[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

[Davran]

wait, what? A guy walked into your LGS and made a 5 figure transaction on sealed product?

Granted, I'm sure they didn't give him what SCG prices those at, but.... even 7-8k seems like a lot to drop on such a product. i'm not sure my local store would even want to acquire that because it would be so hard to move for profit.

Yeah, it was pretty surreal. We're just sitting there playing EDH and the owner came upstairs to grab cash out of his office and chat with us about what just walked in. Not sure what the actual agreed upon price was, but the gentleman in question had a NM UNL Lotus and Time Vault, plus the sealed boxes still in their factory wrap. I know the owner quite well, and he was very nervous about the transaction, so I assume it was a fairly large sum being discussed. I also know that he has some friends of his that are generally interested in power and such when he is able to acquire it, so he probably has outlets for that kind of stuff that will at least get him a little return. Maybe not SCG prices or anything...but still profit.

Part of me would love to just crack those boosters for the nostalgia value...but they're definitely worth more sealed.

[phonics]

that's the thing tho, i can't think of any other collectibles that are actively played with.

The only thing I can think of that is vaguely similar is old instruments (violins ect)

[MGB]

So I have 5 MM Eye of Ugins left, 4 in my modern Eldrazi deck to play while the deck is still unbanned, and 1 in my Legacy MUD deck.

Question: Would I be losing alot of value if I held onto the Eyes until after March 19 (the last event I'd want to play Eldrazi in before the ban)? Would it be better to dump the Eyes RIGHT NOW *before* the Modern GP or would I still be able to unload them for decent profit as late as March 20th or so?

I paid around $2-$5 for each one, so if I can dump them for anything north of $15 I'll be really happy. I still want to play the deck in Modern and possibly Legacy, but I also don't want to miss out on making a profit while I still can. I can also re-buy later on if I want to play the deck again in Legacy, and it surely won't be a factor in Modern after the April bannings.

[TsumiBand]

Scorched Ruins got bought out. 2 sellers at 19.99, and 1 at 100.00. LOL

I keep trying to find any rationale for this. Is someone just trying to game the system, again, for the 100th time, or is there some legit playability in this terrible terrible card that has only recently come to light?

[Delvis]

I keep trying to find any rationale for this. Is someone just trying to game the system, again, for the 100th time, or is there some legit playability in this terrible terrible card that has only recently come to light?

I suppose they're speculating on its playability in Eldrazi decks due to it producing CCCC. But that deck is already vulnerable to Wasteland, and that land would just be like, "Yep! You win, [insert any deck playing Wasteland or Rishadan Port here]!"

I mean, it's on the reserved list. If you buy in at $10 per and it turns out to be playable, they could wind up around, I don't know, $50 or so, in short order. But they won't.

@MGB I would hedge and sell some while retaining some. If you sell just one at market value you should be able to recoup your entire initial buy-in, and then you're playing with house money.

[sjmcc13]

I keep trying to find any rationale for this. Is someone just trying to game the system, again, for the 100th time, or is there some legit playability in this terrible terrible card that has only recently come to light?

I can not think of any uses other than a Eldrazi themed EDH deck...

[MaximumC]

I keep trying to find any rationale for this. Is someone just trying to game the system, again, for the 100th time, or is there some legit playability in this terrible terrible card that has only recently come to light?

Cross-post incoming!

Speculators can and do lose money sometimes, and I bet whoever is trying the ol' pump and dump with Scorched Ruins is going to lose money after transaction and opportunity costs.

It is rare when you can tell that a card can't see play, but here, I think you can make a solid case that Scorched Ruins basically CANNOT see play, except under such bizarre conditions that I don't think any speculator would bet on it.

First off, what does the card DO? Scorched Ruins' role is to accelerate you from 2 to 4 mana in a single land drop on turn 3. To begin with, this is an very slow way to accelerate; MUD decks want to dump their fatties right away, not durdle until turn 4. To get this effect, you have to dump two other lands into the bin without tapping them for mana that turn. Alright, so that's what we have to work with.

1. Does this give you a benefit over other lands? Not really, no. Since you want <><><><>;, I think it's safe to assume you're playing a MUD or Eldrazi deck of some kind that can function off of colorless. So, you're probably also playing the Sol lands The minute you're sacrificing an Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Ancient Tomb, or City of Traitors, you're not better off than if you had just played a Wastes instead. You're much worse off than if you played a utility land or manland of some kind. True, it's cute to kill City of Traitors with Ruins' trigger instead of its' own, but you don't net any mana out of it. And also true, it is a cute way to dispose of spare Eyes of Ugin, but again, you could net the same kind of mana playing almost anything else.

2. Is there a downside to using Ruins? Absolutely. First off, it's a dead card on turns 1 and 2, and those are critical turns in Legacy. Worse, one Wasteland now nails 4 mana instead of 1-2. Wasteland on turn 3 after you drop Ruins is probably GG. Incidentally, even if this were Modern legal, getting Ghost Quartered is not a whole lot better.

3. Are there corner cases you can construct where Scorched Ruins has advantages over other Sol lands? Not really. Ruins does two things reasonably well: it puts lands in your graveyard and it consolidates a large amount of mana in a single land. Let's take a look at each of them.

Putting lands in your graveyard fuels Delve, so much so that a turn 4 Ruins (assuming you have an Island in addition) pays for Treasure Cruise all by itself. It also fuels the Dementia (or whatever they're calling it) mechanic from Shadows Over Innistraid. It might be giving the buyout artist too much credit here, but they might be betting some of the Dementia cards are so good that putting 2 lands in the yard is an awesome thing to do. However, as much as I would die laughing if [card]Mudhole[/card] became a thing, there are simply much more powerful and better ways to fill you yard in Legacy. Chiefly among them? Play the game. You don't need to mill yourself to grow Goyf and you won't play a land with the huge disadvantages of Ruins just for a free Millstone activation.

Consolidating your mana in a single land is great if you're playing some kind of effect like [card]Limited Resources[/card], [card]Land Equillibrium[/card] or [card]Balance[/card] that turns your having few lands into an advantage. But, no card like that is legal / good enough to play in Legacy. No one plays Balance - Cascade. Do we really think Wizards will print new cards that give you an advantage if you're low on lands or makes it easier to cascade into Restore Balance? Well, the original Innistrad block had a mechanic that made cards stronger if you were at low life. Cards that get better when you have a low land count, however, seem really hard to print; they go literally the opposite direction of every other mechanic Wizards prints, making cards that are better early and suck late.

(EDIT: [card]Land Tax[/card] gets a benefit out of you having few lands, too, and this is probably the only really cute thing about Ruins. If you play T1 Tax into T3 Ruins, you're probably behind on lands for at least the next 3 turns, letting you strip every single land from your deck. However, since you're playing White, Lotus Vale seems superior.)

4. For each of the corner cases you can construct to make Ruins interesting, are there already better options? You bet! We have lots of turn 1 plays that let us dump arbitrary amounts of cards into our graveyards without needing Ruins. If you want a low land count for a Balance effect, why not just play artifact mana?

Almost any kind of weird scenario you could construct to justify Ruins also justifies [card]Lotus Vale[/card], and probably moreso. That card is not spiking. Perhaps someone thinks buying Ruins will make it spike? (It shouldn't -- see above). This includes wacky new mechanics. Let's say they print a land that says "This land has all the activated abilities of lands in your graveyard." I'd want Vale over Ruins in that scenario, no contest.

In summary, Ruins fails the Tibalt test:
1. The decks that would run a card like this have better existing options;
2. This card is incompatible with those existing options;
3. There are better cards for any purpose you could imagine Ruins performing; and
4. The kind of new card that would improve Ruins is not likely to see print.

The only remaining possibility is someone hoping against hope that Lotus Vale and friends get their original text restored, which would of course make this a $200 - $300 card overnight, I would think. However, that change won't happen. At least as long as Mr. Tabak is in charge of the Oracle. To see why, let me link you to my exhaustive analysis of the subject. ;)

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m...ui-bono-school

From there:

A "Cui Bono" policy also explains why cards like Abeyance and Lotus Vale still have errata that preserves their functionality over rules changes, even though strict application of schools 2 or 3 would reject that. Without the change, Abeyance is nearly Time Walk and Vale is nearly Lotus. Wizards probably does not think reprinting the most powerful cards in Magic’s history is a good idea. Who can blame them? Mr. Tabak has actually explained it that way to me, saying "If we remove the errata on those cards and then ban them in all formats, whose interests have we served?" or something to that effect.

EDIT: If you doubt the folly of chasing Ruins, look at the eBay completed auctions. Since the spike, there have been EXACTLY TWO listings that closed at the new 19-20 dollar pump tag that I can find. Looks like the fishies are not biting, oh Captain of Industry!

[the Thin White Duke]

Oh snap! I just picked up 13 Null Rods at my LGS for $5 each. How can this backfire on me?

[Megadeus]

May i ask... What about Abeyance was changed? I may be missing something, but it seems pretty close to what the card says that it does. Was there some old rule that allowed it to do something unintended? What made it so special?

[bruizar]

text

I think you are forgetting the part where you can sacrifice double Urborgs/Eye of Ugins that you have stuck in your hand. But even with that going for it, it still sucks. The best I can think of is UU, Play Ruins, tap, play land equilibrium :/

[MaximumC]

I think you are forgetting the part where you can sacrifice double Urborgs/Eye of Ugins that you have stuck in your hand. But even with that going for it, it still sucks. The best I can think of is UU, Play Ruins, tap, play land equilibrium :/

I didn't miss any of that, Oh All Seeing Eye! I mentioned the interaction with legendary lands, and Eye in particular, and I mentioned the funny interactions with land-limiting cards like Equillibrium. I then reached the same conclusion you did - Ruins is still terrible. :)

May i ask... What about Abeyance was changed? I may be missing something, but it seems pretty close to what the card says that it does. Was there some old rule that allowed it to do something unintended? What made it so special?

As written, Abeyance stops lands for tapping from mana when read under Sixth Edition and newer rules. It has Oracle text that specifically changes this and allows you to use mana abilities.

[bruizar]

I didn't miss any of that, Oh All Seeing Eye! I mentioned the interaction with legendary lands, and Eye in particular, and I mentioned the funny interactions with land-limiting cards like Equillibrium. I then reached the same conclusion you did - Ruins is still terrible. :)

It seems like I missed that part :)

[phonics]

It seems to me that the puca trade manipulation is the most probable answer, just buy them out and spike the price and then put them into puca for instant profit?

And it looks like Thorn of Amethyst just spiked too.

[ESG]

May i ask... What about Abeyance was changed? I may be missing something, but it seems pretty close to what the card says that it does. Was there some old rule that allowed it to do something unintended? What made it so special?

Before the errata on Abeyance, it turned off lands producing mana via the line "abilities requiring an activation cost," so it was basically a white Time Walk that cantripped. For a short while, anyway. I remember people scrambling to pick up copies and the price shooting up (I recall $30, which was a lot at the time). Then WOTC issued the errata and people became much less interested. The card still saw play, but it wasn't broken anymore.



Edit: Ah, just saw Maximum C's reply in that multi-post reply.

[CutthroatCasual]

Oh snap! I just picked up 13 Null Rods at my LGS for $5 each. How can this backfire on me?

Sell me 4 for $40. 200% return.

Before the errata on Abeyance, it turned off lands producing mana via the line "abilities requiring an activation cost," so it was basically a white Time Walk that cantripped. For a short while, anyway. I remember people scrambling to pick up copies and the price shooting up (I recall $30, which was a lot at the time). Then WOTC issued the errata and people became much less interested. The card still saw play, but it wasn't broken anymore.

Seems pretty good in a deck that's mono creature removal.

[DLifshitz]

i can't think of any other collectibles that are actively played with.

Dual lands are being played with. The market for dual lands is not likely to collapse as long as there are people willing to play in some relevant Eternal format, which means, for at least a generation from today. But what's happening to random fringe cards, and cards whose only claim to fame is being on the Reserved List, will probably turn out to be a speculation bubble. They are nothing more than collectibles with no practical use.

[jrsthethird]

Dual lands are being played with. The market for dual lands is not likely to collapse as long as there are people willing to play in some relevant Eternal format, which means, for at least a generation from today. But what's happening to random fringe cards, and cards whose only claim to fame is being on the Reserved List, will probably turn out to be a speculation bubble. They are nothing more than collectibles with no practical use.

I think he meant things other than MTG. Like, no one plays competitively with their Star Trek figures.

[Mr.C]

I keep trying to find any rationale for this. Is someone just trying to game the system, again, for the 100th time, or is there some legit playability in this terrible terrible card that has only recently come to light?

Highest buylist currently is $6.70 (and rising, yesterday it was $5). TCG Mid last week was $3, SCG was $3.50 iirc. A cool, easy double up.

If I were in the US, I'd totally be participating in this right now. Unfortunately, shipping costs to Canada are insane.

The reason it keeps happening is that most people are greedy *and* stupid to buy into these things.

Edit: As for things that are "used" (played with), I can think of classic cars, which have gone through various boom/bust phases.

[chemicalstylez]

Anymore it just seems like "guess the card that's getting bought out next", lol. I've never in all my years have seen cards just wash up instantly. The more I search older cards the more I see evidence of buyouts, some of them aren't even noticed yet. Boy how times have changed.

[mini1337s]

I'd like to throw-out a question to the Forum.

What disincentive is there to buying out nearly any reserve list card that has not already experienced a buyout? Clearly, when they are not extreme (IE. Scorched Earth from $2 to $100) there is a track record of people panic-buying into non-proven buyouts, particularly on early expansion cards (Arabian - Legends).

As quick examples from Legends, cards I would consider unproven, but subsequently have seen major gains, both in retail AND in buylist, are:

Arboria
Divine Intervention
Field of Dreams
In the Eye of Chaos
Invoke Prejudice
Land Equilibrium
Living Plane
Storm World
Typhoon

While MTGstocks is super easy to manipulate, people, albeit many uninformed, are clearly buying into them based on Sold Listings on eBay.

Honestly, aside from an ethical reservations that one might have, you can double-triple up on trash with zero downside. The only people who really can "justify" the new prices are people completing sets, but I would be surprised at how many people are doing this. Based on the number of sales you can view on eBay (as start for determining sales), it makes you wonder how many people just take easily manipulated price aggregation as truth, and from there is becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Typhoon, which is LITERAL garbage in every format, has gone from $.99 to closing on eBay at $15-20 USD just because some decided to create a price-spike.

All that said, there are cards out there that I believe could legitimately see justified price increases, though those cards are in the majority. A lot of them already happened and were supported by legitimate demand based on rarity and use. A couple good examples of this would be Legends Sylvan Library, Legends Underworld Dreams, and Alpha -> Unlimited rares that are played as 4 of's in Swedish 94 (Jayemdae Tome, Mana Vault, Armageddon, etc) that people want to pimp out their old school decks with.

Please note, I'm not advocating this (and don't do this), but anyone, even those with ethical reservations, essentially is a sucker for not doing this.

As a side note, and I'm not trying to encourage buyouts or panic buys, but I keep my mind on the following:

Alpha - Beta:
Hypnotic Specter
Power Sink

Beta:
Icy Manipulator

Arabian Nights:
Kird Ape

Antiquities:
Jalum Tome
Power Artifact (unless re-restricted in Swedish 94, which there is a high potential of)

Legends:
Mirror Universe (ENGLISH only)

If you have them on your radar for personal use, I would suggest getting them sooner than later. I know this is a public forum, but all of these are cards I am legitimately surprised haven't been bought out.