How do we beat lands? I lost to it 3x in a tournament on Saturday. Combined 1-6 in games.
Was coming in to say exactly this.Originally Posted by Manipulato
Lands can be tricky. They can certainly come out of the gate with a fast 20/20 or Wastelock, but it's in no way bad. Leyline of course goes a long way and so does an early Chalice, and the other powerhouse is Knight of the Reliquary. Stick Leyline or Knight or an early enough Chalice and you should be in great shape. Hold your fetches until you have something supremely relevant to cast. There's a time and a place to Wasteland aggressively, and bringing a Wastelock to a fight you're not certain you'll win means that you'll most certainly lose. Usually you should just hold your Wastes to prevent the combo. Scavenging Ooze is another great card, but be careful of when you play it. Sometimes it's wise to let a Dryad Arbor and a few Dark Confidants hit the bin before you make your move.
When lands was a huge part of my meta, I tried having just one Thespian's Stage in the maindeck replacing a cycling land and it worked out great as you just tutor it up with Knight and then copy their Dark Depths. Was able to kill multiple lands players with help from their own lands. Thespian's Stage also does a lot of fun things as a one of against different decks as I was able to find different ways to use it.
That being said, I also played Leyline of the Voids against lands but it's just nice to have something unexpected against the opponent.
I placed second yesterday at the Squabbles monthly power tournament. On the line was a mox sapphire. I was playing Kroken's list card for card with a different sideboard:
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
There were 60 – 70 kids and at a $30 entry fee that’s pretty good to try for a mox. Payout was to top 16. There were 3-4 other A.Loams in the room. I will post as much info I have on the games.
Round 1 – U/G Infect (can’t remember players name)
Since I had only been playing the deck for 4 weeks I was curious about this matchup. I can’t find my notes sheet on it, but remember getting it in 2.
Game 1: He had noble hierarch into glistener elf. Both were met by Abrupt decay and punishing fire. I had grove online, a knight came down to clean up the remaining blighted agents.
Out: 1 Karakas, 1 Teeg, 1 Ooze, 1 Loam
In: 1 Maelstrom, 1 Garruk, 2 Deluge
Game 2: Turn 1 COTV on 1. Cleaned up his first turn 1 drop and then went through the motions to cleanup.
1-0
Round 2 – Jack playing U/G Infect
No longer being curious about the matchup I felt good. That is until game 1 where he had the nuts.
Game 1: He plays turn one probe to glistener elf. I play turn 1 ooze. He attacks, I block, invigorate, berserk, berserk. Yep 18 infect well that was fun
SB: same as RD 1
Game 2: I have a turn 1 COTV after he mulled to 6. That’s all she wrote.
Game 3: He mulls to 6 and keeps a loose hand as his turn 1 is a Dryad Arbor. I smell land light and waste his arbor. He no longer has land drops until turn 4 so needless to say he can’t recover.
2-0
Round 3 – Ian on D&T
I believe I win the die roll (I should start marking that down on my sheet)
Game 1: I have a turn 1 COTV followed up with a punishing fire Grove combo and he scoops by turn 3.
In: 1 Garruk, 1 Maelstrom, 2 deluge, 1 revoker
Out: 4 CoTV, 1 Teeg
Game 2: He starts off with Mom into a SFM getting SOFaI. I believe I had a turn 2 Knight and got a Marat Laige token to seal the game.
3-0
Round 4 – Anuraag playing Miracles
I have played this matchup several times and really enjoy it as I feel we are heavily favored. Anurrag is good at playing Miracles so this will be quite a showdown. We exchange pleasantries about me watching his stream on twitch and him putting a face to a name. Feels like a casual match.
Game 1: The game is wrapped up pretty quickly and I can’t seem to get anything going which is odd. He ends up beating me 3x angel tokens dropping me from 15 to 3 on turn 6.
In: 2 Thalia, 1 Choke, 1 Garruk, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Revoker
Out: 1 Karakas, 1 Maze, 2 Mox, 1 P.Fire, 1 ooze
Game 2: I get a turn 1 COTV on 1. We joke about him already having the wear//tear. I get bob online for some turns and then knight seals things up
Game 3: This match went pretty long. I used punishing fire a lot to keep him off Bob’s attacking me and Jace’s dropping. I make a huge play mistake and tap my wasteland when I have Arbor out and it dies to STP. He ends up making 4 angels at some point and thinks he has me until I decay one, try to p.fire the second only to hit a force. I untap and punish that one during my turn. He swings in for 8 dropping me to 11. I untap punish another one and I go to 7 from the attack and take out the last. I then made a Laige token for the win.
4 – 0
So now I’m 4 – 0 feeling great about the deck checking to see what I may have to face next round and then double draw to top 8. I find out we are only doing 6 rounds instead of 7 which makes me really happy as I can just double draw now or at least I thought so.
Round 5 – Hateful Miracles (main deck 2x blood moon, 1x wear//tear)
The standings get posted and I see I will get paired down to a 3-0-1. Obviously he doesn’t want to draw. Which is fine because even with a loss I should be able to draw in the last round.
Game 1: I can’t get anything down as I don’t see any Decay’s until real late. I have lots of 2cc cards in hand and am slowly grinding at his life with double p.fire, although he is only on 4 lands his CB is making good work of the p.fires. I am having to wait until just before he draws to cast it, then after he tops to get his draw cast it again. The game goes for about 20 minutes like this until he finds a blood moon. Blood Moon?! Maindeck?! Miracles?! I know they come in from the SB, but really?! Apparently it won some MTGO challenge 5- 0 and has been doing quite well. Eventually he casts another one and I am still reluctant to find a Decay. I had been loaming on and off too. I finally decay on moon, but he has either snap or an angel to attack me with and I can’t get the other moon off in time to kill the attacker. So with 30 mins down I jokingly say, “It’s funny because I’m going to win game 2 and this will end up being a draw.”
SB: Same as Round 4
Game 2: I believe I get an early COTV on 1 and a sylvan library going. I know I finished him with a DD/TS. Just as I said would happen. When I asked about time the judge said it had just been called. So a draw.
4-0-1
Round 6
Toughest round yet ID with Steven playing Lands
I end up coming in 4th seed for top 8 with the worst breakers of the other 4 – 0 – 2s
I vocally say I’m not going to split so there is no need to cast ballets.
I know my matchup will be against Rudy playing Lands so I’m not worried about wasting another hour to double my winnings.
Quarterfinals – Rudy B. playing Lands
Since I’m the higher seed I get to go first
Game 1: I take an early lead with Dark C. I have Lili and some wastes. I end up missing an attack and a Lili activation. It doesn’t matter as I ultimate Lili and reset him back to 2 lands. He never recovers and I take the game.
In: 3 Leyline, 1 Maelstrom – not sure if this is correct here
Out: 3 P. Fire, 1 Teeg
Game 2: I believe he mulls to five. I have an explosive start of Leyline and COTV on 1, Then I get a knight. DD/TS – Game 2 me.
He’s pretty salty at losing the match and my game 1 play mistakes and still winning the game, but for some reason he thought the matchup to be better in favor of lands…no
I know my next matchup will be against Grixis and never having faced a delver deck I like my odds with COTV. I decide I am ok with a split of 450 in credit so I decide to cast my ballet for that. Everyone is in for split except David Long – sigh. Ok let’s go. This makes me a little mad as I was ready to get back home to the family.
Semifinals – Louis playing Grixis Delver.
This one is cleaned up in two and you can catch it on the stream at https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/55659341
Starting at ~ 8 min mark
In: 2 Thalia, 1 Choke – someone told me should be deluge and not Thalia???
Out: 1 Karakas, 1 Teeg, 1 Lliliana
The finals
Here is where the Cinderella story comes to a close. Because David Long did not split and made me stay longer I decide not to split the finals. 2nd still gets 450 in store credit or 2 U. Seas so what the hey.
I am the higher seed so I get to play first. The match can be seen here
https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/55659341
It starts ~ 53 min mark.
SB: see quarterfinals
The only thing that may have cost me the match was in game 1, with an active knight not wasting his taiga. I forgot he runs Decays in his build and my line with maze was attack and still activate knight. It didn’t help that I had no loam to sure up the match right there.
In game 3 I had everything except a waste. The hand was great. When I shuffled to find my land on turn 3 I saw all 3 wastes together. Just needed to get one in the grave for loam and that game would have also been over.
After playing the deck for 4 weeks I am still very happy with it. I don’t think I would change anything in the side yet as I don’t have enough testing under my belt.
I have a question on strategy in a hypothetical situation:
G1 on the draw, and opponent opens up with fetch into underground into deathrite. Your hand has mox, chalice, 3 lands, bob, and decay. After playing out land and mox for your first turn do you:
A) pass the turn, keep abrupt decay up, deploy bob on T2 with enough mana to pay for daze
B) pass the turn, keep abrupt decay up, deploy chalice on T2 with enough mana to pay for daze
C) Cast Bob T1, challenge daze
D) Cast Chalice T1, challenge daze
The reason I ask is because I find myself losing to BUG delver more than i'd care to admit and I get the feeling I may be playing the matchup wrong. Anyone got any tips?
E - none of the above. I snap cast abrupt main phase. Then pass. Then into COTV. Then cast bob.
No wonder I've been doing so poorly in this matchup, the option was never part of my thought process. That's interesting. So it's not correct to hold up decay for goyf (my original logic for not firing the Decay off immediately)?
I care waaaay less about goyf than I do deathrite. I'd snap off decay on the deathrite before he untaps and then worry about any goyfs if/when they show up. You have plenty of cards that can deal with either threat but letting them get ahead with deathrite seems really bad when you can just kill it.
I concur with immediately killing deathrite. That guy is a huge thorn in our side- eats loams / punishing fires and removes lands from our GY. Kill on sight!
I posted earlier about the lands MU-
Most of the time I could not even make it to 3 mana, often facing down many wastelands and ports. I am running 2 basics in my list and a thespian, i'll definitely keep an eye out for copying opponents DD though I don't think that came up in any of my matches.
I was boarding in something like +3 Leyline, +1 rec sage, +1 maelstrom pulse, +1 golgari charm for -1 Gaddock Teeg, -2 Liliana for -2 P Fire (leaving 1 in for opposing Bobs), -1 dismember (only playing 3 decay main, the dismember is a concession to eldrazi which I'm considering making a Maelstrom pulse instead). Was never able to land any early chalices after mulliganing aggressively. I wish I remember all my keeps against them to evaluate better.
I even considered bringing in thoughtseize to keep their fast starts at bay. Just felt like every game I was facing down multiple explorations / manabonds and wastelands and ports...= never casting anything.
If you have P Fire instead of Decay do you take the same line?
Yes, I would. If they end up dazing it, it will put them back 2 turns, 1 for land drop and one to remove the p.fire from the yard. It's very advantageous to slow a tempo deck down by 2 turns. They could force it and not lose a turn, but then they are forcing a p.fire which I'm really fine with and then having to waste another turn to remove it with deathrite. It forces them to choose a play which may not be the correct one. If they don't develop their board state and put you under a clock they will be dead before long. Also, countering the p.fire whether daze or force allows you to hopefully cast CoTV unmolested.
Agreed.
Does anyone have any tips on playing against Infect? I'm getting tired of losing to this deck and there seem to be multiple ones in my meta. Fairly standard main and this has been my board:
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia
1 Rec Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
I'm actually tempted to take out the E. Plague for a Melira.
Chalice is obviously strong against Infect, but beyond that game 1 on the draw can be rough. I don't like Choke in the current meta, and I do like Kolaghan's Command-it's good against Infect, but it's good against a bunch of other stuff too.
I'd make the following changes to your board:
-1 Choke
-1 Plague (I assume you have an MD Deluge)
+1 Kolaghan's Command
+1 Maze of Ith or Thoughtseize
And then against Infect do something like:
-3 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Kolaghan's Command
+1 Maze of Ith or Thoughtseize
I would try something completely different. Board out almost all the cards with only green mana symbols.
-1Loam
-2 Green Sun
-2 Library
-1 Ooze
-1 Teeg
and bring in:
2 Thalia
2 Thoughtseize
1 Deluge
1 Charm
1 Plague
There's an argument for cutting Ooze over a Liliana, and you're right that Teeg is just bad in the matchup (this is what I get for giving advice without having the deck in front of me), but I have no idea why you would cut Library or Loam. Wasteland is fantastic against them since their best threat is a land, and the normal damage plan relies on a lot of other things going wrong for them or you getting way too aggressive with Sylvan. Plague seems pretty bad against them, though Toxic Deluge and Golgari Charm are good against some of their faster starts. Thalia doesn't do enough.
My last 2 mini tournament report things included playing against infect. The motivation for cutting Loam and Library is that the matchup is 100% about tempo. If you get to stabilize you can just chalice/pfire/waste them out of the game and not losing becomes infinitely easier. So while I board somewhat differently, I believe that is what these cuts are about. Plague is good fir the same reason removal is good. They only have 12 "creatures" and they need them to win the game. Turning off 4 creatures is pretty good.
Thalia is sweet against this deck. It beats the elf in combat, forcing them to tap out for a pump spell first and get blown out. She also doubles the cost of 16+ of their cards which slows them down a ton. And of course she also exacerbates the effect that wasteland has on their strained and fragile mana base.
Actually playing against the infect is a bit of a separate skill in the way that playing against Dredge or D&T is, so it is worth it to actively test the matchup. Tempo is super important, so look to keep hands that are either super powerful (chalice) or have a T1 play. Don't fear the T2 kill. You often have a choice to put your shields down for 1 turn and lock them or play defensively, and early on it is better to do the former. Having blockers like Bob or Scooze to buy time and trade with their pump spells is also fine, as their most aggressive draws involve the elf.
Edit: What I'm trying to say is that Library is kinda durdly, as is Loam in the early game. Tho the Zeniths are extra T1 plays so I'd never cut those.
Last edited by apocolyps6; 03-27-2016 at 03:24 AM.
i could see cutting 1 liliana but not more than that. It's very easy to lock them out of the game with her. Thalia is also a house against them as in conjunction with wasteland their spells quickly become uncastable.
In any match up where I don't need to find my green sun targets I cut the green suns and Gaddock teeg. Scooze can probably be cut vs infect as your life total is basically irrelevant and they don't use their GY aside become immense. Sometimes I shave a utility land such as a karakas in a MU where there are no legendary creatures on their end and where I have no interest in protecting mine.
Thoughtseize is nice to increase turn 1 interaction. golgari charm is great if they lead off with a mana dork and then a guy, easy 2 for 1 and tempo steal (deluge for Same reasons), also they cannot save with unkicked vines.
All in all, I find this MU very favorable for loam as they lose to waste lock, p fire lock, and liliana lock. it can be scary to face since they have a turn 2 kill multiple ways but mulligan aggressively to early interaction and you should be fine.
Played a small tournament, but managed to go 0-2 in matches against an Eldrazi player, who also throttled other aggro loam players at the tournament. Got manhandled in my matches.
Matchup seems a bit rough and heavily reliant on getting one or more large Knights out quickly through Thoughtknot disruption, and game 2 avoiding the Leyline draws. I almost think we need straight Devastating Dreams sweepers or simple Go for the Throat spells in the board. Maybe 1x Goyf main to make a fast fat body? Their 14+ sol lands means our wastelands are overloaded so hitting a single Ancient Tomb is followed up by an additional City plus Thought knot, and their 4/4 and 5/5s swinging on turn 3 don't give Loam a lot of time to wastelock.
Yeah, it's not a good match up. I don't think a few extra board cards will help it too much either.
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