I like Meren but I don't think it has the same role as garruk. I understand he can't be cast if teeg is in play but being a planeswalker gives garruk so much more staying power which is why he's so good against miracles while maintaining creatures on board against miracles can be tough.Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Destructive flow looks like sweet tech man.
On dread of Night: do you find that the 1 mana cost makes dread more advantageous over engineered plague despite plague having more play against other decks (thinking elves, infect, grixis delver, ect.)?
Also Noticed no Leyline of the Void. Was that a local meta call?
You are right, Meren is worse in the miracles matchup. But I find I don't need help against miracles, especially post board. I put her in to outgrind GBx Decks and increase threat density. It is hard to compare but I'd say that regrowing a knight even once is a more powerful effect than 1 wolf per turn. I also think that we want our high-impact 1ofs to be virtual 3-4ofs if they are good in a matchup.
There are some D&T games where you don't even get to 3 mana. Last time I played against Imperial taxes he had Thalia, Wingmare, and 2 ports and I needed to get to 7 lands in play to cast my Deluge. On top of that Engineered Plague on Humans is a less powerful effect (Wingmare, Flickerwisp, Mindcensor).
Decks like elves, infect, whateverPyro are generally positive matchups so I'm okay having less tools for those matchups.
The lack of Leyline is partially about the lack of graveyard strategies. 0-1 graveyard decks in the room just doesn't warrant 3 sideboard slots. In recent testing I've also found that I have a reasonable chance against some of the graveyard decks even without any SB cards for it.
What is the general game plan and sideboard strategy against Lands and DnT?
My sb:
1 Garruk, Relentless
2 Choke
1 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic deluge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thalia
1 Golgari charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Do board out chalices against Lands or DnT? A chalice on one locks out aether vials and potentials swords to plowshares to our Knight. But if you are drawing, a first turn vial makes chalice looks pretty dumb
Even if you manage to T1 a chalice, Flickerwisp just resets the chalice to 0. On the draw chalice is almost never good enough. If D&T gets a T1 play, they basically don't need 1drops after that. STP is nice to turn off but there is a heavy price to casting a 2drop non-creature that turns off basically 4 spells.
Bring in Deluge, Thoughtseizes, Charm, and Rec Sage,.
Out 4 Chalice, you can cut 1 mox because they will seek to revoke/flicker it.
Lands has enough 1drops that you want to keep chalices. Leyline of the Void is obviously good, Thalia/Slaughter Games might be good enough. Pfire is an obvious cut. Beyond that Teeg doesn't do anything, lili is meh.
You can also decide not to play all these anti-omni sideboard cards since the deck isn't a thing any more :p
I guess I hadn't thought about how hard most decks fight to keep bob and knight off the table. The creatures are so good, resurrecting them even once seems fantastic. I'll definitely be giving it a test.
On an unrelated note, I played a brew at my local weekly yesterday. A situation came up where I had multiple bobs and a tabernacle. I don't believe there is any way to kill your bobs with the tabernacle to avoid bob's trigger since all of their triggers happen as you enter the upkeep phase; is this correct?
If resurrecting creatures is so good, why not play Volrath's Stronghold?
Looking for some hot SB tech for the eldrazi MU if anyone can chime in.
EDIT: Retribution of the Meek anyone?
Last edited by rlesko; 03-17-2016 at 04:46 PM.
There is a pretty big difference from a (free) regrowth every turn and a 3 mana reclaim.
In terms of hate it is really hard to beat a 3 mana one sided perma-armageddon in the early game.
One is zenith-able, one is found via loam-ing and knight-ing. I see pros and cons to both. Its true it costs 3 mana, but its more permanent than a creature, and if you loam away Meren you can never get it back.
Other tech I can think of is Dueling Grounds - does anyone know if there is a similar effect attached to a green creature?
What I'm trying to say is that they are different effects. Meren is like a large dark confidant while the stronghold does not generate card advantage.
And of course if you are actively loaming it doesn't really matter if you flip over dudes because the gamestates where it is correct you don't mind losing a dude. We've been over that quite a bit.
Ok. Its true that it doesn't generate advantage, however, there are many card advantage engines in this deck, if I really want to recur my creatures the drawback of "missing" a draw step should be far outweighed by getting back my 8/8.
I'm not dismissing the card on the grounds that it can be loamed away, just an observation. I'm also considering going back to adding a one off Tarmogoyf if the eldrazi menace catches on. More zenithable big dudes can't hurt. I have a GPT on saturday and feel like I need to add some spice to push me over the top.
For eldrazi, the best ive been able to do is dismember. Doesnt get locked out by chalice, kills everything in their deck unless they're going rogue, its instant so it can take out TKS before your answer gets taken, and the cost can eventually be met with mana instead of life so its got some flexibility. On deck for testing is drop of honey, we'll see if its worth a slot or two in the side.
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Current Depths List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bg-hexmage-depths/
Dismember is pretty good against them, but so is Go for the Throat. The matchup is pretty good no matter how you slice it, though. I'd probably favor a good GSZ target like Goyf or Hornet Nest if you're concerned.
Hornet nest is great, love how its Zenith-able.
Does anybody have any thoughts about Arlinn Kord? She would compete with Garruk's slot in the board but he might be better at what he does.
Tournament report. Yesterday I played at Tales of Adventure in Coopersburg, PA. I did not take notes, so I will do from what I can from memory and from my chicken scratch life total.
First here is the decklist
Main Deck
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
Some thoughts on card choice. I know thoughtseize is the standard, but it feels weird to bring them in when I keeping in chalice, and hymn can also be good against other decks as well as combo. I have been a huge fan of the dark depths combo since its inception, and I feel at the cost of one dead draw, it gives me the ability to sit back with knight and play defensively. In most cases even when its dealt with (which is rare) I am left with a knight still. Deathrite shaman was useful in exactly one game, but I am likely to remove it.
Anyway, here are the matches.
Round 1 Eldrazi
Game 1 W
He puts out turn 1 chalice off city of traitors and I smile inwardly. I play land and pass he plays eye of ugin and endless one. I waste, mox diamond and bob.
He is too far behind and plays some of the small creatures but I get knight on the field and assemble combo and kill him.
Game 2 L
I play a turn 1 waste hoping that he kept a sketchy hand. I am able to get sylvan library on the board but he had extra mana, and had plenty of threats while I was unable to land knight.
Game 3 L
I probably played this one incorrectly. I am struggling with getting board presence. I bring dismember in specifically for endbringer but had to use it on his thought knot seer in response. I usually believe if we keep him off endbringer then we are set. I stage his wasteland because I have maze of ith in hand. I miscounted life and so untapped and abandoned the initial play to green sun for dryad arbor waste his waste and play maze. Instead I green sun for deathrite, tapping my stage. It ended up not mattering because he had endbringer the following turn.
Overall I still feel this is a favored match up for us, I am just not sold on what to bring in for the board. Obviously we need to side out at least 4 cards with chalice, but teeg is dead as well. Thoughts?
0-1
Match 2 (0-1) Death and Taxes
Game 1 w
He is on the play and goes turn 1 chalice off plains. I consider whether he had a land light hand and decide to abrupt decay it. Following turn he plays sfm for bs, and I follow up with chalice on 1. He misses a third land and I play knight. He end step sfm, but misses his bs trigger (knight is a 5/5, I don't think it really matters). I continue to answer his threats and then assemble combo. He equips a flickerwisp but I abrupt decay it for lethal.
Game 2 w
I play turn 1 bob which he swords endstep. He plays sfm and I respond with lili sac. He plays revoker, I use deluge. He plays the jitte from the sfm. I plus and play knight. He plays 2 serra avenger, I play my second deluge for 3 and he scoops with no hand.
Match 3 (1-1) Miracles
Game 1 w
I get liliana out with scooze. I then play teeg, turning him off everything Im worried about. I eventually lili minus with his mentor in play, he brainstorms (no cards in hand) and I punishing fire in response to prowess trigger. He scoops.
Game 2 w
He is short on lands and is stuck with two for a while, he has counterbalance but no top. I cast lili, top reveals jtms. Next turn he ponders and shuffles. I then +lili, he discards jtms, so I am clear to cast garruk. He cant answer either, and scoops after lili ult. Brought in garruk in board today (without testing) and it did what I wanted it to do. Still happy with it. Getting a miracles player to scoop with a lot of life because of board position is satisfying for a change.
Match 4 (2-1) Reanimator
Game 1 w
I play turn 1 chalice and he in unable to respond. He actually tries to get me to miss a couple times, fetches then plays entomb while shuffling, I assume he was hoping I wouldnt know the cmc? If he had not played it, I would not have necessarily known he was on reanimator. I play knight, he then plays 2 lotus petal and show and tell. I put down deathrite, he puts down griselbrand. I only have maze in the main, but that is enough to have him scoop.
Game 2 w
I get chalice on 1 and make him discard grave titan. He is unable to get the second land, dazing me a couple times (I played into it to keep him off show and tell but did not know he did not have a second island). He is unable to find the cards he needs and is quite anemic the whole game. I don't think of this as a good match, but sometimes chalice is enough.
Match 5 (3-1) Enchantress
Game 1
He opens with oath of nissa, I get turn 1 sylvan library. Next turn he plays wild growth and I get chalice on the field. I end up eating some damage to library, and the extra cards keeps his card draw engine off line. I win with bob and knight.
Game 2
No chalice and I am unable to keep his engine offline. I make a mistake of minus lili into solitary confinement so have to sac my own death rite shaman. He emrakuls me 2 turns later, despite 2 serras sanctum getting wasted.
Game 3
He stabilizes with a high life total but I have a strong board. Lili, thalia, and knight and marit lage and chalice. He elephant grasses with 3 argothian enchantress. Next turn he forgets about thalia so fails to pay elephant grass with the plan of playing solitary confinement, ratchet bomb, then grass. But can only play confinement and bomb, I golgari charm his confinement and swing 20 in the air.
Match 6 (4-1) DnT
We agree to hedge and split reward, 9-16th price going to the loser. He then scoops because he is done playing. We agree to play for fun, and its good to have a laid back match. I don't know if I confuse any of this game with the other match against DnT.
Game 1
I play chalice followed by knight for combo, he has no fliers.
I have full control against him game 2 with punishing fire and lili and he scoops when all his creatures are dead.
Quarterfinals mono red imperial painter
Game 1
He leads off mountain pass, and I dont know what deck he is on. I end up fetching for non basics and he gets a magus of the moon out. I am unable to cast any spells, but he eventually has multiple servants, magus, and painters servant. I am able to get a chalice to keep him off grindstone and a single mox diamond, but my pace is rather anemic. He casts jaya, blows up mox diamond, and then chalice and then combo wins.
Game 2
I get out forest first. He then plays turn 1 grindstone, followed by turn 2 painter. I have dismember, but gamble that he wont be able to play a land, activate combo, and stop dismember. He doesnt have the third land, and exiles spirit guide to activate grindstone which meets a dismember on servant. I essentially timewalked him twice. I am able to get out liliana, and she keeps him on two lands and hellbent, but not before he is able to play blood moon. I eventually ultimate lili, he has 3 lands, top, stone, and blood moon. He draws off top. I separate the piles into land, land, moon, and land, top (after the match he suggests that I should have had 1 land in the moon pile or armageddon him, he is probably right, who goes out of their way to test against imperial painter.) He keeps the moon and two lands. I am unable to actually land any action against him, and am occasionally loaming, but am really waiting to draw mox diamond. I tormads crypt away about 40 cards before I do get the mox, but once I do, I still have the combo remaining in the deck. I play knight, blow up the moon and kill him.
Game 3
Goes similar to game 2, but I start with natural forest and mox so I have more colored mana to work with. I get out chalice on 1, he already has grindstone but it still turns off his counters. I eventually get 2 bobs and lili out. I ultimate lili letting him choose armageddon or moon and grindstone, he chooses moon. I then get chalice on 2 so at no point can he cast servant even if he draws it. My few notes show me getting him down to 2 before he casts bridge, but I could be incorrect. Eventually I ultimate lili again, he has 4 lands, two moons, grindstone, and bridge, with one card in hand. I separate bridge vs rest, and he scoops the big pile into his yard. Then I cast green sun zenith for qasali pridemage and blow up bridge and swing lethal. The judge then asks if thats a flawless victory with no permanents on board. Overall, I played this game incredibly cautiously, and went for eventuality. The chalice on 2 locked out a couple of my answers, and it only left me with 3 abrupt decay and 2 green sun zenith and game winning draws. But, I was happy to keep him off both combo pieces.
semi finals against TES (bryant cook)
Knowing Cook, I know he is on TES.
Game 1
He is on the play, I keep a hand that can do turn 2 teeg, but its not a great hand. My general assumption is this is a bad match up, but to mulligan away a teeg is risky. He mulligans, keeping six. Starts off with therapy naming thoughtseize, commenting on the non gentlemanly nature of teeg. I play land pass. He wins on turn 2, but does not actually know what I am playing (he believes it is a version of maverick).
Game 2
I have a lousy 7 of 3 lily, hymn, and 3 lands. This is the only balanced hand I mulliganed on match but it seemed like it did nothing. I mulligan into 4 lands, scooze, and bob. I dont like it, but am very happy to see scooze and keep. My scry is golgari charm (I dont know how few people are play TES compared to ANT these days, but I do know that he is, and most games go for empty rather than tendrils) so I happily keep it on top. I play land, he plays probe followed by therapy taking bob. That surprises me, I would have assumed scooze would be worse for him. I play scooze, and fade another turn. I drew very well this game. I then played hymn, hitting 2 rituals, followed by ethersworn canonist. He saw a taiga, but had no idea what it was for, and was still unsure what I was playing. I also had a chalice but decided not to play it because he could not beat an answer for canonist and get lethal that turn since he was at 2.
Game 3
I do not have a turn 1 play (third game in a row) but have a hand that can play turn 2 hymn with lili and green sun zenith. His 7 has no lands but 2 chrome mox. He does a couple ponders but eventually I get a board of teeg, and lily. The next turn he does a mini storm to grapeshot teeg for 2 and lili for 2. This leaves him hellbent with essentially near infinite mana on board (2 LED and 2 mox). I follow up with bob, and then another bob. In the next 5 draws (3 from bob, 2 from turn), I dont see any of my hate cards, chalice, abrupt decay (I think I only kept 1 in, really for the rare situations of LED on the board, mox, or something strange), knight, bojuka bog, green sun, canonist, all would have won the game. After the turn with 2 bob triggers, it reveals hymn and lili, and I draw land. The literal worse against a hellbent opponent. He draws brainstorm, and then finds tutor to win it. Bryant played an impressive game, and I so if I have to lose to storm at least it was to a master who had to earn the win.
The one choice I made in game 3 which my brother disagreed with, was playing turn 3 teeg. I could have played turn 3 liliana, followed by turn 4 teeg and bob which would have been more mana efficient but would also have allowed him an extra turn to go off. My brother felt that with him casting ponder should show that I would have been safe enough with a lili discard. What do you guys think?
Overall the tournament was fun, not as many people as anticipated (60) which I am happy about because it means 2 rounds fewer and I get to go home on time for a late dinner.
Glad I wasn't the only 4c loam player in the room yesterday. Congrats on the finish :) Hymn looks much more graceful than thoughtseize, I may be picking up a playset to test. Garruk also won me a game against miracles yesterday; used him to fight a mentor, made a couple dogs, then sacced a dog to find Teeg. Hows the choke been working out for you?
Congrats on the t8! Sorry we never got to play, but it was cool meeting you yesterday.
Thanks, definitely pick up a play set of hymns. Its just very important you decide on one art and make sure they all match. Choke has been great, I don't feel like I always want it against each blue deck, but against miracles and delver once its landed it feels akin to a one sided blood moon. It has its value in grindy games, but I try not to bring it in against combo. Very often they only need to tap their lands once, but it really weakens their cantrips. As a one of, it is also good in most late game situations, as well as keepable in most opening hands.
BTM10, thanks, glad we met and look forward to the next tournament.
Just thinking about the differences:
Garruk can kill something the turn you play him, can stonewall goyfs and gurmags with deathtouch tokens, and can tutor.
Arlinn buffs dudes, can bolt dudes repeatedly, and makes resolving creatures a win condition.
If the aim is to resolve a token generator, garruk may be a better choice. I think its better against BUG decks when deathrite needs to get off the table and the deathtouch tokens stop the bigger beaters.
If the aim is to have a midrange value engine, arlinn may have the edge. I think its better against D&T where I want to apply pressure and kill creatures simultaneously, still good against BUG decks since you can bolt multiple strix if you haven't found Pfire yet.
Both are great against Miracles.
I still haven't decided which one I like better yet, I'll have to see her in action to have a stronger opinion.
@the Hymn Topic: The reason for playing Thoughtseize is that it covers our hands which lacking Mox Diamond, so being able to interact on T1 with our opponent because sometimes a T2 chalice or hatebear is to slow especially OTD.
Hymn is great against combo decks for sure but it has the same problems like Chalice, Teeg, Thalia, Canonist etc...
I dont think it´s a really good replacement for TS.
Currently playingEldrazi
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