Do you run the 2 Swan Song in addition to Warping Wail? Before Origins, Glacial Chasm helped a lot in this MU, but Shaman of the Pack simply ignores it :-/Originally Posted by Morden
Hey so I'm looking at this list I wanted to ask about a few of the choices:
Crop Rotation - Do you feel that 2 is enough? I haven't yet dipped below 3 in my UG list, I understand that there's only so much room and something's gotta go to make room for the other spells but I'm not sure if this is it.
Warping Wail - This card can be a real house, also feeling like 3 would be the right number here, but again...space constraints.
Show and Tell - I've cut this to 3 in the UG versions, I felt I was seeing 2 of them when I didn't need the extra far too often. Have you noticed this as well? Would be one place to get some space.
JTMS - How has this performed as a singleton? It's not a normal card for these builds, though I can see the potential power, just wondering if it's providing much in the slot when it could be something else.
Glacial Chasm - Not having this in the 75 seems strange, there's a number of matchups I really want this card for, even though I hate playing it because of the extra land sacrifice it requires. But it just does so much to the board states.
Thought-Knot Seer - Have you given this any thought? I've been playing with 3 in the board and they're already providing dividends in some of the combo matchups. It would have won me a game vs OmniTell had it not been for the backup burning wish in his hand.
Edit: I know this is an old list, since you're talking about Swan Songs main now, so I'd be interested in seeing what you've evolved to as well. After this week I think I might give the white splash a try. It was that or G/R, but I think I like Terminus over Kozilek's Return for the same reasons.
Right now I'm thinking about Scroll Rack as a 1-off... Maybe it's a replacement for JTMS?
crop rotation - it has 2 functions: tutor for a specific land and protect against wasteland. Since I run 3 needle, I have a good protection against wasteland (needle have so many function, I will never drop under 3). Crop is also very very good if you play chasm and bojuka bog, and they are not in my main list. The downside of crop is that is very bad against heavy-counter deck / miracle.
Warping wail- I run 3 terminus and 1 StP, I'm quite protected against creature (EVERY kind of creature.....warping wail against reanimator is useless for example). I used warping wail, their slots is now taken by Swan Song. So I can handle creatures and combo as well.
S&T - their number basically depends on the number of creatures you play. Sometimes I drop 1 of them post side, but maindeck I wanna be sure to see them.
JTMS - this card is under testing......I played scroll rack, but it suffers artifact hate (post side the artifact hate is one of the main strategies opponents have against us) and in late game is useless. jace can win some game by itself and gives cards advantages. Sadly, we cannot protect him against creatures as miracle does: when it comes into the battlefiled, turn 4/5, usually the opponent has some creatures down, and Jace dies the turn after. I don't know honestly, probably I will change it with a sylvan library (no artifact hate, no chalice on 1, can give card advantage in game like storm and infect where life points are not so important, etc etc etc)
glacial chasm - the only matchup where it is super good is infect. A good burn player can play around it when he sees an open green mana...... terminus and platinum emperion are better to protect us against creatures. Maybe I'm a very unluck person, but chasm 90% of times for me is "you don't die now, you die in 4 turns".
Thought-Knot Seer - they deserve a test for sure. At the moment I don't know what to cut for them......blue gives us better answers against combo. Seer is so powerful in eldrazi stompy because it can be on the ground on turn 2, in my deck this is very unlikely to happen.
no, the songs replace the wail. good for chasm, another reason to drop it XD
oh yes, I changed the list by the way........2 swan song maindeck instead of warping wail. Having these counters maindeck gives me the possibility to drop 1 Beb for a glacial chasm in sideboard.
2 Platinum Emperion
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Show and Tell
2 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Expedition Map
1 Forest
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
3 Terminus
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Flooded Strand
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
A couple new cards ive been trying lately with success with personal tutor and temporal mastery. Personal tutor in this sets up a terminus, temporal mastery or puts a show and tell on top of our library. My list has been able to shave on those then to accustom this.
35 spells 25 lands
3x show and tell
2x terminus
1x temporal mastery
2x personal tutor
3x crop rotation
2x candelabara
3x sensei diving top
4x brainstorm
3x force of will
3x pithing needle
2x warping wail
4x primeval titan
1x ulamog new one
1x kozilek new one
1x platinum emperion
The other version ive been tweeking is fastpace exploration build which can and has powered out turn 2 titans and eldrazi. This build I lieve gives us the fastest possible outcomes for the deck.
34 spells 26 land
4x ancient stirrings
4x exploration
4x green sun zenith
4x crop rotation
2x warping wail
3x sensei diving top
2x pithing needle
4x primetime
1x kozilek
1x emrakul
1x oracle
1x ugin
2x candelabra
1x magus of the candelabra
Last but not least was a fun brew which has been taking a lot of people by surprise
3 Temporal Mastery
3 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
3 Warping Wail
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Force of Will
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Flooded Strand
1 Expedition Map
If you want to try and sweet exploration build brew try this
// Deck: 12 post turbo (60)
// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
6 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
// Creatures
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
// Spells
2 Alhammarret's Archive
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Horn of Greed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Elderscale Wurm
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Hi, i think Horn of greed is dangerous...
I'd agree, that list is full of fun stuff, but it's not a very good list, unfortunately.
Horn of greed can certainly be dangerous. Allowing your opponent to draw into cards is certainly not ideal. However, we can take our top end really quickly and find what we need extremely fast as a result. List is untested as of now. Hopefully I can find time to test it soon.
I will say that it's really unfortunate that there isn't actual constructive conversation rather than, "it's not a very good list" I would presume that seasoned players can come up with something a little better than that.
Horn of Greed wasn't very impressive to me when I tried running it. It falls to a lot of the same shortcomings Exploration does: the card is typically a miserable topdeck and does nothing by itself. There may be some super off-the-wall case where it's usable, but in anything resembling a traditional list, I think you're going to be disappointed. Also, keep in mind that its ability only works on lands you actually play from your hand (or graveyard, in the case of Crucible of Worlds): fetchlands, Crop Rotation and Primeval Titan will not trigger it.
I've been trying some off-the-wall brews, including a 10 Sphere effect maindeck with Ancient Tomb, and I've also tried a Retreat to Kazandu lifegain build with Alhammarret's Archive and Oracle of Mul Daya among others, but pretty both lists are only about 50/50 winrates for me, which likely means they're crappy ideas.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
I am aware of how horn of greed works in reference to crop rotation, fetchlands and titan, but I appreciate you being thorough to ensure.
I will likely agree. Playing lands for value is probably really only good when it's paired with life from from the Loam which is not exceptionally viable when trying to run the old eldrazi. It was an interesting idea I wanted to try, figuring we could benefit from digging deep more than our opponent. Archive is likely a weak part and can be switched for something more relevant early at the very least.
Thank you for your input especially as it comes from experience.
Sorry, I was at work and didn't have a lot of time and I know Caprino has been prepping for an event and being new to this deck it may be hard for him to distinguish between the established core of cards and ones that are being tested out, I just wanted him to be clear because in that situation, for him, he's better off running a more stock list (of whatever color combination).
I do apologize, it was not constructive and I should have elaborated. My main negatives on the list were Horn and Archive, both of which Zotmaster has elaborated on already and I agree. Archive doesn't really do anything when it hits the board, it doesn't win me the game and it doesn't prevent my opponent from killing me. So for a 5 drop, it doesn't really do anything for me. And given how few slots you do actually have for techy cards, it's not at all worth it - especially since there aren't a ton of situations where you're drawing extra cards, realistically.
Fair enough. As you stated zot already clarified the weaknesses. Archive is there as way to benefit further from horn and courser as well as be a part of an engine to draw and ramp. Thank you for following up with your reasoning. Sometimes I post while I'm busy at work so I can understand the brief post.
As far as a core of cards goes this is certainly not a stock list for anyone. For Caprino
This is my list for GW, it has gone through a couple changes but I got top 8 at SCG 1K providence last year with
// Deck: 12 post (61)
// Lands
4 Cloudpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
// Spells
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
4 Explore
2 Natural Order
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Elderscale Wurm
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Oblivion Stone
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Sacred Ground
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
I would love to take this deck to the next tournament next week, but I doubt whether it can hold its own against the super quick goal that we now es Eldrazi, mono white, Delver, not to mention wasteland ... what you think ?
Look other players' games, streaming, or better a local player near to you. You will understand better the pros and cons of this deck, and you'll be able to handle it better. If the tournament you are talking about is a big tournament and you are not confidant with the deck, I will suggest you to avoid bringing it there.
what are the internet channels where I can see the video while playing this type of deck? thank you
I have a fantastic win rate with it vs death and taxes. It ramps a bit faster so eldrazi shouldn't be an issue so much, I have needles plus sacred ground for wasteland decks especially lands which I have had positive results against. The main issue naturally is fast combo. Non blue builds don't tend to pair well, but sphere effects and leylines can square those away
on youtube you have snapcaster, geekfortress, simply search for "12 post legacy", "cloudpost legacy", and so on. Zotmaster and ehhhhh have also their twitch channel, you can look there.
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