[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Ricardio]

Went 2-2 yesterday with what felt like a suboptimal 60 and some holes in the 15.

Lost to merfolk 0-2 (t1 vial both games)
Game 1: multiple lords into TNN felt bad.
G2: she had t1 vial t2 chalice. I hymn double fow and she has the 3rd to stop the deluge that woulda saved me.
Very lobsided draws overall.

Beat LED Dredge 2-0
DRS and wasteland carried super hard. Huge goyf closed it out fast

Lost to Reanimator 1-2 (played immeasurably slow. if he weren't so new and cordial, I woulda called a judge to speed him up)
I win game 1 fairly easily with DRS and goyf
g2: I have drs and tap it to set up goyf for a clock to kill him in a timely manner. he draws careful study to hit exactly reanimate and griselbrand. I try to race and he draws g source and decay for my second goyf to stop the race. I draw 3 fetches in a row to his 3 spells.
g3: he had everything for what I had. quite insane actually

Beat RG post 2-0
G1: a clinic on ripping your opponents spine out through they anus. I had it all.
G2: goyf into lotv into jtms into concede.

definitely need to make changes in the deck. I may have strayed too far from my initial starting point and made the deck too murky.

[sdematt]

Post your list

[Tom4ik]

I have been finding success in my heavier discard list. I am still on 2 Tnn plus the jitte but have 2-3 hymn and 1 TS main with 2 TS side.

I also moved pierce to the SB as well. I have all 4 fow main.

This is the list from last weeks 4-0. I played this a bit this weekend against stoneblade and it seemed just fine.

4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
3 wasteland
1 creeping tar pit
1 forest
1 swamp

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis
3 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 umezawa's jitte
2 hymn to tourach
1 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 painful truths

2 liliana of the veil
1 jace, the mind sculptor

Sideboard
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 massacre
1 krosan grip
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 pithing needle
1 baleful strix
1 life from the loam

[Ricardio]

I have been finding success in my heavier discard list. I am still on 2 Tnn plus the jitte but have 2-3 hymn and 1 TS main with 2 TS side.

I also moved pierce to the SB as well. I have all 4 fow main.

This is the list from last weeks 4-0. I played this a bit this weekend against stoneblade and it seemed just fine.

4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
3 wasteland
1 creeping tar pit

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis
3 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 umezawa's jitte
2 hymn to tourach
1 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 painful truths

2 liliana of the veil
1 jace, the mind sculptor

Sideboard
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 massacre
1 krosan grip
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 pithing needle
1 baleful strix
1 life from the loam

I ran something similar
22 land
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 tropical island
3 underground sea
4 wasteland
1 creeping tar pit
1 swamp
1 forest
1 island

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis
1 snapcaster mage
1 V Clique

4 brainstorm
3 force of will
3 abrupt decay
1 Deluge
1 Loam
1 maelstrom pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
2 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 ponder

2 liliana of the veil
2 jace, the mind sculptor

Sideboard
2 surgical extraction
2 duress
2 negate
1 null rod
1 golgari charm
1 phyr revoker
1 needle
2 disfigure
1 library
1 (IDK)
1 force

I would definitely make some changes. Basics are in actuality too ambitious for 3. probably better off w 2 or so. 21 lands is probably right.

SB is meh. need to fix the mainboard first

[Tom4ik]

I edited my post. I ran 1 forest 1 swamp. I would like to cut a land for a basic island but idk. 3 basics were definitely annoying in the opening hand. I could see just running another dual and 4th wasteland in those spots as well.

How has clique been for you? I never found her that useful in the bug decks. When you dont run things like CS or more snaps the flash seems less useful and I never thought it was worth the spot. thoughts?

How has the Garruk been for you? Is it just there to spam a 2/2 every turn? If so wouldnt something else be better like BB or smth like that.

[Ricardio]

I edited my post. I ran 1 forest 1 swamp. I would like to cut a land for a basic island but idk. 3 basics were definitely annoying in the opening hand. I could see just running another dual and 4th wasteland in those spots as well.

How has clique been for you? I never found her that useful in the bug decks. When you dont run things like CS or more snaps the flash seems less useful and I never thought it was worth the spot. thoughts?

How has the Garruk been for you? Is it just there to spam a 2/2 every turn? If so wouldnt something else be better like BB or smth like that.

The basics can get obnoxious when you want to cast decay/strix/hymn t2

Clique is an instant speak, evasive threat that can help in sticky situations. Like putting an ugin to the bottom, haha. I play it mainly because it doesn't need the gy like drs or goyf and its blue for FOW count.

Garruk is not meant for the mb. He is certainly great when hes good. I would sugest putting him in the sb. I play him over thrun. One is uncounterable, the other is unterminusable.

I love jtms but 2 mb might be wrong. He is just so damn good, especially with loam.

[sdematt]

I ran:

3 TNN
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

3 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
6

3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
21

8 Fetches
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

2 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam

But found that I should cut a land and add more discard in. I miss not having information.

[Ricardio]

I would like to try unearth. Sounds cheeky. Chain it with snap too.

You guys should try loam main. It's amazing.

[sdematt]

I would like to try unearth. Sounds cheeky. Chain it with snap too.

You guys should try loam main. It's amazing.

Unearth has been pretty good. Usually, there's a lot of exchange over killing TNN's, so bringing it back is a pretty great use of resources. Or, sometimes you just want to a Snapcaster back to get a Decay/Brainstorm. Plus, if it's junk, cycle it.

[Tom4ik]

SdeMatt-
-How have you liked the pierces main? I am on 3 snap so I liked having access to a counterspell but the games with Bug ended up dragging enough that I ended up moving them to the side. I have hymn and TS main basically in place of those from your list.
-I do like Tnn in this deck but with 2 deluge would it be better to be on the goyf plan? No access to jitte in the main and the side? Tnn with jitte is one of the ways this deck can break creature mirrors. Though I do see you are heavy on the pw plan.
-I think I will try a garruk next time I play this. I just couldnt see the benefit of a 4 mana 2/2 spammer but sacing strix or snap to tutor up tnn or another snap does seem fine if he ever flips.
-I see you have 3 truths and 1 library. How has that been? I am on just 2 truths right now and have been considering the library. Truths is the real deal but I do still wonder if it is actually better than just having more jaces.

[Ricardio]

I've been asking myself this a lot lately and I think you all should too:

What separates us from other BUG decks? What makes us better than those builds? What are our weaknesses?

[sdematt]

Wasting cards to set up a derdly 2/2 into a draw 3 seems like a waste of my time, and limits what you can sideboard ( cascade). Id rather just grind with other spells. TNN > Shardless Dirtmonster.

[Tom4ik]

I would say that a BUG deck not based on cascade is much more versatile in what you can play. You might not flood the board as fast but you get to play cards that are not restricted to proactiveness.

[H]

I would say that a BUG deck not based on cascade is much more versatile in what you can play. You might not flood the board as fast but you get to play cards that are not restricted to proactiveness.

Yeah, I used to play BUG Landstill mainly because I wanted to play Counterspell.

It also allows you to sideboard things like Surgical Extraction which would be terrible in Shardless.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I used to play BUG Landstill mainly because I wanted to play Counterspell.

It also allows you to sideboard things like Surgical Extraction which would be terrible in Shardless.

BUG Still? List, please?

[H]

BUG Still? List, please?

I'm on my phone, so you can just find it and the tread here.

Mind you, it was years ago though. In earlier lists I had a Counterspell in place of the Clique.

[Ricardio]

I'm on my phone, so you can just find it and the tread here.

Mind you, it was years ago though. In earlier lists I had a Counterspell in place of the Clique.

that pretty sweet. but man is that list old. would you play lumbering falls now?

[H]

that pretty sweet. but man is that list old. would you play lumbering falls now?

I don't think so, I can recall times were even the 3 for Tar Pit felt steep. You can grind them out of cards with Liliana, then them having a removal spell for Tar Pit is either impossible or very unlikely.

You should post in the thread or message Nastaboi (whose list I was basically running). I don't know if he is still playing the deck, but he was much better with it than I ever was or will be.

[sdematt]

SdeMatt-
-How have you liked the pierces main? I am on 3 snap so I liked having access to a counterspell but the games with Bug ended up dragging enough that I ended up moving them to the side. I have hymn and TS main basically in place of those from your list.

I found them just fine, but they're also there to get the blue count up to about 18 for 3 Forces. But, I agree, since games do go long, they're kind of ass sometimes. I'm also considering cutting them for action, and Thoughtseize/Hymn seem like good choices.

-I do like Tnn in this deck but with 2 deluge would it be better to be on the goyf plan? No access to jitte in the main and the side? Tnn with jitte is one of the ways this deck can break creature mirrors. Though I do see you are heavy on the pw plan.

I'm also running Goyf, if you see. I really like the fact that TNN is an evasive threat that your opponent has to pour resources into removing. Goyf is fat, and a quick clock, so I like running both. The Ooze is a concession to the fact that sometimes, Ooze beats Goyf when left unchecked and allows the ability to handle opposing Deathrites, etc. Having Deluge doesn't mean it's that much of a non-bo - you want a large sweeper in this kind of midrangy deck, and Deluge is the card to do it. If I have to kill a TNN to 5-for-1 them, which does happen, I'm open to that. TNN makes them try to go wide, which is where Deluge comes in handy.

-I think I will try a garruk next time I play this. I just couldnt see the benefit of a 4 mana 2/2 spammer but sacing strix or snap to tutor up tnn or another snap does seem fine if he ever flips.

Garruk is very good. He's excellent against Miracles, and Deathtouch wolves are hard for some decks to beat. Flipping isn't super hard, Deathrite Shamans do run amok in this metagame.

-I see you have 3 truths and 1 library. How has that been? I am on just 2 truths right now and have been considering the library. Truths is the real deal but I do still wonder if it is actually better than just having more jaces.

Very good. I almost want another Truths, but the lifeloss is relevant enough. I play it in Rhinotime and love it to pieces. Sylvan just wins control matches, hands down. I'm running 3 Jaces, so I don't think running 4 is the answer. Splitting with Garruk is safer.

----

Overall, I really like the list, but I'd likely change it to this next time I run it:

3 TNN
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

3 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
4

3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ancestral Visions
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
23

8 Fetches
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

2 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam

What I noticed in playing the Shardless mirror a bunch is that my opponent was just laying out Visions and letting them come off naturally, and saving Brainstorms when it was relevant to actually dig for action. I'm curious to see if this is, in fact, the right call - just playing another draw 3 that slowly comes down. My problem is that I also need to keep the blue count up. At the moment, I'm at 17 with 3 Forces, which is likely just fine. I might cut a Decay and a land for 2 Strixes to up the removal count as well as the blue count, but we'll see. I might also jam 2 Thoughtseize in the board in place of a Needle and a Null Rod, or nug the second Garruk (which replaced Thrun).

[Ricardio]

4 waste and a loam are insane. I'm even playing a gq in the side now tonattack decks like miracles.