He seems like a real winner, but 5-mana isn't chump change. Sigarda is better all around at this slot, but I think he's worth considering, for sure.

[Deadinthestreet]

Spiritmonger looks awesome.

[TTX]

Spiritmonger was something I was thinking about the other day as well. Observe: Spiritmonger

a) Nostalgia is strong. Oof.
b) Regenerate is saucy for our own Deeds and combat.
c) 6/6 is very beefy. Here's why.
c1) Takes on Angler and lives.
c2) Takes on average Goyf (4/5) and bigger Goyf (5/6) and lives, then grows larger.
c3) Changes colour to screw over protection like SoFF/SoFaI
c4) Doesn't die to Bolt/Decay

He seems like a real winner, but 5-mana isn't chump change. Sigarda is better all around at this slot, but I think he's worth considering, for sure.

All of the above is significant.
In my testing it serves when you need it to. I like it as a defensive first,
offensive second. It pretty much only loses to Tendrils, Craterhoof and Emrakul.
Don't forget it against TKS, Smasher, Batterskull Germ.

[Echelon]

It's a beast. The only downside is that it doesn't have any form of evasion or trample.

I'm wondering though - vs. a deck that can be as explosive as Eldrazi Stompy, is a 5/6 CMC creature where one wants to be..? Sure, if you get lucky you can throw some fodder in front of the incoming horde before you stop them dead in their tracks, but I wonder how reliable it is.

In other news: I did some testing with my planeswalkers yesterday. Ajani was a beast. The turn you drop it, it finds you a creature. Then before that creature can attack it has gotten 6 +1/+1 counters. That's brutal. The combat walkers (Elspeth & Sorin) didn't really get a chance to shine, so I'm not sold on those quite yet. I'm not giving up on them either, though. Vraska hit the field once and killed a Bloodmoon. In all other cases my opponent died/conceded before she hit the field. Still not sure on her either.

I might take them for a spin on the next monthly I get to attend. At the moment my flex slots'd be Fierce Empath, Karador, Dromoka and Qasali Pridemage (I don't run ADs. Also, this frees up an extra slot in my SB). Another configuration could be Pridemage, Spiritmonger (although the Grand Prix version is incredibly ugly) and 2 yet-to-be-determined planeswalkers. Probably Ajani & Sorin. Sorin does combat and eventually answers Jace.

[Arianrhod]

Nightmare is a very powerful card and often takes over a game, but has two issues :

- It doesn't do anything if you don't have a board, which makes it a pretty bad topdeck in a lot of situations. If you are in a bad position and looking to recover, it doesn't help much. Playing Dryad Arbor and a high creature count helps here because it makes it less likely that you won't have access to any targets.

- It makes the deck more vulnerable to graveyard hate. This is a real issue because a lot of the other powerful value cards you can play (Meren for example) also rely on the yard and have excellent synergy with Recurring Nightmare. The Nic Fit deck exists on a sort of sliding scale of how deep into graveyard shenanigans you want to go - initially you only use it sometimes, and adding Meren and Finks etc. increase your reliance, with Nightmare right at the end of the scale. It gives great value if you get it off, but you need to accept that sometimes your opponent is going to have Rest In Peace or Leyline or something and it's going to be worthless.

Note that part B here is fixable with clever sideboarding. One of my personal goals with Nic Fit is to punish people who both do AND do not bring in graveyard hate vs us -- this generally depends somewhat on how g1 goes, how many cards my opponent is boarding, and my general read. Ideally you leave in Nightmare when they don't bring in hate, and take it out (leaving them with a bunch of dead card) when they do. Even if this isn't always possible 100% of the time, even getting it right 2/3 of the time is backbreaking for opponents.

[jbone2016]

Another disappointment with punishing rhinos tonight, although might be skewed a little.

Played my buddy who was Sneak and Breach.....and I got turned one by a Worldspine wurm....
2nd game was a bit better....I survived a hardcast Emmy and attack. To rhino him. Teeg slowed him a lot.
3rd game He boarded in goblin rabblemasters and gobbo me to death

2nd round, another Sneak and breach.
1st game: 2nd turn worldspine and death.\
2nd game: both mull to 5, Lilly and top grinded card advantage.
3rd game: more gobbos.

3rd round: Against TomiK
BUG Control
1st game: Never get control of the board with a large creature and die to some goyf beats.
2nd game: I mess up my therapy when he is tapped out (should have named brainstorm). Lily and Jace did me in.

4th round: 12 post.
1st game: He draws really bad while I strip his hand and get teeg/rhino out.
2nd game: He topdecks an Emmy right before I ultimate Lilly (also had teeg out)
3rd game: He has oodles of mana and an eye of ugin while I have a top with a slaughter games on top and a k-command in hand (both topdecking...of sorts). I decide not to draw the slaughter games and just use the kcommand to make him discard what he searches up. That didn't work to well.

Probably going to scrap to punishing fire rhino to go back to regular old junk version
Maybe this one: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=81714 (well close to it, not sure about mystics)
I will still have a red splash for slaughter games. Maybe for blood moon/from the ashes

[helvetios]

Hey, when running a junk build, similar to the one Bobmans runs (only differences are that i don't run courser and nissa, but do run a few deathrites), what split of Explorer/Deathrite would you recommend for the following meta:

Miracles, ANT, Reanimator, BUG Delver, UR Delver, UWR Stoneblade, Dredge, Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, OmniShow/SneakShow



And more importantly, is there something like a sideboarding-guide for nic fit lists, or are they just too different to write such a guide? if so, would someone care to give me a few tips how to sideboard against the above decks? Any tips are much appreciated!

my sb:

3 Duress (will pick up thoughtseize in the near future)
3 surgical extraction
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Pithing needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Qasali Pridemage (flex spot)
1 Hallowed moonlight (flex spot)

[Nargoron]

Miracles, ANT, Reanimator, BUG Delver, UR Delver, UWR Stoneblade, Dredge, Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, OmniShow/SneakShow

my sb:

3 Duress (will pick up thoughtseize in the near future)
3 surgical extraction
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Pithing needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Qasali Pridemage (flex spot)
1 Hallowed moonlight (flex spot)

Hi helvetios

My suggestion :
replace one surgical extraction with Rest in piece - becouse SurExt isn't enough against dredge and make your life much easier against reanimator, but its nonbo with meren, witness ...
its not standart in nic fit , but you are facing grave meta. BUG if dont run nemesis dont like rest in piece too... goyfs are 0/1 and DtS pure 1/2.
Hallowed moonlight replace with Containment Priest - you can live with priest, reanimator of sneak and show dont... so they have to dig for decay/pyroclasm and you have more time - again nonbo with meren, zenith.. but hurts your opponent more.
Choke is fine, but for nicfit i prefer Carpet of flowers - you dont have thalias, wastelands and so on... so i prefer carpet
and gaddok is in main?

[Warden]

Yes and no. Super powerful, but it's hard to tutor. Overall, I don't have enough slots to play it, and Meren has a similar effect and is tutorable. Up to you. I love the card, but no room.

Spiritmonger was something I was thinking about the other day as well. Observe: Spiritmonger

a) Nostalgia is strong. Oof.
b) Regenerate is saucy for our own Deeds and combat.
c) 6/6 is very beefy. Here's why.
c1) Takes on Angler and lives.
c2) Takes on average Goyf (4/5) and bigger Goyf (5/6) and lives, then grows larger.
c3) Changes colour to screw over protection like SoFF/SoFaI
c4) Doesn't die to Bolt/Decay

He seems like a real winner, but 5-mana isn't chump change. Sigarda is better all around at this slot, but I think he's worth considering, for sure.

I'm not sold. Still dies to a variety of non Decay removal, loses to terminus, has zero evasion. For 5 mana I'd much rather run Ms. Baneslayer, who has an equal overall value IMO. Only baneslayer gains life, has first strike, and can fly above a stalled board state. On D, Baneslayer is roughly even to Monger. On offense (main reason to play a 5 drop), she can quickly end a game. I feel monger will be chump blocked for days.

[helvetios]

Hi helvetios

My suggestion :
replace one surgical extraction with Rest in piece - becouse SurExt isn't enough against dredge and make your life much easier against reanimator, but its nonbo with meren, witness ...
its not standart in nic fit , but you are facing grave meta. BUG if dont run nemesis dont like rest in piece too... goyfs are 0/1 and DtS pure 1/2.
Hallowed moonlight replace with Containment Priest - you can live with priest, reanimator of sneak and show dont... so they have to dig for decay/pyroclasm and you have more time - again nonbo with meren, zenith.. but hurts your opponent more.
Choke is fine, but for nicfit i prefer Carpet of flowers - you dont have thalias, wastelands and so on... so i prefer carpet
and gaddok is in main?

thanks for the tips! :) yeah until now, i didn't run rest in peace, because it's a nonbo with my 4 maindeck deathrites, meren and witness. against BUG it would be handy, but i think that matchup is good enough already :) against dredge it would be awesome, but with 3 extractions i feel safer against ANT and Reanimator, since those decks are so terribly fast! (especially the reanimator list, on the draw, even getting to turn two is very unlikely) But i guess i could give it another try, maybe I'll just cut the pridemage instead, since 3 decays, 3 deeds in the main, and a krosan grip in the side should be enough artifact hate.

The thing with containment priest is, that it doesn't hit tokens. ANT brings in two copies of Empty the warrens, i think. Priest has the upside that they don't just have to rebuild, but also search for removal, though. He's definitely worth a try.

isn't choke better than carpet against miracles at least?

and yeah, gaddock is in the main! :)

[Bobmans]

Hey, when running a junk build, similar to the one Bobmans runs (only differences are that i don't run courser and nissa, but do run a few deathrites), what split of Explorer/Deathrite would you recommend for the following meta:

Miracles, ANT, Reanimator, BUG Delver, UR Delver, UWR Stoneblade, Dredge, Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, OmniShow/SneakShow

And more importantly, is there something like a sideboarding-guide for nic fit lists, or are they just too different to write such a guide? if so, would someone care to give me a few tips how to sideboard against the above decks? Any tips are much appreciated!
my sb:
3 Duress (will pick up thoughtseize in the near future)
3 surgical extraction
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Pithing needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Qasali Pridemage (flex spot)
1 Hallowed moonlight (flex spot)

Rest in Peace might give to much conflict with your own plan or causes awkward situations.

You have Miracles, ANT, Reanimator, UR Delver, Dredge and ShowandTell where Veteran Explorer will benefit your opponent aswell. Perhaps to much even. That is more then 50% of your meta. Also against all those decks (except SnT) DRS is actually pretty solid. It forces opponents to play removal on them, or stalls the graveyard strategies or gains just that bit of life to take over the game.

That said, comparing to my list i would probably want to max out on Shaman. Main is now 60 so i will -1 Explorer, -1 Courser and -1 Siege Rhino for 4x Deathrite Shaman.
Also, i will ALWAYS keep 1 Veteran Explorer in after boarding in any game where i board out explorers. So having 2 Carpet of Flowers in the board to replace 2 Explorers after boarding means that you can keep your ramping consistent. Also Carpets are superb against most of your field. Choke is also strong, but i'd rather keep ramping myself. While Pithing Needle is fine, i think one is enough most of the times. So -1 Choke and -1 Pithing Needle for 2 Carpet of Flowers.

For grave based strategies: Surgical Extration is not enough, Deathrite Shaman is also not enough. Scavenging Ooze is superb against grave strategies. Everything to get Scooze online (never get a DRS from GSZ if you can get Scooze a turn later, unless the situation dictates otherwise). Also, if you open your hand with Cabal Therapy, Deathrite Shaman and Swamp/Bayou ask yourself: Do i want a T2 DRS active, or do i need to prevent a T1/2 kill?

for Dredge: A well timed Surgical can cripple Dredge pretty hard. Most of the times you want to aim it at Narcomoeba since that gets their engine going. If you cast it on the trigger then your dredge player ain't gonna be happy. Your second target is Ichorid, basicly it does the same as Narco, but 3/1 haste is going for combat fast. You prioritize based on what flips after he dredges. Does he have another black creatures for Ichorid or can you Path a Narcomoeba without getting him to cast Cabal Therapy, get a bridge trigger or is he gonna play stuff like land, faitless looting, LED, Flash Faithless (in which case the first Narco is the best target for Surgical Extraction). Also never waste a Surgical on their dredgers, it doesn't affect them enough. On top of that, some run Street Wraith and just dredge away your target. Let them flip their deck and take their engine instead. If he ain't got 3 creatures on the board he can't Dread Return. Remember that Cabal Therapy flashback takes away their Bridge from Below. And calling Firestorm game 2/3 is important here.

Against combo on overall: You'll be boarding in most of the cards. Make sure you don't remove to much of your creatures, you still gotta kill your opponent. Against fair.dec; do not overextend on boarding, our plan is often already strong vs them.

[helvetios]

Rest in Peace might give to much conflict with your own plan or causes awkward situations.

You have Miracles, ANT, Reanimator, UR Delver, Dredge and ShowandTell where Veteran Explorer will benefit your opponent aswell. Perhaps to much even. That is more then 50% of your meta. Also against all those decks (except SnT) DRS is actually pretty solid. It forces opponents to play removal on them, or stalls the graveyard strategies or gains just that bit of life to take over the game.

That said, comparing to my list i would probably want to max out on Shaman. Main is now 60 so i will -1 Explorer, -1 Courser and -1 Siege Rhino for 4x Deathrite Shaman.
Also, i will ALWAYS keep 1 Veteran Explorer in after boarding in any game where i board out explorers. So having 2 Carpet of Flowers in the board to replace 2 Explorers after boarding means that you can keep your ramping consistent. Also Carpets are superb against most of your field. Choke is also strong, but i'd rather keep ramping myself. While Pithing Needle is fine, i think one is enough most of the times. So -1 Choke and -1 Pithing Needle for 2 Carpet of Flowers.

For grave based strategies: Surgical Extration is not enough, Deathrite Shaman is also not enough. Scavenging Ooze is superb against grave strategies. Everything to get Scooze online (never get a DRS from GSZ if you can get Scooze a turn later, unless the situation dictates otherwise). Also, if you open your hand with Cabal Therapy, Deathrite Shaman and Swamp/Bayou ask yourself: Do i want a T2 DRS active, or do i need to prevent a T1/2 kill?

for Dredge: A well timed Surgical can cripple Dredge pretty hard. Most of the times you want to aim it at Narcomoeba since that gets their engine going. If you cast it on the trigger then your dredge player ain't gonna be happy. Your second target is Ichorid, basicly it does the same as Narco, but 3/1 haste is going for combat fast. You prioritize based on what flips after he dredges. Does he have another black creatures for Ichorid or can you Path a Narcomoeba without getting him to cast Cabal Therapy, get a bridge trigger or is he gonna play stuff like land, faitless looting, LED, Flash Faithless (in which case the first Narco is the best target for Surgical Extraction). Also never waste a Surgical on their dredgers, it doesn't affect them enough. On top of that, some run Street Wraith and just dredge away your target. Let them flip their deck and take their engine instead. If he ain't got 3 creatures on the board he can't Dread Return. Remember that Cabal Therapy flashback takes away their Bridge from Below. And calling Firestorm game 2/3 is important here.

Against combo on overall: You'll be boarding in most of the cards. Make sure you don't remove to much of your creatures, you still gotta kill your opponent. Against fair.dec; do not overextend on boarding, our plan is often already strong vs them.

thanks for the specific tips against dredge! that really helps! :)

i guess I'll try out 3 explorers/4 deathrites in the main. opens up a slot for a hatebear or a nissa or a second ooze/gaddock. maybe even a Loxodon Smiter :)
carpet makes sense against those matchups where explorer benefits the other deck! I think I'll go with -1 choke, -1 qasali pridemage; +2 Carpet

Thanks for the help! :)

[Navsi]

Played in a small tournament today. Did not go well.

R1 grixis delver + entombed, reanimates and griselbrand:
He got the combo + a YP game 1 and I sat on two lands. Had wish for Innocent Blood but he made YP before I could cast it.
Game two I Therapy him and he rips Entomb and I die.

R2 Infect - can't kill Inkmoth with Decay, don't find deeds. Game 2 I don't seize him when he's on one card on hand so I can threaten Scape next turn, and he kills me.
R3 Infect again - same as before, I Deed some stuff away then die to a Blighted Agent.
R4 - Elves - I can't wish up Pyroclasm fast enough and die.

I drew a sideboard card a grand total of once today.

Thinking of running Punishing Fire next time.

[Deadinthestreet]

Took junk fit to a tourney for the first time on Thursday and due to some bad misplays on my part I didn't do too hot.

Being new to this deck, I think the most trouble I'm having is knowing what creatures shine when, when I should GSZing for certain creatures and also when to take out when I board. It's easy to know what cards to put in but I always feel like I shouldn't be cutting my creature count but that's probably wrong. I never thought of boarding out veteran explorer but as mentioned above it actually makes a lot of sense to replace two at least with carpet and like one with choke? And what matchups is vet bad in exactly? Would you take it out against burn too? AND WHEN THE HELL DOES COURSER OF KRUPHIX SHINE?

[Bobmans]

I never thought of boarding out veteran explorer but as mentioned above it actually makes a lot of sense to replace two at least with carpet and like one with choke? And what matchups is vet bad in exactly? Would you take it out against burn too? AND WHEN THE HELL DOES COURSER OF KRUPHIX SHINE?

Always keep one explorer in after boarding. Situation come up sometimes when you want to gsz into one to speed up a solid play.
You typically board out Explorers against Miracles and blue-based combo, namely SnT/Ant/Reanimator/HighTide. This is because those decks benefit more from basics then you do.
The benefit of Courser of Kruphix is that acts as a sort of Dark Confidant. Without SDT, it clears lands from your top so you get more chance to draw business. With SDT you often get to play a land and draw business. This clears your top 2 cards, making your SDT 1: ability much MUCH better. The lifegain is marginal but every bit helps.
The card is particularly strong in "slower" mu's where it helps transition from midgame to longgame. Winning the attrition war is important in grindy games and this card helps a lot at that. The card is pretty solid against Lightning Bolt decks Burn, UR Delver, Grixis.
Currently Courser and Nissa are fulfilling a similar role. Nissa seems better because she's more flexible and PW dodges our Deed. On the other hand, she needs a bit more conditions to be good. I keep both cards in the decl because botg cards help me ramp, stabilize and generate card advantage.

Edit: knowing what to GSZ for can be made a bit more easy. Ofcourse every situation is different.
1. Do i need more mana?
2. Do need something specific? (Gaddock Teeg, Scooze, Qasali, E. Witness, Thragtusk)
3. Can i generate cardavantage? (And maintain it)
4. Can i safely land Sigarda?
5. Else Siege Rhino
Notice that i always try to excecute step 3 before step 4. Setting up a CA engine sometimes cost me a turn, bit the pay-off is a better/faster grind.

And on the topic of boarding;

Against combo on overall: You'll be boarding in most of the cards. Make sure you don't remove to much of your creatures, you still gotta kill your opponent.

[TTX]

Took junk fit to a tourney for the first time on Thursday and due to some bad misplays on my part I didn't do too hot.

Being new to this deck, I think the most trouble I'm having is knowing what creatures shine when, when I should GSZing for certain creatures and also when to take out when I board. It's easy to know what cards to put in but I always feel like I shouldn't be cutting my creature count but that's probably wrong. I never thought of boarding out veteran explorer but as mentioned above it actually makes a lot of sense to replace two at least with carpet and like one with choke? And what matchups is vet bad in exactly? Would you take it out against burn too? AND WHEN THE HELL DOES COURSER OF KRUPHIX SHINE?

Courser is great against Burn and Merfolk. I think it's also good against all the Delver variants, even if they run Abrupt Decay.
Veteran is not good against Miracles or 12 Post. I like Veteran against burn, but it can be bad if they already have an Eidolon in play.
I'm no expert on Nic Fit, I've only been playing Junk for about 2 months. There are definitely many lines to be taken. MOAR RHINO! is usually a good
plan. Sigarda is insane, almost nothing can handle her. I've won against hardcast Emrakul because of Sigarda.
I'm still a proponent of Spiritmonger over Thragtusk (except against Burn), has anyone considered Loxodon Hierarch? It's Decay and Bolt proof, plus
has a sweet interaction with Meren.

[Gruby]

Hello.

About a Spiritmonger... it should be superb with Contested Cliffs. On paper it looks totally fun!