TITI Twister - Breaking "Thing In The Ice"

[Mystical_Jackass]

I understand, I just don't see the need to put them on a clock if you're gonna' bounce their shit anyways and win inevitably after that for as long as you can protect it. Just seems that not rushing it and adding things like Intuition/Thirst/FoF (instants) to sneak in CA is a smart thing so you don't run outta' gas.

The biggest threat to this deck I see is Abrupt Decay, pretty much any deck that can fit it is gonna' do it if ever this deck becomes a thing. Obviously "dies to removal" is a horrible case, but the difference is that creatures like Tombstalker/Goyf require less "setup" imo, while you can say more vulnerable to gy, those cards you can topdeck and play on turn 6 if you have to and still get value. That's a weak point for TITI, the value goes down considerably the later on you topdeck. In the perfect world lets say you always drop in turn 2-3 and you can always protect it, but that's now it usually plays out irl.

[Captain Hammer]

Black or Black+Green seem to be the strongest colors to splash since this seems ideal in a more grindier slower/controllish deck than traditional delver decks, and discard is amazing with the bounce effect. Black adds so much to the deck

Black
Dark Confidant or possibly Tasigur/Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker
Baleful Strix
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Hymn to Tourach
Reanimate
Liliana

Black+Green
Deathrite Shaman
Tarmogoyf
Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse

[square_two]

The biggest threat to this deck I see is Abrupt Decay, pretty much any deck that can fit it is gonna' do it if ever this deck becomes a thing. Obviously "dies to removal" is a horrible case, but the difference is that creatures like Tombstalker/Goyf require less "setup" imo, while you can say more vulnerable to gy, those cards you can topdeck and play on turn 6 if you have to and still get value. That's a weak point for TITI, the value goes down considerably the later on you topdeck. In the perfect world lets say you always drop in turn 2-3 and you can always protect it, but that's now it usually plays out irl.

I would want to run some number of Misdirection just for Abrupt Decay. Opp plays a threat (say, Goyf) and thinks they are safe thanks to an Abrupt Decay in hand, and you can Misdirect to really punish them for it.

[Poron]

if you really want to be a bitch you can always play Unearth to get back TITI, Delver, DRS, Clique, Snapcaster or to cycle it in case it gets lost.

It also triggers TITI

Should we prefer the control route, Massacre is still very very viable, but I would aggro with 4 Stifle and Daze/Pierce

[klaus]

the difference is that creatures like Tombstalker/Goyf require less "setup"

@Tombstalker: Disagree. xBB (VS. 1U) is not merely a setup aspect, but a burden & having 6 cards in your gy is no given in a world full of DRS.
@Goyf: I see where people come from when comparing those two creatures, but the fact that Goyf is a dumb beater with a tree in its mana cost, while TITI is a f***ing one-sided Evacuate on a (7/8) stick AND blue, makes him a completely different beast.

That's a weak point for TITI, the value goes down considerably the later on you topdeck.

Despite the fact that I do prefer to have my TITI online by turn 4, you seem to be forgetting that chaining cantrips + SCM shenanigans becomes considerably easier the farther we are into a game aka. the more mana sources we have at hand.

[Captain Hammer]

if you really want to be a bitch you can always play Unearth to get back TITI, Delver, DRS, Clique, Snapcaster or to cycle it in case it gets lost.

It also triggers TITI

With all the discard effects black gives you access to, I would prefer Reanimate to Unearth just for the ability to steal your opponents threats and hate on Reanimator decks.

[Mystical_Jackass]

if you really want to be a bitch you can always play Unearth to get back TITI, Delver, DRS, Clique, Snapcaster or to cycle it in case it gets lost.

It also triggers TITI

Should we prefer the control route, Massacre is still very very viable, but I would aggro with 4 Stifle and Daze/Pierce

I'm not sure if Unearth or Reanimate are good ideas, simply 'cause the one stregth TITI would have is avoiding gy hate from DRS, but bringing those cards in your immediately opening yourself up to it again. Yeah, I'd use that as a strength as much as you can, the fewer drawbacks the stronger the deck game 2-3.

I would want to run some number of Misdirection just for Abrupt Decay. Opp plays a threat (say, Goyf) and thinks they are safe thanks to an Abrupt Decay in hand, and you can Misdirect to really punish them for it.

That's probably a good idea with Misdirection, I like that.

@Tombstalker: Disagree. xBB (VS. 1U) is not merely a setup aspect, but a burden & having 6 cards in your gy is no given in a world full of DRS.
@Goyf: I see where people come from when comparing those two creatures, but the fact that Goyf is a dumb beater with a tree in its mana cost, while TITI is a f***ing one-sided Evacuate on a (7/8) stick AND blue, makes him a completely different beast.


Despite the fact that I do prefer to have my TITI online by turn 4, you seem to be forgetting that chaining cantrips + SCM shenanigans becomes considerably easier the farther we are into a game aka. the more mana sources we have at hand.

Fair enough, I see where your coming from. I mean, this is all just speculation at this point... maybe you're overestimating the card, maybe I'm underestimating it. There's a card that only costs that's also a deal breaker for opponent and requires a setup, it's called Goblin Bomb. Now I'm not saying TITI is anywhere near that horrible, sometimes something looks too good to be true but then after playing a few tourneys you find out it actually is. I think a better comparison is Bloodchief Ascension, I'd made a B/R deck around in quite a while back when it came out, had bolts and discards and tried it in a couple tourneys... the games I activated it I absolutely wrecked the opponents, however the other 3/4 of the games didn't go so well lol... I dunno

[Poron]

if you are in a weak situation with graveyard, Unearth will cycle

[Fox]

Played incorrectly (i.e. by itself, as the card reads), this card is [probably] a 3 turns-long summoning sick goyf which has a turn of unblockability and a 7/8 non-trampling body. If this is your wincon, it's kind of inferior to a goyf and even less likely to get 1 or more hits in (jace-1, pyroblast, flickerwisp, etc...).

The real question is what creature/s are you resolving that you want to protect with your own on-board Evacuation effect that swings for 7 if they try to disrupt your intended threats? Is it suicide ETB triggers (dreadnought, evoke critters, echo)? Is it to re-up positive ETB triggers? Is it insurance that lets you play into cards like terminus or supreme verdict?

Don't look too intently at the 7/8, pay more attention to splicing Evacuation onto Brainstorm [or any other instant, moreso than a sorcery] for no extra mana - this is where the real breaking of the card would come from.

As far as an abrupt decay deck facing TITI is concerned, it's more of a Flagbearer than a Horror creature type - one that eats all your decays.

[Chatto]

I'm thinking about trying TITI in something like Mono U Omnitell: sculp your hand, while threatening the board, and assembling your combo. Not sure if it's MB-material or SB-material.

[Cire]

What do we consider the top decks going forward?

I would think: Shardless, Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles.

What would TITI's role be in any of those match ups? I would think it will have to be Aggro against Shardless, Tempo against Lands, Control against Eldrazi and Aggro against Miracles.

What would be the deckbuilding constraints of each of the decks? Our 1 mana cantrips and discard spells will be destroyed by COTV against Eldrazi and Countertop will be brutal regardless against Miracles.

How do we shore up or play to our role against those decks given a "Core" of

4 TITI
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will

Against Lands: Perhaps Wasteland and Stiffle?
Against Eldrazi: some sort of removal against COTV: Abrupt Decay? And wasteland against the manabase?
Against Miracles: Abrupt Decay again seems good to deal with countertop. Don't know what else.
Against Shardless: Like with the Miracles issue we need more Aggro Cards. . .

So including Wasteland and Abrupt Decay which were the overlaps from above we have a BUG deck:


4 TITI
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
20 Other lands

That leaves 12 cards. Those 12 cards should probably be super aggressive if we hope to win against Shardless and Miracles IMO. I am just stuck on what those cards could be.

Maybe Goyf/DRS/[mystery card]
Go 4 colors for Red for Delver/Burn?

[Mystical_Jackass]

What about Snapcaster Mage then? It just seems really good before or after you flip and "evacuation" kinda like what Fox was saying about ETB triggers. Couldn't you do some crazy stuff like flash it into play, counter a spell, flip then bounce it back to your hand?

[LMental]

@Cire - Why would you want to play 24 lands when you also run 12 cantrips? You can get away with 18-20, like RUG Delver.

I think Snapcasters are a must. So much synergy with TITI, and they're just good in general. I also think a 3/1 Daze/Misdirection split could be interesting, perhaps with another Misdirection in the board to fight Abrupt Decay. 1-2 Spellskite in the board could also come in against Decay and do some work; plus, they're horrors. Finally, I think Vendillion Clique is another must in this deck; like SCM, it rocks with TITI and is strong on its own.

I regard the core as:

3-4 TITI
3-4 Snapcaster
1-2 Clique
1-2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3-4 Daze
0-1 Misdirection

Jace seems like a must. It also dodges TITI and... it's Jace.

After that core, I'm not sure exactly where to go. I'm against Counterbalance / Top since it doesn't help flip TITI and makes us into a worse version of Miracles. Stifle, Waste and Bolt could be interesting, turning this deck into a more reactive version of RUG Delver. Alternatively, DRS, Cabal Therapy, and Abrupt Decay could give us more game against combo and just make us grindier in general. Finally, Stoneforge Mystic has strong synergy with TITI and Swords to Plowshares, Jitte and Batterskull have never been bad. It would also be possible to splash more than one color — in short, there are a lot of directions to go with this.

I'm against Young Pyromancer, Delver, and Monastery Mentor because they have anti-synergy with TITI. Play a different deck if you want to play them, I think. We have enough strong options between SCM, Clique, SFM and DRS. We could even play Dark Confidant and Goyf if we felt like it. (But I don't.) Baleful Strix is also a strong option if we splash black.

Also, Phyrexian Revokers out of the board seem good.

[Cire]

@Cire - Why would you want to play 24 lands when you also run 12 cantrips? You can get away with 18-20

I was thinking something along the lines that wasteland's will definitely be saced and the cantrip will be shut off with all the COTV's flying around.

Either way - sure - I think I can run less lands. However i'm still having trouble figuring out what those 12-16 cards should be. I'm off the opinion that they should allow you to play aggro - but I am also having trouble figuring out what that means. Does that mean goyf? Delver? etc. . . I like SFM originally, but I feel that it is too controlling and that against the decks I foresee us playing against, I feel that we won't usually be control.

[Poron]

This deck has a good matchup with Lands, Storm and average meta.

Horrible matchup with Miracle.

Our fattie dies to Blast, Swords and like whatevever else they are casting like chump monk blockers ecc
Our only serious chamce is to play a Cbalance soon

[MaximumC]

If you really want to justify the horrible name you have chosen for this deck, then at least marry it up to an actual Twister or two...

TITI Twister, a.k.a. Steaming Pile of Crap.dec

Win Cons (10)
4 Thing in the Ice (TITI)
3 Storm Entity (Twister)
3 Monestary Mentor

Twister (16)
4 Day's Undoing (Twsiter!)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

Force of Will (4)
4 Force of Will

Mana (12)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

Lands (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Volcanic island
2 Gemstone Caverns

Turn 1, barf out a Mentor or Thing, turn 2 and thereafter, cast all the cards. End with Days Undoing and do it again.

[LMental]

I was thinking something along the lines that wasteland's will definitely be saced and the cantrip will be shut off with all the COTV's flying around.

Either way - sure - I think I can run less lands. However i'm still having trouble figuring out what those 12-16 cards should be. I'm off the opinion that they should allow you to play aggro - but I am also having trouble figuring out what that means. Does that mean goyf? Delver? etc. . . I like SFM originally, but I feel that it is too controlling and that against the decks I foresee us playing against, I feel that we won't usually be control.

I don't think we need to play aggro. I see two directions that we can go with this deck.

1) Tempo. Stifle & Bolt. Yes, we'd be less aggro than Canadian Thresh, but we'd have a more powerful, game ending threat, and flashing back Stifle with SCM would feel amazing. Plus, we could only be 2 colors, allowing for a stable manabase. I like this version a lot; it reminds me of UR Landstill, but stronger. The list I'd play is:

4 TITI
4 SCM
2 Clique

2 Jace
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Gut Shot/Mutagenic Growth

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

SB
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
1 Misdirection
2 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Shattering Spree

Something like that looks strong, if a bit threat-light, to me.


2) (Death)Blade. This version would be slower but very powerful too; I'm just not sure it takes best advantage of TITI. However, I'd start with something like:

3-4 TITI
3-4 SCM
3-4 SFM
1-2 Vendillion Clique
0-4 Deathrite Shaman

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
0-1 SoFaI

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 Gitaxian Probe
4 StP
0-4 Cabal Therapy
0-2 Thoughtseize
0-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3-4 Ponder
1-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
0-1 Vindicate / Council's Judgement

I just wonder what advantages this gives you over traditional Deathblade or normal Blade. It's not like TITI is great with equipments. It just provides another angle - but not a particularly synergistic one.

Re: counterbalance. I understand the need to protect TITI, especially against Miracles. But I don't think Counterbalance is the way to do it. It has no synergy with TITI, makes us a strictly worse Miracles, and still doesn't solve the Abrupt Decay problem. Rather, we should diversify our threats or play a tempo game so that we can attack from a different angle.

[Mystical_Jackass]

@Cire - Why would you want to play 24 lands when you also run 12 cantrips? You can get away with 18-20, like RUG Delver.

I think Snapcasters are a must. So much synergy with TITI, and they're just good in general. I also think a 3/1 Daze/Misdirection split could be interesting, perhaps with another Misdirection in the board to fight Abrupt Decay. 1-2 Spellskite in the board could also come in against Decay and do some work; plus, they're horrors. Finally, I think Vendillion Clique is another must in this deck; like SCM, it rocks with TITI and is strong on its own.

I regard the core as:

3-4 TITI
3-4 Snapcaster
1-2 Clique
1-2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3-4 Daze
0-1 Misdirection

Jace seems like a must. It also dodges TITI and... it's Jace.

After that core, I'm not sure exactly where to go. I'm against Counterbalance / Top since it doesn't help flip TITI and makes us into a worse version of Miracles. Stifle, Waste and Bolt could be interesting, turning this deck into a more reactive version of RUG Delver. Alternatively, DRS, Cabal Therapy, and Abrupt Decay could give us more game against combo and just make us grindier in general. Finally, Stoneforge Mystic has strong synergy with TITI and Swords to Plowshares, Jitte and Batterskull have never been bad. It would also be possible to splash more than one color — in short, there are a lot of directions to go with this.

I'm against Young Pyromancer, Delver, and Monastery Mentor because they have anti-synergy with TITI. Play a different deck if you want to play them, I think. We have enough strong options between SCM, Clique, SFM and DRS. We could even play Dark Confidant and Goyf if we felt like it. (But I don't.) Baleful Strix is also a strong option if we splash black.

Also, Phyrexian Revokers out of the board seem good.

I really like the direction you're going with the list you posted so far, and I really like the white splash idea with Stoneforge Mystic, StP, equipment, too.

What do you think about adding 1x Lightning Greeves then? I feel like it's one of those often overlooked cards, but it seems pretty amazing in this kind of deck, I mean if they can't kill it you're pretty much gonna' go Inkwell Leviathin on their ass. I mean, I'm a big fan of the swords but sometimes less is more ya know.

I also have a rules question, so if TITI becomes flipped does it unequip?

[LMental]

@Mystical_Jackass - Thanks, I'm glad you like it.

Regarding Greaves, I do find it interesting, especially if we play SFM - probably in the board, though, to combat removal, and as a 1-of (and I still think it's strictly inferior to Skite). But it would stay attached when TITI flips, I'm pretty sure.

Still, the reason I regard Skite as superior is because Skite is also a blocker, can hold equipment, and is amazing in certain MUs. Greaves will sometimes just do nothing. (Often, actually.)

Why do you prefer the white splash to the red? Because it has more diverse threats? I'm not opposed to such a splash, and I don't think you're wrong to prefer it, but I also see a lot to like in a version with Stifle, Wasteland and more blue. For one, it'll be more streamlined and focused around TITI. To me, both are worth testing.

EDIT: Ah, read wrong. You like both lists. So we're agreed ;)

EDIT: Sorry, I also got your name wrong! I apparently suck at reading.

[Cire]

I don't think we need to play aggro. I see two directions that we can go with this deck.

I don't mean aggro as in Zoo, but aggro in terms of deck role in particular matchups. Just by the core cards we run we have a good game against Lands and Eldrazi (IMO - draw, counters, wasteland, big threat). Against Shardless and Miracles though I think we have a bad game. What's more - in those games we will not be control and Shardless does tempo better, and tempe doesn't seem good against miracles. So the solution seems to be to get more aggressive to shore up those matchups.