3/2/2 is the dual split I've been using for a long, long time, and with 3 basics, it's almost perfect.Originally Posted by Drunken Rancor
What are people's thoughts on Chains of Mephistopheles? I'm contemplating throwing my credit card at one. At least for the sideboard - but there are so many blue decks right now that it could even be a mainboard card. And, it doesn't hurt us too badly with Bobs.
It doesn't hurt you at all. Bob puts cards in your hand and Chains replaces extra draws so there is no effect. Interestingly Chains didn't effect Dig either ;)
Oh, I know it doesn't hurt us because Bob isn't technically draw. I know it's a good sideboard card - but I wasn't clear in my question. I was wondering about people's thoughts on it mainboard, instead of a Painful Truths or normal draw spell. I think I'd rather mess with people's card advantage than get my own.
Chains does not conflict with Bob, but it conflicts with Library(and SoFaI).
If you really really want that effect, you can playtest Spirit of labyrinth for 0.5% price first. It has clock of 3 power, and buff your Goyf if died.
Chains are more often used by decks which has no access to White mana at all(e.g. Jund).
Last edited by Tokugawa; 03-24-2016 at 01:11 PM.
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
It depends if your local field has a high proportion of decks with Brainstorm, Ponder, Jace, Elves or Enchantress. If so, then yes it will help to slow them down. But if you're only facing those decks for 1 in 3 matches, then perhaps you might want sideboard cards that work for the other 2 out 3 matches instead.
(Just don't cast it with your own Sylvan Library, otherwise things can get messy!)
It's a cool card, but I'd rather just draw my own cards than nug theirs. Coming from someone who owns a few, I literally NEVER use them. Ever ever.
Yeah, chains is kind of like life from the loam in my opinion. It just completely shuts some decks down in the right circumstances, but against decks like Delver/Shardless I think you just want to remove their threats before worrying about turning anything else off, lest you be mauled by a child and his elemental friends and jeff goldblum or a frankenfish.
I do not think Chains is worth the shell out, save your credit cards. I do think the new instant speed Vindicate that I posted a couple pages back is worth a shot though. I have really been conflicted as far as Painful Truths goes in this deck too. It seems awesome but 3 mana is so much :(
I think Junk is the best deck in the meta right now, it is just a matter of finding the "right" build, that is to say the build that has game against:
1) Miracles
2) Edlrazi
3) Grixis Delver
4) Shardless
5) Lands
6) Storm
7) Elves/Show and Tell/Blade/Bant decks/Haufen
Someone can find the right combination, I know it. This color combination has ALL the answers to the meta.
I can push out lists if y'all can test. My problem? Handsome, wealthy army dentist just has zero time to grind games. #Humble
I would like to know your opinion on Oath of Nissa, as in-depth as you care to go. I have top 4'ed a small local legacy win-a-box with it recently (month ago), and I have done well with it in modern, also.
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I'll test any list which has potential against my local field, similar to ironclad8690's list above....
1) Miracles
2) DnT (Eldrazi hasn't surfaced yet)
3) All the Delvers (Grixis, BUG, RUG, Stormchase)
4) Shardless
5) Lands
the meta here is very similar but +elves and Jund, I would test too.
I would be keen in a list that as game against miracles, lands and delver.
Just got back. Ill post later :)
I think it's alright. It gives you a lot of land consistency and it bottoms bad cards most of the time. I found it pumped Goyf in a reasonable number of games. My issue game with running a 4th color as an experiment, going deep, and then moving to blue decks for awhile.
IMO, I'd use Oath most of the time and be at 20 lands, (3-4 Wastelands, 8 Fetch, 3 Basics, 5-6 duals.) IME I almost pulled off this in 4-colors but with severe issues against D&T. I got rid of my Lilianas so I'd probably run:
-15-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
-6-
2 Equips
4 Oath of Nissa
-17-
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 BitterBlossom
3 ThoughtSeize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2-3 ? (Sylvan, Life from the Loam, Thoughtseize #4, Equip #3, you get the idea)
-20 lands-
This is partly because I really want to use Hymn some more again because I miss it.
I should say, Sylvan and Oath have no reason to compete with one another. Oath combines well with it (bottoms the garbage you're floating.)
EDIT: I just realized I probably have to change the Blossoms to dudes for Oath. not a big deal; just something to note.
I agree it's super with Sylvan Library for the reason you stated, I also have buffed goyf with it occasionally, and that is pretty strong. I've been playing Elspeth for the token generator as it's only 1x more mana than LSouls and plays well vs. Miracles. I still run a Lili occasionally, but the deck is good, and I also run top to help ensure value is there for the Oath.
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I think Oath is okay. The second ability isn't hugely relevant, and for the first ability, I'd rather just have Sylvans, Truths, and Fetchlands. I want to draw LOTS of cards :P
This is pretty much my meta.1) Miracles
2) DnT (Eldrazi hasn't surfaced yet)
3) All the Delvers (Grixis, BUG, RUG, Stormchase)
4) Shardless
5) Lands
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze - Split here is to be better against Snapcaster and better in the Shardless Game 1. With Zenith, you actually see it.
12
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy - You're running tokens, may as well.
5
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (but with recent metashifts, I could probably also be down with Jitte #2 or Feast and Famine, or War and Peace). You want pro-white Against Miracles, pro-black against Batterskull, pro-Blue against Jace, but SoLaS is the weakest Sword. War and Peace helps clock Miracles, but does less for Batterskull. Feast and Famine also isn't super...
3
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
7
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
3 Lingering Souls - Miracles and Shardless breaker, your anti-Liliana and Jace
1 Bitterblossom - anti Liliana and Jace that comes down a turn earlier, and Miracles can't remove it game 1.
9
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
22
With 3 slots left, you could throw in 3 Confidants, or I'm partial to 3 Siege Rhinos. Evasion is pretty decent, the lifeswing helps stabilize the midgame, and he's only susceptible to STP. He's not the biggest boy on the block, but he doesn't need to be when you also have fliers. Library and Truths help you keep up with Brainstorm decks, but I will admit that back in the day I was running 3 Library and 4 Confidant, and I really enjoyed it. I just think Confidant is a bit weak, but might be worth trying again. He's obviously nuts against Miracles, Shardless, etc., and he's a must kill, on site. Arbor gives you the ability to EOt fetch with Equipment in play after Terminus to do the nugging against Miracles.
Boards are obviously complicated. If you're looking first and foremost to nug Miracles all day long, you need Needles, Choke, Grip, Teeg, and walkers. It's a lot, but they're also applicable in other midrange matchups, as well as Storm (Teeg). Safekeeper is also a nice lock to have with Teeg.
With Delver, you can either board in sweepers/more removal, or stuff like Rhino. I'm a big fan of Engineered Explosives, but with the new flip card change, it's not quite as good at nuking Delvers.
For Lands, it depends. You can kind of beat the 20/20 with STP, but we don't have access to Moon, and Tsabo's Web is too narrow. I'd run Needles and shroud creatures to try and get there. Ooze is also a fucking nightmare for them.
Shardless is all about the grind. You need to keep up in cards, and since we have similar threats, you need tools against Jace and the Goyf war.
DnT is about winning the equipment war, saving your resources, and not dying to RIP. Sweepers are key.
So, something like this should keep everyone happy:
2 Pithing Needle - Lands, Miracles, etc.
2 Zealous Persecution - Swarm, Goyf wars, etc,
1 Toxic Deluge - Swarm
2 Gaddock Teeg - Combo and Miracles
1 Sylvan Safekeeper - Decay mirrors/protect Teeg
2 Krosan Grip - Miracles/MUD/etc.
1 Garruk Relentless - Miracles, Shardless
1 Sylvan Library/Choke - Miracles, Shardless, Delver
1 STP - Delver, Lands
2 Engineered Explosives - Delver, Miracles, etc.
A singleton Loam isn't a bad idea either, and easily replaces an EE or such.
Mileage may vary.
-Matt
But this has nothing to do with running Oath and everything to do with trimming mediocre cards that do similar things, like Blue decks do. They don't trim Brainstorm to fit Truths or Library. Certainly BS is usually better than Oath, but the point is that they're not card slots that are in competition with one another. Oath may mean you run 1 less land, 1 less removal, 2 less something; and that's it. The something can be critters you can now find easier and don't want to see 3 of (say SFM, or Sculler, Bob (who is great but much much worse in multiples.))
It's also about adding 1-drops so you participate in the game earlier rather than miss your drop 20-25% of the time (my composition goes from 77% to 88% just by turning 2-3 drops and lands into Oaths; and this is if you count Plow as a 1-drop which is unreliable. Otherwise it's going from 60%!!! to 77%)
The consistency on that end is huge. But the consistency in landing a brutal 2-drop while having ample lands to do it is also better.
TL;DR : you're looking at it from the wrong perspective because you're assuming you can't run other card-fixing cards in it's place. If you want to drop 3 Bobs and a land for Oaths, it will probably play better than dropping Sylvans/Truths for Oaths; and really consistency is (IMO) the whole point of Bob.
But I guess the question is, is it good enough? Have you tested otherwise to say it's amazing?
I thought it was quite good. It doesn't *feel* really awesome, but neither does ponder or even brainstorm a lot of the time. They just allow you to do a thing. I noticed that my land drops and flooding were kept in check very well and when I dropped them from the 4c list I instantly had issues finding dudes, the right dude, or finding lands when I should.
A lot of this comes from the fact that it's a 1-drop, increasing the number of keepable hands, and the fact that even if you miss the thing you wanted, you cleared 3 cards (acting like a perfect Preordain, sometimes being better than Brainstorm or Ponder.)
I could easily see a list like the one you had (2 Truths, 2 Library) still have Oaths, simply because it makes your day easy. You may swap the GSZ and a couple sorceries to dudes; but it's not a huge problem to say "reduce the consistency" of losing GSZ, Arbor, a land, and a Souls to add 4 cards that just increase consistency (and a lot more of it, and at the earliest point in the game.)
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