Probably 50/50. If they don't have CotV, you're basically free to run them over. Apart from Warping Wail they can't interact with Glimpse/NO/GSZ. If they do, you have a very limited window to answer it.
Half a year ago I already pointed at more Sages to battle Counterbalance/Chalice/Jitte/etc. and I think it still appliesOriginally Posted by Echelon
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But who talked about the mirror ? I did not understand this lol
What tends to be the bigger threat for us, spot removal or mass removal? I realize that spot removal only affects one or two guys at a time, so one might easily conclude that mass removal is worse for us; but I'm thinking about the types of cards we are most likely to face. For instance, do Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares tend to cause us more problems than Zealous Persecution and Toxic Deluge?
Not enough talk going on in this thread, so here is a small tournament report.
20$ Monthly Tournament - 16 people in attendance
Decks
Miracles - 3
Lands - 2
Merfolk - 2
Reanimator - 2
Death & Taxes - 1
Grixis Delver - 1
High Tide - 1
Jund - 1
Turbo Depths - 1
UR Landstill - 1
? Unknown - 1
The List
//Creature (30)
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shaman of the Pack
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
//Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library
//Instant (1)
1 Crop Rotation
//Sorcery (8)
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
//Land (20)
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Aura Shards
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
Play by Play:
Round 1: Reanimator 2-1 - G1 T2 Grizzlebrand was to much; G2 & G3 was just 3-5 damage beatdowns every turn (had some combination of hate to lock the games down; Teeg / Karkas / Scavenging Ooze / DRS)
Round 2: Merfolk 2-0 - G1 & G2 Glimpse chains (match was on camera, though only game 1 was uploaded; I apologize for my terrible mana management I never brought dice...)
Round 3: UR Landstill 2-0 - G1 & G2 was just 3-5 damage beatdown every turn
*I was the only one that could for sure draw into top 4, as I was the only undefeated and there were a bunch of draws[miracles...]. Drawing or winning puts me into 1st and losing would most likely mean 5 people at 9 points but my breakers were good. Drawing was bad for my opponent so we play it out.
Round 4: Jund 2-0 - G1 all the 2 for 1s he has are no match for Wirewood/Visionary card advantage; G2 boardstate stalls out but I can bounce and replay Dwynen's elite many times and eventually land Packmaster, a top deck GSZ means a lethal swing for 285 damage (pictured below)
Quarterfinals: Land 1-2 - G1 I land T2 library and blindly draw all three (the fuck-it library) and he went T3 make Marit Lage, on T4 I draw all the cards again going down to 2 life, the 3 cards being GSZ, Glimpse and Cradle and I combo off (this match was also uploaded, but just game 1; I am unsure why he tapped out to make Marit Lage on his turn, but it worked in my favour as I could go down to 2 life with Library without worrying about Punishing Fire) G2 He gets T2 Trinisphere and has a Punishing Fire / Loam in GY and is tapped out I go for a risky play with EoT Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog which doesn't pay off as he draws Wasteland and has a second Loam already so I get locked out the rest of the game; G3 he goes T1 land - Exploration - Tabernacle... I managed to play through it with Quirion, Heritage and double Wirewood and even manage to draw an extra card or two with Visionary but never draw a cradle to get ahead, he eventually went EoT double Crop Rotation for Riftstone Portal into Thespian Stage for the win, I just needed to have 1 of my two Crop Rotations in hand and I could of fetch Karakas to blow him out, as he was down to only 1 land after double Crop Rotation and making Marit Lage and Tabernacle was in the GY...
Just another tournament where I am undefeated in the swiss but loss in the playoffs… but we did do a top 4 split at least.
Videos:
Round 2 - Game 1 - Merfolk -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMMcwZ1lGKE
QF - Game 1 - Lands - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aWzZgW2PQc
Note 1: This is the first time I picked up Elves in close to a month as I have been playing Eldrazis; so all my plays may not be the most optimal
Note 2: The playmat… this picture was taken by me of one of my buddies during GP Seattle last year, so of course I had to make playmats:)
Picture:
A measly 285 damage...
Winning Decks:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11689&f=LE
Note: Looks like the lands sideboard is not correct as he did have Trinispheres
Congrulation :)
Interesting sideboard
just not sure about Aura Shards cose if for example counterbalance lock you... u r screwed. Chalice and your hand full of 1 cmc ... again. I can imagine better ench/artefact hate
By the way, guys , have you ever hear about Bygone Bishop ?
2/3 flying body for 3cmc + these artefacts. In my oppinion much better then Mentor of the Meek.
but yea decayable, boltable, swordable....
What are you really asking here? Is it whether it is better to have creatures with hexproof or regeneration or pumping or other abilities?
I have had some good success with Aura Shards, typically if I am running a white splash I have one in board. This is due to there being some kind of MUD / Stompy deck(s), Enchantress or Tezzerator in my metagame that this is a good answer to. I also really like it versus Miracles & D&T.
Note: Aura Shards can be cast through Counterbalance fairly easy and no one has Chalice on 3; after it is in play all you need is Cavern of Souls, 2 or higher CMC creature (harder to do through CB), GSZ or fetchland for Dryad and you can break CotV/CB. (there is also typically 1-3 Krosan Grips/ Abrupt Decay in my board for answers as well)
@ Krasman:
Congratulations!
Im really excited about these new NO-less lists with all these tech cards and silver bullets, but still a bit sceptical! Did you miss NO in any of your matches?
Maybe there's room for a compromise between the traditionell 3 NO / 2 Behemoth build and the 0 NO / 1 Behemoth ... something like at least 1 NO ?? 2 NOs wouldnt be that reliable with only one Behemoth I guess...
With Eldrazi as a rising power I would expect NO to be relevant more often again. A fifth tutor would also be helpfull to have better access to our silver bullets already preboard (while NO for Gaddock would not be the most elegant way, it could be necessary sometimes). What do you guys think?
In my oppinion and experience, i missed NO alot...
There were too much games when i just be in occure situation, like 5x 1cmc dudes and sadly watching chalice... or keep drawing just some mana dorks when i need some more valuable card. According this experiences i switched back to NO build. Ok there are MUs where NOless build is better, but its simple to side NO out and replace them with sb cards...
Unfortunatly you cant keep gaddock teeg in main and you have to add second Behemont.
Iam still thinking about replace one behemoth with Ruric. The main reason is becouse 6 mana( or 7 with zenith) is much much easier to hardcast then 8-9 of our lovely beast which is very often just dead card in my hand.
BUT ...
When i want to play ruric, i have to sacrifice white splash to red splash, then i probably cant side in gaddock and put ruric t2 to game is ... harder then gaddock.
On the other hand you have GG card against some combo in g1.
Next disadvantage is: situation when your beast is in your hand and you neccesarily need to win this turn, which you just can't without second hoof.
So my question on you guys, what is your oppinion? Which colour you prefer more? Red or white? and why?
And now iam talking about camon meta .... if you have to play in some unknow metagame
Thanks :)
some examples:
RED:
Blood Moon
Red elemental Blast
Ruric
WHITE:
Gaddock Teeg
Thalia
I been be off Natural Order for over a year now; but have mostly been tinkering with Collected Company as well as Cloudstone Curio as alternate win conditions, both to varying success.
At least 70% of matches I was siding it out Natural Order and the card really just felt bad in a lot of matches; sure you are missing the "I-WIN" card as most people describe it, but you can still Glimpse chain into wins fairly easy.
As for the silver bullets, you do get some free wins:
- most storm decks whether it be ANT, TES or others can't beat Gaddock Teeg G1
- also GY decks don't expect Scavenging Ooze main deck and it can win on spots that DRS can't
- and Wren's Run Packmaster does a lot of work against the fair decks and stalled board states
Winning more G1s that could be unwinnable before definitely make some matchups better as you still have the same sideboard cards coming in like discard and the like and some more tricks with crop rotation fetching Karakas / Bojuka Bog.
TES typically has a Void Snare in the wishboard, but most ANT lists do autolose to Teeg G1. Still slows TES down a lot, they have to find a second tutor and accept the beats in the meantime.
Which MUs are exactly in your mind?
You can glimpse to win, ofc you can... but its just one card in 4 copies in your deck. So if there is no glimpse in your opening hand or your single glimpse eat some sort of counterspell, you have just few little guys... doing nothing special, until their number is huge enough and you draw zenith.
NO build is much less depend on situation. But yea... be careful.
If you have 7-8 ,,win" cards, there is no problem to play 1cmc glimpse to eat counter, then play order, or conversely.
Gaddock in main- yea its nice to have it against ANT/TES but in other MUs its dead card which blocks your zenith
And silver bullet against storm - thats why iam talking about ruric in main insted of second hoof.
But yea, place T2 ruric is just not enough often as T2 teeg (3 mana is just less then 4 mana)
Wren's Run Packmaster - this dude is cool, i like it... unfortunatly lots of MUs its just ... nothing
Miracles just swords him or let you waste your mana for tokens and then terminus
Or you cant play him if you have just one elf and opponent has some removal..
Then some combo decks - there is Packmaster just too slow
Fair MUs -DnT,BUG and new eldrazi etc., he is superstar and definetly deserve be ,,nominated" in your 75
Ooze - combo MUs dead card, miracles nothing special unless you eat all swords from opponents grave, but can't grow up becouse your creatures are on the bottom of your library or exiled.
BUG dont like ooze ^^ but is decayable..
somthing with red and bolts, you have to cast ooze when u can pump her in turn where ooze came to play.
MUs where Ooze shining are winable for me g1 without ooze, i have no problem to put ooze to sb (except reanimator).
You're not looking at the build and card suite as a whole. You're saying this card is useless in situation it's not meant for, so NO is better. But that's why you have a toolbox.
NO is good because it is fast vs. combo (GSZ for Teeg is faster).
NO is good against fair decks because it dominates their board and just kills them. Packmaster does the same, and attempting to cast or GSZ for Packmaster doesn't cost you board state.
Miracles StPs Packmaster? Sounds good to me. It means they leave Dryad Arbor to run rampant or leave Teeg alive - they have to kill Teeg with StP or a flashed in creature. With Arbor, Teeg, WRP, Symbiote+Cavern they just have so, so much to kill they can't kill it all. You kill Symbiote and Teeg, you leave Arbor and WRP. You kill Arbor and WRP, Teeg locks you out. Kill Teeg, do you have StP for Packmaster? And when you kill her, Elves still has a board and maybe drew a card or got a DRS to exile that StP.
Packmaster is slow against combo, yeah. That's why you have Ooze, Sage and Teeg. They are not slow. They are faster than NO.
Ooze is not a dead card in combo MUs - it's the only prayer you have against Dredge, and if it gets going it does bad things to Reanimator and Storm - it's both good beatdown to make Nauseam worse and locks out Past in Flames.
Ooze isn't for BUG, though Ooze is nice vs. them too. RUG is what hates Ooze. And again, they hate Symbiote more. Dies to removal is not an argument when removal is limited, and they really really want both Ooze and Symbiotes to die.
What IS for BUG is Packmaster. Packmaster destroys BUG decks so bad it's barely even fun.
I don't know how some of you play the deck but "just some small green guys" is how I win 50%+ of games.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
maybe problem is, that i play just too much against miracles xD
aaand get frustrated with this MU
I am not saying thats my ideas are the best, just share with u to get advice from u :)
When i play vs. miracles - they show me 5-7 swords per game... soo. Waste one swords isn't enough for me.
If you play against Miracles a lot, play Chaos Elves. It's built to prey on Miracles and Storm. And like Julian says, a couple small green guys is how you win vs. Miracles. You prod them to death with a bunch of 2-4 point swings.
Thats exactly what i can't do... t2 counterbalance without cavern with force for zenith fetching Reclamation and gg.
6-7 swords + 3-4 terminus...
and best scenario Mentor with 2 tops....
Before sb i feel rly rly bad in this MU. With decays and chokes its much much better...
To be honest i never know, what is the right strategy.
If i save some guys in hand expecting terminus, get counterbalance...
Put all in expect counterbalance, get terminus...
I feel as if he had all cards all the time... if iam afraid of terminus, terminus, afraid of swords, swords, afraid of force, force... or counterspell... their digging spells are too much efective to have right card in right time
Most of your wins are really just by beat down so I don't see to much of an issue.
I gave Chaos Elves a try last weekend and felt pretty disappointed with the build. Packmaster wasn't that good for me in the matchups I had (admittedly, he got hymn'd away against Shardless BUG). Making wolves often felt super slow. I did end up with some bad matchups on the day, as well (Spanish Inquisition killed me turn 1 both games in the first round, before losing out the rest of the event to FoWs). I switched back on Natural Orders for some legacy side events in Detroit and felt much better with it. I even took down Miracles, albeit a clunkier Enlightened Tutor/Helm/RiP build.
I jammed a Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury in the sideboard for some (extremely deep) Miracles applications, but only drew it in the midst of a kill turn once against Miracles. I feel like all 3 modes are quite good against Miracles, but the cost is probably too high. I'll wait to see how it is in practice, though.
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GRIP EM ALL 1989
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