I put together one of your recent lists in paper for playtesting with some friends. The highlight of the day (for me) was one game where I effectively had six Mazes up and a Tabernacle out and my friend just couldn't build up a Mentor Monk army large enough to crack me for more than one or two damage per turn. He was visibly distressed every time I topdecked a Glimmerpost and undid his last three turns' effort with my land drop.Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
It took a while to convince myself it was okay to cut Primeval Titan, which remains my second-favorite creature in Magic, but so far I've been really enjoying your Colorless Green and I'm looking forward to playing with it more. I haven't made it out to many local tournaments lately and haven't yet seen much of the Eldrazi that my friends insist is heavy in our meta, but hopefully I'll be able to some across some neat technology for the matchup. Looking forward to hearing more about how you're handling it going forward.
Last edited by thelastbeast; 03-21-2016 at 01:31 AM.
Went 3-2-1 yesterday with the trinket list (more or less the same as last time). not much to tell, except that the infect match-up is still very bad... i bought a play-set of ancient tombs and will be trying out rock lees latest list in the future.
Rock have you made any changes to the list recently ?
I tried an Ugin-less /w Repeal+Trickbind & no Emap list and got rolled by Moggcatcher /w 8 moons (only 3 ways to remove moon in this build), and elves (3 close games, all grindy, all where ugin being its normal substitute cards would've won me the game).
My current list is more centered on Trinket mage + kit, Ugin, repeal, Warping Wail. Similar to my old roots. I think I'm liking Elephant Grass over moment's peace, and still convinced the only good cards vs infect are Warping Wail, Pithing Needle, Crop rotate, and submerge.
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M10] Forest (1)
1 [TSP] Vesuva
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OGW] Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
List still highly variable. Could include Ancient Tombs, Emperions, and go other directions. Build is very adaptable atm.
I've played against Pox three times, twice with the combo and once without. Stage/Depths was instrumental in winning one match, and would have been so in the last match if I had kept it in (the remaining one was effectively won by Sacred Ground). I'll explain in the abstract why I think the combo has merit, with the caveats of a small sample size and possibly having had the element of surprise:
The key is assembling the combo at the right time. Discard doesn't ensure that you can't tutor the combo, only constrains that you should try not to have pieces in hand on the Pox player's main phase. Between Map (which I usually play T1 and leave until needed or forced by Abrupt Decay), Top, and Crop Rotation this is not terribly difficult. And it doesn't matter how many lands I set myself back if the reward is winning the game after combo EOT. Again, the risk is minimal provided that timing works out and you have the cards. Granted, neither of these is guaranteed but if you don't draw Needles (or Sacred Grounds in my build) then what chance do you really have anyway? You should assume that you have some protection for your lands, in which case the combo allows you to win with only lands, tutors, and some finesse.
Contrast the combo with attempting Primeval Titan, the only other "cheap" threat in mono-green. Again assuming that you can protect your lands, you need at least four lands and likely more if the opponent has diligently attacked your Cloudposts. Assuming that PT has not been discarded (to make a fair comparison with the Maps/Rotations), it does not win the game on the spot and isn't even guaranteed to do so the next turn, even ignoring the possibility of edict effects. Marit Lage wins instantly. Accounting for edicts, PT becomes even worse as its effect might simply be "get two lands, expand the range of castable topdecks as long as those lands live" which is far from winning. Marit Lage may not be ideal and does require some maneuvering, but I think it's better than the alternatives.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
Very good points and fair argument. I'm still not sure how viable the depths stage plan is, but you certainly raise very good points for it. I will have to test a bit to see it in action.
I got a list fairly similar to yours but i need to update it because I didn't play it for at list six months (before the new eldrazis came out).
Warping wail is an obvious addition, but I wonder if Karn and oblvion stone are better than Ugin and all is dust right now because they hit coloress permanents while the latter don't do anything to eldrazis.
I'm not playing very much magic recently, so I may be wrong: what do you think?
Ignorance is strength
I'm not a fan of Karn in this deck. He's too expensive for spot removal that you can only use at most every other turn.
Eldrazi makes Oblivion Stone more attractive, but I think it's vastly inferior to Ugin in most matchups. It's 8 to crack immediately, so on par with Ugin there. Ugin, however represents a permanent threat that can win the game on his own, as well as multi-use removal for the stuff they play after you wipe the board.
If Oblivion Stone was to replace anything, it would be Dust, which probably comes down to a judgment call based on the expected meta. Oblivion Stone is infinitely better vs Eldrazi. It's also better vs Blood Moon decks, as you can split the cost over two turns. I think Dust, however, is better in a vacuum. It's cheaper, and much more consistently able to wipe the board on T3 (especially since it can use Eye as a mana source). It's also entirely one-sided. Most notably, Dust keeps your Pithing Needles intact, keeping your Posts safe from Wasteland.
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Ugin is undoubtly stronger that Karn and effectively I "feel" that I want him maindeck even with some eldrazis in the room. However, I think that right now Oblivion Stone is slightly better than all is dust because it dispose of Chalice ov the Void too, which is very relevant given the high count of CC1 spells in the deck.
Ignorance is strength
A week or two ago I came across a pretty unusual list while I was streaming. It was sort of a mash-up between classic 12-Post strategies and the Eldrazi Stompy lists that are picking up steam. I won the match but I liked the list enough that I wrote it down in the hopes of trying it later. This week, I figured I might as well go for it, changed the existing list slightly and ran with it, winning my weekly. I don't remember the name of the opponent, so if you were that opponent I played against on Cockatrice, feel free to post here and I'll give you credit.
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Trinisphere
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Oblivion Sower
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 All is Dust
SIDEBOARD
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Matchups were Imperial Taxes (2-1), LED Dredge (2-0), Mono-green 12-Post (2-1), and Shardless BUG (2-1). I had one win against Dredge and one against Post on mulligans to 4.
Overall, the deck was a huge surprise and a lot of fun to play. Maindeck Relics fight Deathrite Shaman very well and give you an outside shot of beating fast combo since Crop Rotation is no longer an option. Relic also plays really nice with Oblivion Sower. Talk about a pleasant surprise; I was really impressed with Sower. Against Imperial Taxes I ripped a Wasteland and a Karakas, and the second game I got rid of most of his answers. Past that, it's a big enough body that pretty much no Legacy-playable creature will ever kill it in combat without deathtouch or a few friends. Eldrazi Temple just felt unfair: being able to cast Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2 and Oblivion Sower on turn 3 is absolutely nuts and can cause the game to spiral out of control very quickly. Kozinext actually makes more sense in this build than his older brother: this deck is a slave to its topdecks, but other than lands it tends to play out its hand extremely quickly. Because of this, being able to restock and protect what you do have is more useful than recursion and a guaranteed four cards. There is a little flexibility in the main: Endbringer is good, but not fantastic, and there are definitely arguments for the fourth Sower or even an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to give you more value off grabbing fetchlands and the like. As this deck is entirely colorless, Karn actually makes a lot of sense as a form of spot removal, and with a slightly higher creature density he's a little easier to protect. This deck can also comfortably run Chalice of the Void, which can cause headaches for a lot of decks; including more traditional Post builds. I could see adding a fourth to the board and cutting the fourth Wurmcoil or something.
All in all, I definitely plan on playing a list like this again to see where it can go.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Greetings! On Saturday, I had a top 4 finish out of 45 at our local Arizona Legacy series tournament. I feel that I could have probably made the finals had I not made a foolish mistake during my last match, but otherwise my play was great over the course of the day. It's been a while since I've contributed anything to this thread, but I usually keep up-to-date with reading all of it. I notice that there's a lot of newer users in this thread from when I last posted often. For those of you who don't know, I have been piloting 12Post almost exclusively for over three years and managed to win an SCG Legacy open in San Diego in early 2013 with the build (wow, time really flies as you get older). I always run the blue-green build because I think that Show and Tell is just completely bonkers with Primeval Titan, and fits seamlessly with the strategy as a whole. Counterspells and Brainstorm are additional good reasons, but ultimately I include blue in order to cheat fatties into play.
I always strive to make the most all-around, versatile build to handle any situation. Obviously, the cards that are most effective will change over a long course of time, but I generally try to include cards that have broad applications rather than those that pinpoint one aspect of an opposing deck or strategy.
This is the list that I brought:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
2 Trickbind
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Moment's Peace
2 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
The italicized entries are the cards that I would most consider my flex spots. I used to have two Repeals in the place of the two Trickbinds, but after hearing that the rules for converted mana costs of flipped cards were changing, I began looking for a replacement. My favorite use of Repeal was to have a one mana answer to Insectile Aberration, but soon this won't be the case. I suppose that Repeal is still a good inclusion, but I was ready to test some other cards in their spot. I wanted the replacements for Repeal to be blue, since Force of Wills in the sideboard are a part of my wide-range, versatility philosophy. So I tried Trickbind for the first time today. And I must say, the card impressed me on all levels! I know a lot of users already know this (I tend to be late to the party on card inclusions), but split second is one of the most powerful mechanics in Legacy. Knowing that a card you are playing cannot be countered is one of the most reassuring feelings to have in a game. There's almost nothing else in Magic that provides this kind of certainty (besides Cavern of Souls ensuring a Prime Time hits the board, which we also get to take advantage of!). And Trickbind provided me with some game winning plays at several points during the tournament. I definitely look forward to playing Trickbind again, maybe with an increased number of copies.
Engineered Explosives did not take as big of a hit to our deck as Repeal did, in my opinion. Now, we have the option of setting it to one in order to hit flipped Delvers at the same time as Deathrites and Mongooses. Plus, it can handle multiple Blood Moon effects once you find your basic Island and Forest. The sideboard Moment's Peaces are mostly a concession to the Eldrazi Stompy decks that I feared would be in full force. Getting around Chalice at one was one of the reasons I chose the fog effect over Elephant Grass. It also seems less taxing on our own mana than the grass cumulative upkeep, and carries over against a wider range of opponents.
Here's a brief report of the tournament, while much of it is still fairly fresh in my mind:
Round 1 - Punishing Jund
It's hard for me to remember much of this match, although neither of the games were particularly close. At least one of the games involved me Show and Telling in a Prime Time. There was also a Crop Rotation in response to a Wasteland activation. It's truly a luxury when your opponent is not running blue and the cards you cast are guaranteed to work (besides them having a red blast for Show and Tell).
IN: +2 Moment's Peace, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
OUT: -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Expedition Map, -1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1-0-0
Round 2 - Infect
This has always been one of the most difficult matchups for me. Game 1, we both mulliganed to five and he was able to get me to seven poison counters. I had a Pithing Needle out naming Wasteland, then to my surprise, a Show and Tell resolved. A Primeval Titan got me a Glacial Chasm to hide behind, then over the course of a few turns I was able to navigate up to a hardcast Emrakul.
IN: +4 Force of Will, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Moment's Peace, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
OUT: -2 Cloudpost, -1 Glimmerpost, -1 Vesuva, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, -3 Expedition Map, -1 Pithing Needle, -1 Candelabra of Tawnos
Game 2 I got stuck on two lands and he beat me fairly easily. Game 3 was a real nail biter though, where I thought I was dead at several instances. He bashed me with an exalted Glistener Elf up to six poison, then at some point my Tabernacle convinced him to give up his Noble Hierarch. Moment's Peace played an important role in this matchup (remember you can cast it during their upkeep, to decrease their chances of drawing a counter for it). I was able to counter two Become Immense that would have otherwise killed me. And of course there was a Glacial Chasm protecting me for several turns until I was able to win. Having a Trickbind in hand in case of him using a Wasteland on Chasm was extremely reassuring, even better than having a Needle in play at times.
2-0-0
Round 3 - Sneak and Show
This match contained my best moment yet with Trickbind. When he opened with a Volcanic Island into Preordain, I figured it was either Sneak and Show (so-so for me), ANT (very bad) or Omniscience (the worst). After a few turns, I saw no black mana so I ruled out any storm build. Then later in the game (I want to say turn 5 or 6 or so), I went on offense with a ton of gumption. My board had two Tropical Islands and three Cloudposts. In my hand, I had at least Show and Tell, Primeval Titan, Glimmerpost and Trickbind. I cast Show and Tell, and unsurprisingly, he didn't counter it. I put in Primeval Titan, he put in Griselbrand. With the Titan trigger, I fetched up an Eye of Ugin and a Glimmerpost (putting me at 24 life). He drew 14 cards off of Griselbrand. Here, the Trickbind provided me an out to whatever he could throw at me. As long as I did not lose any permanents, I could still survive 22 damage from Emrakul and Griselbrand, swing with Titan the following turn, play my Glimmerpost in hand, then search for, cast and replay my own Emarkul infinite times with Karakas. I planned to Trickbind the annihilator trigger from an Emrakul to guarantee my permanents. However, on his turn, he cast a Sneak Attack and I simply Trickbinded that instead (he had no extra mana to activate twice without passing priority). The Trickbind allowed me to fearlessly Show and Tell into another Show and Tell deck. It gave me quite the rush.
IN: +4 Force of Will, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Phyrexian Revoker
OUT: -2 Cloudpost, -1 Eye of Ugin, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, -3 Crop Rotation, -1 Show and Tell, -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Game 2, a different split second card was the superstar: Krosan Grip. Fearful of Blood Moon, I made sure to play two fetchlands before any other land. Sure enough, he dropped a Blood Moon on his third turn. Later on one of his turns, when I had my basic Forest, Island and a Tropical Island (now a Mountain) out, he played Show and Tell. I put in Primeval Titan, he put in Sneak Attack. With my Titan trigger on the stack, he made the mistake of passing priority, so I was able to grip away the Sneak Attack before he could activate it. Then that one Titan was enough to win me the game.
3-0-0
Round 4 - Mono White Eldrazi Stompy
He was one of the better players at the local Arizona tournaments, and I had seen from sitting next to him that he was on some sort of Eldrazi Stompy build, but I was unsure of a lot of the details. Game 1, he got a Chalice one 1 pretty early and then got a Thought-Knot Seer and Eldrazi Displacer to beat me down. My one hope was to Show and Tell in a Kozilek (much worse to put in than a Titan in this game, since he was running some Karakas in the deck), but in response to my Show and Tell, he displaced his own TKS to remove the Kozilek from my hand.
IN: +2 Moment's Peace, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
OUT: -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Expedition Map, -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Game 2 was an epic affair that went back and forth for a long while. We each got a Revoker out early (his naming Map, mine naming Displacer). My Tabernacle in hand that I played immediately after his first creature went a long way this game in tying up his mana, as well as forcing him to keep tapping Ancient Tomb and doing 18 damage to himself over the course of the game. In response to my Show and Tell, he flashed in a Containment Priest and I had nothing of worth to put into play. He eventually got out the amazing combo of Containment Priest and Eldrazi Displacer and ended up removing two Primeval Titans and Ulamog. My Moment's Peace surprised him and bought me two important turns. Finally, after some Glacial Chasm defense, I was able to cast Emrakul with my Karakas untapped and him without enough mana to blink Emrakul twice.
By Game 3, I suspected that he did not have Wasteland at all in his deck (which turned out to be true), so I kept a pure ramping hand with two Cloudposts and a Vesuva for each of the first three turns. By my fourth turn I had Emrakul in hand, so I rotated away a Forest in order to get a fourth Cloudpost and just cast Emrakul the following turn.
4-0-0
Only one other person and myself were 4-0, so I was able to I.D. into the top 8.
4-0-2
Top 8 - WB Eldrazi Stompy
Like the previous Eldrazi Stompy deck I faced, his deck eschewed Wastelands in favor of Containment Priest/Eldrazi Displacer shenanigans. His start was slow, with just an Eldrazi Mimic and a Revoker, and a Chalice on one came later than turn two. I was able to win fairly easily.
IN: +2 Moment's Peace, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
OUT: -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Expedition Map, -1 Candelabra of Tawnos, -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Game 2, I was able to cast a Show and Tell on the third turn when he didn't have a Priest out and was completely tapped out. He had forgotten that I ran Show and Tell, and Primeval Titan won the game quickly once again.
Top 4 - Shardless BUG
I had played against him on Shardless in several other tournaments before, and all of our games were usually long, grinding battles. This one would be no different. Lots of back and forth ensued, with me having to deal with Liliana, Hymn to Tourach and some Wastelands backed by Deathrites and Goyf beats. At one point, when I was about to stabilize, I was at 2 life and had a Pithing Needle out naming Deathrite Shaman. On his board, he had two Deathrites and a Tarmogoyf. I had ten mana and had both Kozilek and Ulamog in hand. I played Ulamog and removed his two Deathrites, thinking that I can block the Goyf but am dead to him drawing a Liliana. If I had removed the Goyf and one Deathrite, I would have died to an Abrupt Decay. All this would have been good logic, if I hadn't overlooked that he had a Creeping Tar Pit out. D'oh. He swung with it next turn and won the game. If I had been paying closer attention to his lands, I definitely would have chosen to exile the Tar Pit and the Goyf. Then I would still be dead to Decay or Liliana, but otherwise I could block one Deathrite and go down to 1 life. Kozilek the following turn could probably draw into more Glimmerposts or something else nice. Definitely the punt of the tournament for me, and very tilting. In the future, I will always pay more attention to my opponent's lands in these situations.
IN: +1 Moment's Peace, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
OUT: -3 Expedition Map, -1 Candelabra of Tawnos
Game 2 went much better for me. Despite him getting a Liliana out to make me sacrifice a Primeval Titan, later in the game I get really luck when we are both topdecking. One turn I drew another Primeval Titan, then the following turn I drew an Ugin to make him scoop.
Game 3 was another grindy game. He started out missing a second land drop and was Brainstorming each of the first few turns digging for more lands. My turn two Phyrexian Revoker named Liliana of the Veil. As we all know, BUG is one of the most difficult color combinations for us to deal with. In addition to the discard and countermagic, they have Wasteland and the even more dangerous Liliana, which can take over the game if left unchecked. I missed having a fourth Pithing Needle in my sideboard, which I like to include for this match above all else. One of my strategies against BUG builds is to overload on targets for their Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse targets, specifically with needle effects to shut off their most powerful answers. In this particular game, he eventually found more land, removed my Revoker, and used Liliana to great advantage. He also landed a Null Rod and later his own Pithing Needle, naming Eye of Ugin. Not sideboarding in Krosan Grip was one of my mistakes here, although I'm not certain what to side out for them. He eventually ulted Liliana and gave me the choice between three Cloudposts or four color-producing lands. I opted for the Cloudposts, hoping to topdeck a colorless giant. This game, I wasn't lucky and he was able to kill me before I could draw something useful.
In conclusion, the build felt strong and well-suited for anything that could be thrown at me. In order to support the sideboard Force of Wills, my build requires all 18 blue cards in the 75 to be in the deck at the same time. However, almost all of those blue cards I would want in against most combo decks anyway, with the only exception being keeping Show and Tells in against Show and Tell decks. It is well worth playing the Forces though, as I feel fairly strong against combo decks in general compared to other 12Post builds. Trickbind maindeck is a game-changer for some combo matchups as well.
I blame my top 4 loss on foolishly overlooking a Creeping Tar Pit, a mistake I will not make again. I was hoping/expecting to encounter some of the new Eldrazi Stompy decks, since I haven't played against it yet and I think my Show and Tells give me a trump card for the matchup. There were two Eldrazi Stompy decks in the whole field and I played against both of them, although neither were running Wastelands, so take my wins with a grain of salt. I am obviously biased because of the greedy manabase our deck runs, but I feel like the colorless Eldrazi builds with Wasteland are much better.
Great writeup and congrats! It's awesome to hear from you again as well! And hey, better late than never to the Trickbind party :)
Infect is always super dangerous because they don't care about a lot of our traditional answers unless you happen to be running Elephant Grass; this sometimes leaves you in awkward situations where you have to do something like copy a Inkmoth Nexus with Vesuva. Moment's Peace does seem helpful here, however. Once again, congrats! :)
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Thank you sir. It's good to see that familiar old pilots like yourself are still developing this strategy. Now I understand why you were all so impressed with Trickbind. I look to the experienced players on this board for innovation, then very slowly assimilate ideas into my slow-changing, traditional game (usually to my detriment for waiting so long). It's crazy that I didn't used to run Cavern of Souls...
Yeah, Infect's blisteringly fast speed is what makes the deck so scary. It must be nice for builds like theBoozeCube list to have Maze of Iths as another hurdle for the deck. I would not trust Elephant Grass against that deck. The usefulness of Moment's Peace in this matchup (as well as Elves) was one of the reasons for my inclusion of card.
This list intrigues me because of the three Cavern of Souls. The card's uncounterable clause has got me brainstorming some outlandish ideas (not just 12Post/Turbo Eldrazi), something like a creature-based combo deck. Our deck can abuse it like few others. Since your list is able to make Titans uncounterable so well, do you find that opponents will then save their counters for the Ugins that follow? I play only one Cavern of Souls that I do search for often, but for the most part I brute force my threats through opposing countermagic. Usually after I break through the wall of counters, any Ugins, Kozileks, Ulamogs or game-winning Map or Crop will resolve pretty easily. With your list, I think I would want to chose more creature threats instead of Ugins, to give your entire set of win conditions uncounterability. Even though Kozilek and Ulamog are effective when countered, keeping the huge body in play is another problem that the opponent must answer. Plus, since you are playing Thought-Knot Seer, you may already have a Cavern set to Eldrazi in play.
Sort of. I mean, a lot of times they just aren't anticipating a turn 2 four-drop, so you can sneak them in with ease. If I had a choice between a turn 2 Thought-Knot, or a turn 3 Thought-Knot that's potentially protected, I found I'd generally rather play it on turn 2 to dare them to have an answer for it. Usually, I can follow up with another monster or a Trinisphere the following turn whether the Seer resolves or not. It's a different approach, but since you don't really have anything to do on your opponent's turn, the deck plays in a much more straightforward fashion, and I believe it will reward aggression more often than not.
As for the actual split on threats, the original list I played against ran 3 Karns and 3 Ugins. I love Ugin's inevitability, but between Eye and Temple, this is a list where All is Dust absolutely makes sense: especially when there's no Krosan Grip to bail you out of a Blood Moon effect. I still maintain that Karn makes sense here for his pinpoint removal ability, but it's possible Ugin should go entirely. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what I'd put in his place. It's possible the correct number of Nulamogs is more than one. Today there were matches where tutoring for Kozinext made more sense. I like some of the other new Eldrazi, but a lot of them require a color to cast and I don't want to risk having to either add a color or lean that heavily on Cavern to cast them. Endbringer is sort of in the same situation: it fills a decent spot on the curve, and it has good abilities that feel a little better than Staff of Nin, but it's by no means great. Maybe some number of Reality Smasher makes more sense. Maybe Steel Hellkite. I'm not sure yet.
EDIT: Derp. Sorry.
Last edited by Zotmaster; 03-23-2016 at 08:16 AM.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Am I sensing that tabernacle is seeing more play lately? Unfortunately I don’t have it. I guess there isn’t a real replacement for it out there?
@into_play
Awesome report! Thanks for that and congrats on your finish. I’ve been running a fairly similar list to yours, with the exception of trinket mage and – tabernacle. I’ve also cut trickbinds lately, because I found them a bit bulky, although I’ve missed it in several match-ups. I’ll probably give trickbind another chance.
A couple of thoughts / questions for you:
• I never thought of boarding out cloudposts (especially not 2x), since you were successful I guess this isn’t the worst strategy out there. What’s your reasoning behind this decision?
• What are your thoughts on the new kozilek, could it replace the old one in your build? I’ve been trying to include it in my builds, but still can’t decide on a good 2cmc to pitch, but I guess trickbind, revoker and moment’s peace could do the job? you could get more value of playing 4x SnT, since it is a better target than the old one?
• With 4 SnT would it be more prudent to include plat empirion rather than ugin MB?
• Isn’t 3x vesuva too much? I mean wouldn’t you rather have a second cavern of souls in there? Fixes your titan mana and provides the reassuring feeling you were talking about…
• Isn’t your blue count a bit low for force? I’m counting 10 U cards main. I’ve been trying to have at least 12 U MB cards. But as you said the only real problem is Sneak and show (- SnT). But in the end I guess it wouldn’t hurt to go up on trickbind…
• This is where trinket does its job in my build. Since you are running EE and a single candle, wouldn’t it be prudent to include a trinket?
@Rock
Thanks for that list! It won me several matches yesterday (online).
Here’s a couple of questions / thoughts 4 u 2:
• Isn’t 3x ugin overdoing it somewhat? Wouldn’t you rather run another eldrazi like into_play mentioned?
• Nice kit for trinket! Never thought of going for a single moxD. What’s your reasoning behind it? Though I can see how it mana fixed me several times yesterday, discarding a karakas and opening G 4 titan. Oh and trinket fetching relic really shined against shardless yesterday (he had 2x DRS + tarmo out), forcing a force out of my opponent opening the door for ugin.
• Don’t you miss a second, third copy of pithing needle somewhere?
• I guess EE is unnecessary with 3 ugins MB? Though what I really liked about EE + trinket is not being forced to board in Kgrip against the eldrazi menace (since chalice is usually the only target for Kgrip and by turn 3 it’s usually too late 4 grip to make a change anyways). I had several games where not only did I blow up their chalice, I got their endless ones as well, giving me enough time to win. Winning game 1 is always very nice. Having MB answer to chalice has become a high priority for me, since it usually defeats me g1.
• Isn’t grass a bit of a risk, since chalice on 1 is what you expect from decks you would board it in against?
Exciting times for our deck gents. Makes me think about this quote from full metal jacket:
Crazy Earl: These are great days we're living, bros. We are jolly green giants, walking the Earth with guns. These people we wasted here today are the finest human beings we will ever know. After we rotate back to the world, we're gonna miss not having anyone around that's worth shooting.
It's all good. Your list interests me for many more reasons besides the three Caverns. It sort of reminds me of the colorless Japanese lists that you can find on tcdecks, but with disruption and more of a focus on beats. It's funny that you discovered such a deck, since at the last tournament I went to I discussed adding the 12post manabase to Eldrazi Stompy with one of the Eldrazi pilots. He dismissed it as being unnecessary and would prefer it being faster and lower to the ground, but I thought there could be merit to the idea. I think I might give something close to that list a try. I really want to increase to 4 Ancient Tombs and squeeze in Chalices, but the Pithing Needles and other artifacts are probably just too important.
Thank you! I've always considered Tabernacle to be a staple of the deck by virtue of being a land in a deck filled with ways of searching out lands. Against decks like Dredge or builds with Young Pyromancer, the card can cause serious disruption to their plans. Against other aggro decks, it just buys you valuable time. The popularity of Eldrazi decks makes me more happy to include it.
In the combo matchups where I need to board out a ton of maindeck cards to make room for all of the counters and other sideboard cards, I am forced to pick make difficult cuts from the core of the deck's strategy. The priority in the combo matchups is not to ramp, but simply survive and be able to stop their combos from the start. I never play Cloudposts early and instead deploy blue source lands. Then I never tap out until I am sure that I can hold up additional mana for counters, or the counters in my hand will carry me the rest of the way. Most combo matchups will end with a titan or even Revoker beating the opponent to death, so the Cloudposts are not all that important. Prioritize stopping their combo, then the inevitable nature of our deck will take care of the rest.• I never thought of boarding out cloudposts (especially not 2x), since you were successful I guess this isn’t the worst strategy out there. What’s your reasoning behind this decision?
BTW, I keep in Vesuvas over Cloudposts in some combo matchups because they have other applications. For example, they can copy basic lands against Blood Moons in Sneak and Show, or can copy and effectively reset a Glacial Chasm against Infect or Elves.
I suppose the new Kozilek could replace old Kozilek in my build, but as was mentioned in previous discussions about the two Kozileks, annihilator is no joke and against many decks one swing from Kozilek is essentially game over. I prefer the threat of the old one eating away the opponent's board to the new one's possibility of countering their spells. Also, since Kozilek will usually be a late game play or rarely a drop in from Show and Tell (since Primeval Titan and Emrakul are usually better choices), I would not alter the cards in your deck too much for the purpose of pitching to the new one (i.e. including two mana cards solely for the casting cost that you really wouldn't want otherwise).• What are your thoughts on the new kozilek, could it replace the old one in your build? I’ve been trying to include it in my builds, but still can’t decide on a good 2cmc to pitch, but I guess trickbind, revoker and moment’s peace could do the job? you could get more value of playing 4x SnT, since it is a better target than the old one?
I have actually been thinking of replacing the Ugin with another big creature. Platinum Emperion is a little fragile for my tastes, but maybe it would be the right choice. I would also consider adding a second Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, since the card is just so effective when cast. While not a great Show and Tell drop, the fact that it can be put in with a Show and Tell would make it better in that sense than Ugin.• With 4 SnT would it be more prudent to include plat empirion rather than ugin MB?
I know my opinion is not shared by many here, but I still like having as many Vesuvas as I can possibly fit in. I still see the deck as mostly a ramp deck, and being able to build on the Cloudpost base is the most important part of the core strategy of our deck. The one Cavern is fine; I am usually able to pretty easily fetch it up when I want to guarantee that my Primeval Titan will resolve.• Isn’t 3x vesuva too much? I mean wouldn’t you rather have a second cavern of souls in there? Fixes your titan mana and provides the reassuring feeling you were talking about…
I haven't had any issues with having enough blue cards when I add 8 sideboard cards to the 10 maindeck ones. I remember an old discussion in the general section of this forum that was talking about the minimum number of blue cards to support Force of Will, and I think people came to the conclusion that 16 was enough. Perhaps that number has changed, but nonetheless my 18 is still sufficient for me.• Isn’t your blue count a bit low for force? I’m counting 10 U cards main. I’ve been trying to have at least 12 U MB cards. But as you said the only real problem is Sneak and show (- SnT). But in the end I guess it wouldn’t hurt to go up on trickbind…
I have never liked Trinket Mage in this deck. I feel it is too clunky and I don't like spending the 3 mana to cast it, which often happens early and requires you to tap out. I think the four Brainstorm and SDT give the deck good enough selection to find pieces that you need. With Candelabra probably being the least necessary card in the deck, I never prioritize finding it but can be happy to see it towards the end of games. I see it just as a card that can help me out if I happen to draw into it. All that being said, if you have success with Trinket Mage, then don't let me talk you out of playing it. It's ultimately a matter of personal preference and a testament to the variation in how this deck can be built.• This is where trinket does its job in my build. Since you are running EE and a single candle, wouldn’t it be prudent to include a trinket?
Thanks for your thoughts into_play, much obliged.
I'll consider your SB tactic when boarding against combo in the future.
i agree that plat is fragile, but it did make the storm player scoop twice in a row at my last tournament.
the old kozilek usually eats a removal spell and rarely attacks. but the new one easily protects itself and attacks the next turn. This has come up several times in my online testing. Though I'm still running the old one, when attending a live tournament.
In my experience trinket has single-handedly won me several matches. Namely fetching extra needles for Liliana or EE for removal. Im very excited about the new kit Rock lee is proposing and am actively testing it.
has anyone seen this bad boy?:
http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/t...ogmonster.html
could it work with crucible of worlds or something?
what about zis?
http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/alteredego.html
it can't be countered ... that's always nice right?
Too expensive, makes you wasteland yourself and splashing black would not be for this. I love the card, probably going to build an EDH deck around him, but he has absolutely no place even in discussion. Oracle of Muldaya is far better for us.
It's a pretty do nothing card though, if you've already got a Prime Time on the field you're probably winning or in good position already. If he survives to let you cast this on him you're definitely in a solid position. Copying an Eldrazi does literally nothing. And nobody else is really playing creatures that we would want to copy that make any sense - Sneak and Show is the only scenario, and a) we already had Clone effects available and b) You'd rather run Venser to bounce it anyways.
So nope, neither of these cards are playable, IMO.
yeah agreed. the new set has yet to provide a solid card for us.
Not gonna lie. I'm kind of excited for the giant frog guy. I doubt he'll be great, but I certainly plan to at least give him the benefit of the doubt if he ends up in the bulk bin
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