I agree with this sentiment. Next month I'll play this deck (my version) at my legacy win a box. I'll post my list for clarity later.
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When evaluating a pseudo-drawing spell, players should focus on what card it can NOT keep, not only what it could keep.
Consider this fact: Ringleader is a MVP in goblins deck, while sylvan messenger could never be played by combo elves.
Why? Because ringleader sent dead vials to bottom. "Not drawing vials" is even more important and crucial than "drawing goblins", to a goblin player.
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
Back to the topic of Junk decks:
Whether "typical" or "untypical" builds,it runs about 20 non-creature spells. Cards that oath cannot keep, is already more than Non-land cards it keep. If added the number(3-4) of Oath itself to the former part, well...you would be more often forced to pick 1 irrelevant land.
As a midrange deck, Junk often playing a defensive role. Under that circumstance, disrupt and removal may be more urgently needed, than your own creatures.
One day, when just sent a crucial Hymn/Decay/Stp to bottom, you will regret for replacing your loyal Library with such "psuedo Ponders".
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
That is no different than saying "one day, when you play a fetch and you see you had that crucial Plow/Hymn/Decay on top, you'll regret replacing your Duals with fetches."Originally Posted by Tokugawa
It's a non-sequitor. Every card draw is random and missing a random card draw because you increased the consistency with a card that occasionally randomizes cards you didn't know about doesn't mean anything. There was a time I could have used a Nihil Spellbomb on a Storm Player in order to get a card draw even though it was holding him off of a win-con. I fetched as I did something else and saw Teeg on top of my library. It was the *right* play as a 1-in-50 chance (or maybe 1-in-8ish if I was running GSZs or other bears or something, don't remember) to *maybe* get something opposed to having something that was relevant *now* is not statistically relevant; it's statistically the wrong play regardless of anecdotal data points that would suggest otherwise.
Similarly, if you haven't played the card, and considered that you can adjust the deck a tiny bit to make it a little more likely to help you out; I think dissing on a draw spell is absurd. As someone who *did* use it, I'm saying it didn't screw me, it increased my consistency, and it reduced flooding and other nonsense. If you shove a plow to the bottom or you get your 1-in-20 wiff or whatever, it's much less bad than you think; because all those games where you kept a 1-lander and it found you a land by T2 or it found you your SFM/Goyf against the correct MU, or it pushed away a bunch of discard are great. Every game where you didn't have to mulligan because you have a 1-drop that fixes your life is a great selling point, and it comes up a lot more often than "dang I'm sure glad I had Land #21 in here."
Further, your anecdote is confirmation bias (fallacy #2 here) because you're not only not counting the times that it shoved away Plows against Storm but all the times it shoved away Discard in the late game against shardless. You're not counting all the times where 3 garbage spells/lands were in your way against Miracles. It's all random, and getting a card-for-a-card doesn't hurt you.
It could be that the card is not good enough; but your argument is basically "Brainstorm can be bad because what about those games where you don't draw a fetch!?" or "Ponder can be bad because what if one card is really good and two are total shit?!" Well.. it still drew you a card now, and made your hand more relevant, even if not by much. Most of the time the card is much more upside. The fact that it grows Goyf is also pretty relevant IME, where it outsizes Anglers, Smashers, and other dudes. Feel free to disagree or decide I'm an idiot; but I did run it for a good month or so and the main point I took away from it was what most people get when they run brainstorm/ponder: "it sure is nice not to have to mulligan for Lands all the time."
I mean; Matt's list, if we're fair; has just as much chance of drawing arbor as it does GSZing for it, if not more because GSZ is only good for arbor on rare occasion. *That* is a bad deck choice IMO; much worse than replacing the "may be useful" GSZ and the "Almost always garbage" Arbor for a couple of psuedo-ponders. If you can't agree on something that is basically tautologically true, we're at a permanent impasse.
Mishra's Bauble.
Always draw you a card.
Buff Goyf immediately.
Give additional information.
Why not give it a chance?
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
I'd play GSZ over Bauble. The Oaths are good with SFM, I've put a Batterskull on the bottom of my library and then immediately grabbed it with the SFM I got off that same oath.
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I'm playing a Goyf-less list right now (budget) with the equipment package of Batterskull, Jitte, SOLAS and I'm loving it. I run SOFI online but because people on ebay are idiots, it never came. I've seen gotten refunded (but don't have money anymore for a new one), but I don't mind it. Obviously you don't always get a card from connecting, but the 3 life per turn (or protection) has been immensely helpful. And remember, a Spirit token with SOLAS can block Marit Lage all day.
Woah woah woah, the Zenith is there not just for Arbor, but also as a Teeg, Goyf, Ooze, etc. Sure, it's not increasing chances a ton, but it still is. Oath is only finding things on the top of the deck. If Teeg is deep, well, then I guess you're fucked. It's a tutor, not a filter. I'd rather have slightly increased chance than not having it. I agree, I did play 3 GSZ a while back and I really enjoyed it, but the meta was different.
I think there are better cards and worse cards for sure, and better and worse ways to find them. The problem is, we're choosing the non-best ways to find them (non-Ponder/Brainstorm), so we're in a pretty wide boat of "is this almost good enough?" It isn't a bad thing, it's just where we are.
Please do feel free to test Oath more, I'd love to hear your feedback. Feel free to tweak lists I post. Feel free to do whatever, as long as we're trying things and (ideally) making progress towards better, more well-rounded builds. I prefer to play a list with more bullets and answers compared to a list playing similar to deadguy, because there are so many decks that are good enough in the meta to play. Realistically, we're trying disrupt, destroy, and remove opposing threats, and then land a guy and go to town. With the current removal suites however, and Snapcaster Mage, this is increasingly difficult. This is why we've switched to cards like Souls, walkers, Bitterblossom, and Sigarda - because they are more of a "land this threat, get the girl, win the game" sort of threats. It's why I've been playing Nic Fit more. You disrupt, then drop Sigarda and attack three or four times. I just wish we had a threat like that.
A Junk player top4'ed in CFB event(92 players).
http://cfbgamecenter.wpengine.com/le...-top-16-lists/
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
Hi everybody,
I have been playing Junk deck for a while and I have always considered this deck as competitive, but not as a tournament deck.
I believe the main reasons is because Jund has more powerful sideboard cards and also some main card which can have a double effect and let the deck accelerate.
Jund decks can in fact use: Bloodbraid Elf, Red Elemental Blast, Punishing Fire, Ancient Grudge, Kolaghan's Command, etc.
Said that, I still keep playing my lovely Junk basing the strategy mainly on Liliana and Lingering: in fact Lingering is giving me the flying creature to equip and potentially can be selected to be discarded with Liliana.
Regarding Oath, I think is not as helpful as can be a Sylvan or a Sensei Top: in early game I do not feel the need of drawing cards but mainly I play the game around shaman/discard, Stone, lilly, Lingering.
I do not play Hymn at the moment as I prefer to lower the mana cost and see the opponent cards to plan the game ahead.
I write you here my actual list for your consideration, suggestion, and discussion:
Creatures (16):
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls
Discards (6):
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
Removals (8):
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate
Planeswalker (4):
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20):
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
Equip (2):
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Others (4):
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Esnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
Hopefully some new green/ black/ white cards will be realease in the new expansions to boost our lovely Junk!
Last edited by mg7; 04-07-2016 at 10:34 PM. Reason: sideboard updated
Jund has many powerful maindeck cards, but they have a much more weaker sideboard armory than Junk.
Having no access to White is crucial.
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
It's pretty interesting that Junk is coming into it's own due to Eldrazi's influence on the meta. I wholly agree with the above: White is a huge advantage for sideboarding against all forms of combo and the primary reason that I'm almost always in it.
Jund's issues (I think it's worse than Shardless and Junk) are that it's clunky, it's manabase is the worst out of the three (Grove), and it's removal is pretty mediocre. Pfire shines at times, but the strategy didn't age well with Pyro and Mentor coming into their own, Serra Avenger being a go-to for D&T to race TNN and being dead against 2/3rds of RUG or Grixis Delver's creatures.
On Hymn: I'm already turned off of it again. The BB is just a bit of a bear to manage T2 and 1-drop discard works a lot better with DRS or curving out:
T1 - 1-drop discard, T2 - Thing you just protected or is best based on information known
or
T1 - DRS, T2 - Discard + 2-drop.
Hymn wants to be casted as early as possible and the tempo delay of 2-mana instead of 1-mana is a big deal IMO.
Agreed.
Also, anyone running Souls should be running Cabal Therapy. Please and thanks, guys.
I know that Souls/Therapy is good if you get both. Most decks that run Therapy have (in my opinion) an easier time flashing it back then Souls. Either through Veteran that's a 1 drop or Zombie Tokens via dredge. Therapy is a disgustingly good card - but is it flat out better than just running regular discard. It's a feel bad if you go T1 Therapy - miss and then t2 you have a SFM, DRS or Bob. You really aren't going to want to sac your dude.
Have you just considered not missing? Plus youre only running 2-3. You are much more likely to have the Thoughtseize instead.
Elves is a combo deck, goblins is not. Comparing sylvan messenger to ringleader is disingenuous.
Or, don't cast Oath of Nissa if you need a removal spell? Additionally, if you're dedicated to running oath, you can make some deck building changes to support it better (Shriekmaw/Tidehollow Sculler/Pridemage instead of the spells). Its a little slower obviously but probably worth experimenting with.
Also, pretty sure someone said earlier that you don't have to run one instead of the other, they can be played together. Thats like saying "No room for ponders in this deck, already running brainstorm".
After being asked for my current list and going 4-1 last week at a local I decided to post.
Creatures (11)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
Planeswalkers(3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Spells(21)
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
3 Painful Truths
Equipment(3)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of (Meta Call)
Land (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
I know how this forum loves to post and destroy random BGW lists.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Things like SFM are still fine for Therapy. They gained CA and you presumably are doing this because you saw multiples of a card in their hand (CA) or you're going to lose. Either way, flashing it back then seems fine because you were going to lose or are moving a plan forward.
Similar to Brainstorm, don't consider Therapy an actual 1-drop because you're unlikely to know what to call until T2 (based on lands and spells played.) If you've scouted you may use it T1 or if you're *really good*/desperate. But just because it's CMC-1 doesn't mean you need to play it ASAP to get use from it.
Lastly, it's usually a great way to nail equips and being 2-cards in one is useful. It's also one of those interesting things that you can name a card and guarantee they don't have it. Hate Thalia? Doesn't matter if they have two. Worried about Counterbalance? You can know they don't have it regardless.
Very similar to what I like to run, Lava, nice list. What were your matchups? I see you are in AZ, have you had success in the big events there?
I used to run Courser of Kruphix + 2 SDT/2 Sylvan as an engine -- CoK is basically a GSZable Dark Confidant if you have one of those going -- but I have been wondering myself if Painful Truths is just better. 3 seems like a pretty hearty endorsement.
Truths is currently in any deck I run with black. Grisix Control, Jund, Junk, Nic Fit, Bug Control amd others.
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