Nope, I think it can be reasonable, depending on how many (and how good cards) your board consists off.Originally Posted by Dissection
Sometime you can snare (I guess you play that, due to velocity Predict list) an tutor and luckily take that. It's not unreasonable, at all, I think.
I think Jace depends if they are on Order or Chaos elves (NO or No NO Kappa) elves. Against Chaos elves, I would rather rip jace than have him post board; same with EtA.
What do you board versus Elves, since you can afford to board out StP? If they are on Teeg, which more and more elves players are, at least the two I play against locally, terminus is just not good enough. At least, terminus is pretty bad when you are staring down a teeg. You can often set up with EoT sword teeg and Drawstep terminus.
What's your current list?
I bring in Surgical vs Storm usually anyway, I was more talking about Elves and any other combo that are SBing in three of four decays for CB. I've convinced myself it's pretty foolish now, was just thinking out loud.
Good point about differentiating between Chaos and NO Elves. I've just played vs NO elves with this list. So far I've seen very, very few NO lists play Teeg, though I'll keep it in mind more. I didn't have a Wear//Tear MD until recently and played 3 Predict. I want the third Predict back but am not sure what to cut really, possibly a Spell Snare but it's really important for CotV these days.
I SB vs NO Elves as follows.
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Spell Snare
+2 Izzet Staticaster
+2 Wear//Tear
+2 Flusterstorm
Against Chaos Elves I would keep at least a couple of StP in for Teeg, you're right on that. Maybe this is all incorrect, but my thinking was to Terminus the board asap, land a Mentor then Force/Counterspell anything fetching a Craterhoof while Mentor overpowers the board. That's how the games have played out so far.
Current list is below. It's not lost at my LGS so far, but results just from a LGS need to be taken with a grain of salt obviously.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Wear//Tear
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
SB:
2 Blood Moon
1 Wear//Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Cavern of Souls
I still don't understand how Jace can interact with the board. Bouncing an elf doesn't feel impactful at all. When you tap 4 Mana to play Jace, that seems like a good time for elf player to jam a Choke. Jace can serve only about 2 purposes: float via CB to stop a Natural Order, or Jace-storm to put Terminus back onto the library. At least EtA can make tokens to block, I rather draw a counter instead of Jace in this MU.
I wonder what's the point of anticipating whether it's chaos elves or regular elves. Unless you see a strange elf, there is no way of knowing if the elf player intends to hide his build.
Jace is the follow up play post Terminus, just as Mentor is too for other builds. You're not going to jam Jace T4 every time either, if you have top/cb established you work towards finding another CB to be safe from one decay, set up the top of the deck then Jace can take over. It's not ideal, but if you are short of other win cons it's necessary. Better than EtA at least imo which is dead until later in the game. At that point it doesn't matter what you use to win.
Teeg is MD from Chaos Elves, so you're likely to see it G1. So you'll keep StP in.
Yea I definitely board wrong for the MU (I really should take out ETA and put in Mentors if only in a defensive role). I think it's more me just psyching myself out because this Elves player is a fucking great Elves player and I get away from the fundamentals.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Going by your lists a few pages back, this is what I'd be looking at for SBing against NO Elves.
This is +8 -7, I'm not quite sure if there is another cut from the MD, or if one of these SB cards shouldn't come in really. Moat could be the weakest of these.
+2 Wear//Tear - Null Rod, Needle, Choke and Library.
+2 Flusterstorm - NO and GSZ.
+2 Mentor - Swap for Jace.
+1 Containment Priest - Obvious.
+1 Moat - Seems great, but quiet slow. Tapping out leaves you open to Rec Sage unless you have FoW backup, and you've probably had to use it on a NO already by T4.
-1 Clique - Not bad in the matchup, but the cards you're bringing in are better.
-1 Pierce - Fluster is better. It may not catch their SB hate, but Wear//Tear covers them and Fluster is live after a big Glimpse turn or can catch a NO off Cradle sometimes.
-2 Jace - Mentor is a more efficient win con.
-2 Entreat - Too slow and clunky.
-1 CJ - See above.
In my experience, and hearing from the Elves player, if I can get even just 2 Brainstorms out of Jace, I can really pull ahead since it can find me STPs as well as Terminuses.
I agree Moat is the weakest card to bring in, since they do have DRS which goes under it, and Ruric Thar which means I need exactly Karakas if I don't want my PTEs/Terminuses to kill me. I actually did resolve a Moat in G3 but he had DRS and after I landed Moat he played Ruric Thar and I was at 12, then I Terminused, took 6, and he bounced DRS with Symbiote but not before activating it once to put me to 4, then his turn he played DRS again + another Symbiote and I didn't have double STP.
The guy also said Flusterstorm doesn't work too effectively since he's not going to be chaining spells together via Glimpse (he sides all of them out) in post-board games, so if he's just casting NO or GSZ for his turn, he can make more than enough mana to pay for Flusters. Pierce is also pretty lousy in the MU for this reason, but I'd rather be able to hit an early Pithing Needle on Top (he did this G3 and it really, really hurt) or Sylvan Library, neither of which Flusterstorm hits.
Taking all that into account, would this board plan work:
+2 Wear/Tear
+2 Mentor
+1 Priest
+1maybe Moat (since if I'm planning on protecting this, then ETA or Jace will have to be my wincon)
-1 ETA
-1 Jace
-1 Clique
-1 CJ
-1 Ponder?
-1maybe Counterspell
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Let me tell you a secret most elves players discover eventually with regards to the miracle matchup: you can't win through the classical way. You simply just get smacked into the dirt from terminus which Is terrible for them. Hence why they board out ALL their order versus us. Also why they board out some number of Cradle. Their best card is, unsurprising, symbiote.
Chaos elves isnt a particularly favored matchup. They play teen they play karakas, they play cavern of souls and they are all grind and no combo kill.
I would never, ever, ever board out swords. One of their best cards against you is actually, how crazy as it might sound, dryad Arbor.
I only play 1 izzet SC however, which might make up for the 4th one. Against chaos and any decent elves pilot, fluster is actually pretty bad. They don't commit to anything and their gsz is likely going to find either part of their combo: symbiote or visionary. They are a grindy midrange deck consisting of decay, duress effects and small green dudes after board.
Sendt fra min LG-D802 med Tapatalk
Okay? Aside from basically reiterating what I said about Flusterstorm being bad in the MU and giving an example of how Symbiote is fucking annoying, how does this add to the discussion about board plans?
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Imho, 1 Wear / Tear is enough for that MU. Every hatepiece they find / play makes them slower, which favors you. And seeing that you actually only want to kill Choke, one should be enough. Mentor I don't like as it is only stalling the board. As wincondition, EoT Entreat is far more effectiv. Moat is good. Yes they do have DRS and Reclamation Sage. But Moat will stall the board. So if it's in your sideboard, put it in. Priest is also ok I guess. Even better with Moat as they now have to find their Sage without GSZ.
So I'd board in 1 Wear / Tear, 1 Priest, 1 Moat and board out 1 land (2 if you're on 22), 1 CJ and 1 Clique. Counterspell you want to keep as it's a hardcounter for Choke.
While it's not that good a matchup anymore, I don't see why there's so much panic in here. Control their keyspells, then sweep the board with Terminus. Additional help from Staticaster (highly recommended for every sideboard btw) or Explosives / Pyroclasm makes the MU postboard pretty good. Just see that you don't get choked out in a bad spot ;)
Your opponent sides out glimpses? That's a first for me though... That card is bonkers versus you, as it will likely draw you enough gas to keep going after a terminus. I've found that they don't try to win with glimpse in the same fashion as order elves tries to - it's just not to end up empty handed after a terminus.
I would personally keep in Judgement. Some times you need more than 2 removal spells for their needle, chokes and libraries.
How many of you have played against chaos elves? It's not even comparable to regular elves.
*Pyroclasm and explosives are actually better than terminus as what is killed stay dead
Just checking in real quick, will add more detail later, but...
Dragonslayer_90 and I both spiked top 8 in the first GPT for Columbus that we had last night. Field was relatively small, but extremely competitive.
We both played 74/75 of the same cards, with him playing the sideboard I provided for him, but myself opting for a slightly different sideboard card, hedging in one direction over another.
We both ended up losing in the top 8 by getting mised in unfavorable matchups, he got boseiju'd by OmniTell and I got t2 killed with Force backup by infect game 1 and game 3 (I won game 2 with the help of the aforementioned sideboard card difference =P)
I'll be doing a more detailed write up of the list that we played later on today, still struggling in the morning to speak and think coherently =P (I just poured orange juice in my girlfriend and I's morning coffee, if that gives you any indication of how I'm doing =P)
Some quick notes: I did a ton of background research for what I expected at this event and made a snap metacall that resulted in our lists, with heavy help from Exallium, another Miracles source member, in a very key sideboard contribution. I strong believe that the lists that we played were the best decks in the event, bar none, and we got kinda mised in the top 8, which I'm willing to accept as still a resounding success.
I ended in the number 1 seed, undefeated, and Dragonslayer was second seed, with only a single draw in his case, otherwise also undefeated.
Alright, I'll stop teasing, here's the list!
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Predict
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster (Dragonslayer had second surgical in this slot instead, which I think is actually more correct, but I didn't anticipate much in the way of lands at this field, and it proved to pay off significantly)
Will be happy to answer questions later on today, plus a more detailed report.
Thanks for the insight, both of you. The next time I get a chance I'll try this plan out!Your opponent sides out glimpses? That's a first for me though... That card is bonkers versus you, as it will likely draw you enough gas to keep going after a terminus. I've found that they don't try to win with glimpse in the same fashion as order elves tries to - it's just not to end up empty handed after a terminus.
I would personally keep in Judgement. Some times you need more than 2 removal spells for their needle, chokes and libraries.
How many of you have played against chaos elves? It's not even comparable to regular elves.
*Pyroclasm and explosives are actually better than terminus as what is killed stay dead
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Fluster is still good to catch a GSZ or NO, both of which you don't want resolving. I much prefer it in the matchup over pierce as Elves often have access to two mana between Quirion Rangers with Dryad Arbor and Wirewood Symbiote with DRS, Birchlore, Heritage etc. It's just not reliable at all. They will build up the storm count for you, you can help it too. Whether it's worth boarding in, I've always found it effective personally. Maybe others have different results. It's also obviously very dependant on how many cards you have to bring in.
I wouldn't cut Counterspell or Ponder. CS is a generic answer to everything they're doing, and Ponder finds Terminus.
I completely agree on your assessment of Wirewood and Arbor being their best cards in the traditional sense of the matchup. When your win condition is Jace, you have to StP the Dryad as Terminus doesn't answer it. But I'd argue differently when Mentor is the kill. Many of their cards become completely obsolete in the face of an army of monks. It gives the matchup a very different angle where you can put it away after just one Terminus.
On Fluster, yes it's not ideal vs Chaos, but I don't think it's necessarily bad vs a good or a bad Elves player when on NO. It seems to me that Elves pilots rarely expect it. It's not any kind of 'trump', but it's much needed early interaction for GSZ or NO.
Chaos Elves is indeed a different beast and I need to work out a SB table for that. I would leave in at least two StP over the pair of flusters.
Perhaps I was wrong to SB out swords, though there are two Staticasters coming in. What would be your suggestion from the list posted above? I've just found them inneficient in the past.
Chill, not everything is directed at you. He made some good points and we're now talking about the matchup in general, not just with your SB.
I don't think a single Wear//Tear is enough for the matchup. They're bring in multiple needles (usually two), a Null Rod, a Sylvan and most likely a couple of Chokes. All of these you want to kill, I don't understand your point about only wanting to hit Choke?
In my experience Mentor doesn't just stall the board, it overwhelms it and wins. Though this is really where the difference in builds becomes apparent. I've been on 19 lands, 3 Predict etc. There are triggers flying everywhere. I remember hearing from Julian somewhere (I think a podcast on Miracles?) say they way Elves win is small chunks of 3 damage at a time or so, Mentor completely invalidates that.
I'm still not sold on Moat. After board they're grinding you out, not setting up an alpha swing. It's just so slow and clunky, and they have ways around it as well as ways to kill it.
There's no 'panic', but seems like some differing opinions on the matchup so it's good to talk about it. I completely agree with Staticaster having a place in all SBs. If only to make SBing vs Storm SO much easier. You no longer need to leave in a couple of StP for Swarm/Bob, or Terminus for Empty. This beautiful pinger does it all!
I've just asked two friends of mine, both have been playing the little green men for a good few years how they SB vs Miracles and they both take out Glimpse too. Which surprises me as I thought you'd leave it in to build post Terminus too. But the reasoning is it just makes you overcommit into said Terminus, though NO isn't a huge lot better in the MU either. They then shave on Heritages and Nettles.Your opponent sides out glimpses? That's a first for me though... That card is bonkers versus you, as it will likely draw you enough gas to keep going after a terminus. I've found that they don't try to win with glimpse in the same fashion as order elves tries to - it's just not to end up empty handed after a terminus.
I would personally keep in Judgement. Some times you need more than 2 removal spells for their needle, chokes and libraries.
How many of you have played against chaos elves? It's not even comparable to regular elves.
*Pyroclasm and explosives are actually better than terminus as what is killed stay dead
Judgment is too clunky, I'd have a second Wear//Tear over it for sure.
I've not played vs Chaos Elves, I believe you when you say it's a different beast and I assume much harder. I'll try and get some games in vs friends.
Last edited by Whitefaces; 03-25-2016 at 05:37 PM.
@Minniehajj
Congratz, nice list! I really like it . I have been testing something very similar lately:)
Hey guys a few questions about SB and how to play some matchups.
Context, I’ve played a ton of paper Legacy in the past and recently found out my old MTGO cards appreciated in value and was able to buy into the format again. Running Leagues mostly trying to get a read on the format. I’ve been running into what I assume everyone else is and I feel good against the various combo decks, but I have been struggling with the Eldrazi and Shardless Sultai match ups. I’ve tried a few different builds, including main deck Mentors, but I’m looking for SB slots to shore up those two matchups and general lines of play. I’ve run through the thread and I’m looking for input on tech like From the Ashes, Moat/Humility, Back to Basics, and Meekstone/Ensnaring Bridge.
Lately I’ve felt like I needed more ways to interact early so I dropped a Jace. 2 Mentors, and a Clique for the Spell Pierce’s and Spell Snares. Below is my current list any feedback would be awesome.
4 x Swords
1 x Council’s Judgement
4 x Terminus
2 x Entreat
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Ponder
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Jace TMS
4 x Force of Will
4 x Top
2 x Arid Mesa
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Island
3 x Plains
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Tundra
3 x Volcanic Island
SB
2 x Rest in Peace
3 x Flusterstorm
1 x Vendellion Clique
2 x Pyroblast
3 x Blood Moon
2 x Wear//Tear
1 x Supreme Verdict
1 x Moat
First of all, congratulations. I look forward to reading your report.
You may cover this question when you go over your match ups, but why did you feel that a 2nd surgical is better than the staticaster?
Did the quick report here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...945#post940945
Short answer to this, I think Lands will be highly represented, as most loam decks will be, to help fight this eldrazi menace, and I think that surgical is instrumental against any loam deck, especially without having access to blood moon.
Mackan is playing Supreme Verdict in this slot instead, and he also top 8'd and won 2 different events from this past weekend, so I'm sure that's also a great option in this slot
So... if Eldrazi and Infect are rampant in your LGS, would Reprisal be on anyone's radar? It can be flashbacked And it escapes Chalice on 1.
Against Infect, I don't like that it costs 2 mana. Once you use it once, they'll never pump higher than 4, and they can easily get 3 (Exalted + Pendelhaven).
Against Eldrazi, maybe as a 1-of? It does cost 2 mana. And since they go wide as well as medium-sized, this might not be fast enough to keep up, especially when you need 4 mana to flashback, at which point I'd rather just play a Supreme Verdict since nothing regenerates Eldrazi.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
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