[Deck] Grixis Tempo

[mkmeade]

This should probably go in a Grixis Control thread or something: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ontrol-Thieves

Lack of Delvers and Dazes means it isn't really a tempo deck.

Thank you very much, new to the site and did not see this thread!!!

[Agrippa91]

Thanks for your Feedback. My thoughts:
Reanimator: The call about Strix, Probes and Wasteland sounds right and I will consider leaving in Dazes again, although I don't think they are powerful enough if you don't play stifle. If he is just patient and doesn't go for the T1-T2 reanimation it's most likely dead.
Miracles: Force, Daze and Probe argumentation also seems right but I cannot agree with Wastelands 100%. I definately had games with t1 delver and t2 Wasteland where they just had duals in their hand but I see that it is not optimal and I will think about cutting some in that match-up. Lavamancer is no longer in my board but flash creatures are a valid argument (I always thought, why would I cut a DRS and bring in Lavamancer to do 2 damage...). Are you sure that Grudge isn't too narrow?
Burn: I had success keeping my Wastelands up to destroy my own lands with threats on board which made their prices basically dead. You should definately not underestimate that option. Regarding Bridge: I was sure that he had it and would bring it. Why do you bring in Darkblast? Just for Lavamancer?
Shardless: Boarding out all Probes also seems fine. Is it good to board Therapy against them at all? If I'd run 2 md Therapy would I keep them or board them out?

Thanks again for your thoughts, it will definately help to improve.

Reanimator: Once you've established an active deathrite it's really hard for them to win, Daze is meant as an early way to deny their combo which still pitches to FoW afterwards.

Miracles: I wouldn't bring in Lavamancer instead of DRS propably, you want as many creatures as possible. On the other side you also really don't want them to resolve counterbalance because afterwards pretty much all your cards are dead.
The thing with Ancient Grudge is that it deals with the combo that locks you out of the game

I wouldn't have recommended cutting probes had I remembered that you have therapy in the main. I really don't have good experience with that (which is the reason I have it in the sb against stoneforge, miracles and combo) and would recommend siding therapy outbefore probes.

One thing I can't understand from Noah's list is how he deals with a resolved counterbalance with no decays in board.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I just cast Painful Truths when I tried it out too often and still lost the game.

[magical-yata]

Has anybody had any success with Life from the Loam in the sideboard? I'm considering adding it, but only 1 true green source seems a bit suspect to me. Although, it's almost never exposed to wasteland unless it's naturally drawn early.

[Agrippa91]

Has anybody had any success with Life from the Loam in the sideboard? I'm considering adding it, but only 1 true green source seems a bit suspect to me. Although, it's almost never exposed to wasteland unless it's naturally drawn early.

What deck would you want it against? Against Delver decks you pretty much don't have the time since they can just tempo you out, against lands there's better sideboard cards against their wasteland lock in invasive surgery now.

[cherson]

I know we hate expensive cards but....

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/j...ofsecrets.html

[Whitefaces]

I know we hate expensive cards but....

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/j...ofsecrets.html

Seriously?

Waaay too expensive and doesn't do much for our gameplan.

[cherson]

Forget abt it. Not quite sure what came into my mind

[Delvis]

Forget abt it. Not quite sure what came into my mind

LOL, I was gonna say, why even bother with this Jace when you can play JTMS??

[cherson]

LOL, I was gonna say, why even bother with this Jace when you can play JTMS??

Completely right. When I saw him again I was like wtf

[Delvis]

The full spoiler is up, what do you guys think?

The first thing I see is:


Dual Shot
R
Instant
Dual Shot deals 1 damage to each of up to two target creatures.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/sh...6883-dual-shot

The similarities to Forked Bolt are immediately apparent. Key differences: it can't hit players, it can't hit a single target for 2, but it IS an Instant, which seems very, very relevant. We play Forked Bolt to kill creatures, yes? Its best mode is killing two creatures. This card does that mode much better, at the cost of some of the other, suboptimal modes.

My initial reaction is that it should be tested, but I'm not sure if it's going to outperform Forked Bolt.

What do you all think?

[say no to scurvy]

I think it's more apt to compare to electrickery, which is hardly used any more since UR delver is no longer the menace it once was.

[Star|Scream]

Can't kill deathrite or a flipped delver. The creatures we want to ping for 1 are creatures we are happy to kill in our own main phase before they untap, except pyromancer and maybe some elves creatures.

[Delvis]

Can't kill deathrite or a flipped delver. The creatures we want to ping for 1 are creatures we are happy to kill in our own main phase before they untap, except pyromancer and maybe some elves creatures.

This is my primary concern with it: it doesn't kill x/2s, and there are some very good x/2s.

But I think you're underestimating instant speed. Mom basically blanks Forked Bolt, but Dual Shot opens up combat tricks to clean up Moms. Flickerwisp also creates issues, as does Elves' bounce creatures (which could still counter this with a bounce, however, with Dual Shot you could kill two bounce creatures on their end step after they've already activated them during their own turn). Instant speed allows us to sequence plays to dodge these types of effects.

[Agrippa91]

Since this card's only application is against decks that play creatures with 1 toughness I think we all agree that this is a sideboard card.
That said I think I really favor electrickery. The 1 extra really isn't that much, but generally the potential 1 extra mana is really relevant, even to hit creatures that you can not kill but then finish off with a bolt or in combat.

Forked Bolt's strength lies in the fact that you can mainboard it since it hits players as well as DRS, SFM and other important targets. I can see this seeing play in UR Delver sideboards, but not in Grixis, at least I would never play it.

[Jaytron]

Agrippa, what are your sb thoughts with the cabal list that Noah runs? I'm thinking of taking the stock list to a 3k tomorrow. I'd imagine that Eldrazi is still pretty big. I feel like bolts need to come out in that matchup. Also, I'm unsure what to do vs miracles, having no decays in the 75. Any thoughts?

[Agrippa91]

Oof, I always feel weird when boarding with other people's sideboards because you don't know what cards are for which matchups. People just have different opinions on what's the best way against which matchups, also some playstyles value FoWs rather high to push through damage before the opponent can stabilize, some try to go toe-to-toe with the opponent and play a more aggressive midrange-version.

Personally I don't board out the bolts vs. Eldrazi, but the stifles and as many probes as I can to bring in creature- and artifact-destruction. It works really well.
Bolts can kill right about everything vs. Eldrazi with the help of some tokens. It also really slows down their quick starts and puts the tempo game in your favor by bolting the face.
The equivalent would be to bring in
1x ancient grudge
2x baleful strix
1x dismember
1x engineered explosives (endbringer, chalice)
1x grim lavamancer
I would bring out the 4 probes and 2 therapies, your Dazes are even great on the draw, stopping a turn 2 trinisphere or thought-knot-seer and reality smashers.
I don't know about Painful Truths. 1 Might be better than a Forked Bolt.


Against Miracles I heard Noah say he likes the Baleful Strixes because they're just an efficient threat they have to deal with at some point, I find that weird though from a deck that "at some point" just gets locked out of the game via counterbalance. People generally bring out dazes, some bolts and some wastelands and bring in all the therapies and other efficient goodstuff.

Again I would really recommend running a sideboard you put together yourself or at least put work into, only that way you can use your cards to their full potential. You want to have 60-card decks against every major legacy deck in your 75.

[magical-yata]

Something that I've never been 100% about is what to do when you're on the play against a random opponent and your hand consists of

2 Fetches
1 Delver
1 Deathrite Shaman

My instinct is that you're better off leading with Deathrite as it leads to better tempo plays with Daze/Wasteland, but you are potentially sacrificing a much quicker clock by not running Delver out first. Are there any rules about when to lead Delver vs Deathrite?

[Jaytron]

Something that I've never been 100% about is what to do when you're on the play against a random opponent and your hand consists of

2 Fetches
1 Delver
1 Deathrite Shaman

My instinct is that you're better off leading with Deathrite as it leads to better tempo plays with Daze/Wasteland, but you are potentially sacrificing a much quicker clock by not running Delver out first. Are there any rules about when to lead Delver vs Deathrite?

T1, I almost always go DRS first. I think the only time I wouldn't is if I mulligan'd, scry'd, and saw the next card was going to flip the delver (assuming I have a non-fetchland)

EDIT: I was looking around lists on mtgtop8, has anyone seen this list from Mune Kento? http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11945&d=268384&f=LE

Decays/Stifles main. I'm not sure how I feel about all the 3 ofs instead 4 ofs.

[Delvis]

Something that I've never been 100% about is what to do when you're on the play against a random opponent and your hand consists of

2 Fetches
1 Delver
1 Deathrite Shaman

My instinct is that you're better off leading with Deathrite as it leads to better tempo plays with Daze/Wasteland, but you are potentially sacrificing a much quicker clock by not running Delver out first. Are there any rules about when to lead Delver vs Deathrite?

Lead with Deathrite. The tempo you're losing can be relevant but you can also pick up a lot more tempo by following Deathrite with more mana-intensive plays, mostly involving Young Pyromancer. There's also a number of matchups where Deathrite significantly disrupts their game plan (e.g. Lands, Reanimator) and you want to have it active ASAP.

This deck isn't really about speed so much as it is about disrupting your opponent and complementing that disruption with a significant clock. There are some matchups where speed matters, but losing one turn with Delver isn't usually a game-breaker.

[Ltj999]

This deck isn't really about speed so much as it is about disrupting your opponent and complementing that disruption with a significant clock. There are some matchups where speed matters, but losing one turn with Delver isn't usually a game-breaker.

Exactly right. I think for a while this "RUG Delver" mindset was leading to losses for me. This deck can grind pretty darn hard, hence finding some more utility with the MD cabal therapy.