Miracle Control

[twndomn]

Against Infect, I don't like that it costs 2 mana. Once you use it once, they'll never pump higher than 4, and they can easily get 3 (Exalted + Pendelhaven).

Against Eldrazi, maybe as a 1-of? It does cost 2 mana. And since they go wide as well as medium-sized, this might not be fast enough to keep up, especially when you need 4 mana to flashback, at which point I'd rather just play a Supreme Verdict since nothing regenerates Eldrazi.

Allow me to clarify, if Infect player is chipping your with 1 or 2 poison counter per turn, he's making the correct play. I am referring the case when he wants to rush you, like Invigorate + Berserk, or become immense, then Reprisal would work. Reprisal would be a SB card at best, I'm Not saying you should replace StP.

The beauty of Reprisal Is the CMC 2. 4 Reality Smasher and 4 Thought-Knot, that's 8 targets guaranteed at the least. Verdict is a sorcery speed 4 CMC card that would just get removed by Thought-knot. You need to float Verdict and Terminus, which can be difficult if Chalice is preventing you from playing SDT (or brainstorm in response) in the first place, not to mention Thorn could push Verdict to CMC 5.

Imagine running 3 Reprisal and 3 EE, EE would take care all the chalices as well as Endless Ones. When EE refuses to show up, you can chain Reprisal + Snapcaster until you find EE/Wear/Disenchant to unlock yourself. Keep in mind, in the SB games, your Council's judgement and Terminus are magnets for Warping Wail, don't all-in on these sorcery spells.

[Mackan]

I played some Legacy in Gothenburg last weekend...

I entered three events with the same 74/75 as Alex/Min/Sith have been playing. In the sideboard flex-slot I ran a Supreme Verdict over Izzet Staticaster/Surgical Extraction/Ham Sandwich.
I wanted an unconditional wrath in a field with a lot of Tarmogoyf, Merfolk and Eldrazi.

Here's a short report.

Event 1 (7 rounds+top8)
Elves (W)
Brave Sir Robin (W)
4-color Delver (W)
Manaless dredge (L)
Grixis Tezzeret (W)
Burn (W)
Eldrazi (ID)

T8:
Manaless dredge (L)

Event 2 (6 rounds+top8)
Esper control (W)
4-color Delver (W)
Shardless BUG (W)
Ant (W)
Miracles (ID)
Tin-Fins (W)

T8:
Eldrazi (W)
4-color delver with Stifle (W)
Miracles (W)

Event 3 (3 rounds single elimination)
Jund Nic-Fit (W)
Shardless BUG (W)
Merfolk (W)

16-2-2

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

[Whitefaces]

'Keep or mull' article on Channel Fireball. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...iago-saporito/

[Quasim0ff]

'Keep or mull' article on Channel Fireball. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...iago-saporito/

Mulligan.

not even close. It's a functional 5 card hard w/o blue sources.

[Minniehajj]

'Keep or mull' article on Channel Fireball. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...iago-saporito/

There's a few outside factors you have to consider when looking at this
while they say on the play vs. unknown opponent game 1, I have to think about the rest of the cards in my deck, I have to consider the variable of wasteland, etc.

For example, if I were playing Joe's list, I'd mulligan this hand in a heartbeat because the number of miserable draws are astronomical. Cavern, second karakas, etc. we absolutely have to find brainstorm and blue source to make this hand playable and the ability to do so is pretty hinged on deck construction
assuming top resolves w/ fow backup.

I think, even playing my list, it's a difficult decision and I think I'd personally mulligan this hand because while I could functionally draw into other cantrips, etc, it's just not a real hand without brainstorm. Finding that specific brainstorm and a blue source is going to be difficult. I'd think about it a fair bit, but, in the end, I think I'd mulligan this hand in favor of the scry for a mulligan to 6.

A few other things, if I were on the draw, I would 100% keep this hand
If I could scry, and randomly have one card from this hand removed to be a mulligan to 6, on the play, I'd keep.

Very interesting puzzle, thanks for the link!

[CutthroatCasual]

Mull. It doesn't even have an STP.

[Whitefaces]

Mulligan.

not even close. It's a functional 5 card hard w/o blue sources.

That's an incredibly short sited way of viewing it.

There's a few outside factors you have to consider when looking at this
while they say on the play vs. unknown opponent game 1, I have to think about the rest of the cards in my deck, I have to consider the variable of wasteland, etc.

For example, if I were playing Joe's list, I'd mulligan this hand in a heartbeat because the number of miserable draws are astronomical. Cavern, second karakas, etc. we absolutely have to find brainstorm and blue source to make this hand playable and the ability to do so is pretty hinged on deck construction
assuming top resolves w/ fow backup.

I think, even playing my list, it's a difficult decision and I think I'd personally mulligan this hand because while I could functionally draw into other cantrips, etc, it's just not a real hand without brainstorm. Finding that specific brainstorm and a blue source is going to be difficult. I'd think about it a fair bit, but, in the end, I think I'd mulligan this hand in favor of the scry for a mulligan to 6.

A few other things, if I were on the draw, I would 100% keep this hand
If I could scry, and randomly have one card from this hand removed to be a mulligan to 6, on the play, I'd keep.

Very interesting puzzle, thanks for the link!

You raise some of the main points on my mind, mostly the emphasis that it's an unknown opponent and the relevance of the knowledge of the list. If this was Joes list, I think I'd mull too, but it's still close. Top is just that good in the deck.

But let's assume it's one of the 'hybrid' builds, a few Cliques and a single Karakas but with Ponders etc. Personally, I keep it. Against an unknown opponent, especially on the play, what I want is a basic land, a top and a FoW. Entreat and Terminus are dead for a while, and no blue is far from ideal obviously, but you have 4 looks to find just a live card to play 'on curve' depending on the matchup. A blue fetch is number one as it will dig you so much deeper into the deck whilst also turning on many more draws. StP and Terminus are also 'live' draws vs creature decks without finding a blue source.

Mull. It doesn't even have an STP.

My main argument for keeping, which coincides with what CutthroatCasual says, is that it's an unknown matchup and we are a reactive deck. You say it doesn't even have a StP, but what if you're playing against Belcher? Until we have the information what the matchup is, we want to land a top and develop land drops. Force of Will gives us some protection against combo and depending what we find from the top of our deck with top it can be used quite aggressively should it be needed.

This is a great question they've posed, and seems like a lot of people are split on it. The natural instinct is to assume the Miracles are essentially a forced mull already, but that really diverts away from the actual playability of the hand which is about card quality over quantity given our lack of information.

[Quasim0ff]

That's an incredibly short sited way of viewing it.



You raise some of the main points on my mind, mostly the emphasis that it's an unknown opponent and the relevance of the knowledge of the list. If this was Joes list, I think I'd mull too, but it's still close. Top is just that good in the deck.

But let's assume it's one of the 'hybrid' builds, a few Cliques and a single Karakas but with Ponders etc. Personally, I keep it. Against an unknown opponent, especially on the play, what I want is a basic land, a top and a FoW. Entreat and Terminus are dead for a while, and no blue is far from ideal obviously, but you have 4 looks to find just a live card to play 'on curve' depending on the matchup. A blue fetch is number one as it will dig you so much deeper into the deck whilst also turning on many more draws. StP and Terminus are also 'live' draws vs creature decks without finding a blue source.



My main argument for keeping, which coincides with what CutthroatCasual says, is that it's an unknown matchup and we are a reactive deck. You say it doesn't even have a StP, but what if you're playing against Belcher? Until we have the information what the matchup is, we want to land a top and develop land drops. Force of Will gives us some protection against combo and depending what we find from the top of our deck with top it can be used quite aggressively should it be needed.

This is a great question they've posed, and seems like a lot of people are split on it. The natural instinct is to assume the Miracles are essentially a forced mull already, but that really diverts away from the actual playability of the hand which is about card quality of quantity given our lack of information.

Sorry, I was about to leave.

Game 1, this is just not good enough. You are playing 12(10) cantrips, top included, so the mere argument that you "have a turn 1 top with force" is just not enough.

You have no protection against some of the most common decks; Delver (Swords), Storm (Interaction (Force is in no way enough)) and you can cast one spell in your hand.

For that hand to even be remotely playable we need the following:
1) Not just die to any of the top decks in the format, combo wise. This hand does nothing for this to happen.
2) Draw brainstorm.
3) Draw a fetchland.
4) Stabilize with no interaction for the first few turns.

I am in no way going to keep a hand with a karakas and a plains. I'd be more likely to keep it with double plains, to be honest. This hand is, together with everything else it has going against it, very weak to wasteland.

[twndomn]

That opening 7's merits are
1. Fow and a Blue card, stops abusive turn 1 play
2. Has 2 lands
3. SDT

The issue with that opening 7,
1. Effectively a 5 cards hand
2. CB is merely a FoW pitcher, not even close toward casting it
3. Drawing a Brainstorm or seeing a Brainstorm in the Top 3 is not even good enough, you still need to find your Blue source or fetch.

Instead of focusing on the 7, let's think about the 6. Assume we mulligan, what would happen? The worst case scenario is that your 6 has zero lands. If you run 20 lands Miracles, it's certainly possible. Say your 6 is a one-lander, you still get to scry. Let's say your 6-cards-one-lander is a blue source land/fetch, and you either have a cantrip in your other 5 cards or coming from the scry card; then, you are immediately better than that sad 7, even if those 5 cards don't have a SDT.

Look, the opening 7 stated is effectively a 5 with SDT as part of the 5. You're pretty much playing lottery for your first SDT activation. If you're stuck upon first activation (no fetch, no cantrip), you're stuck. Sure, you're safe-guard from turn 1 Chalice, turn 1 Vial, turn 1 whatever, but you are not going too much further from there.

[Stefanogs]

I would keep it. Top on play + force and blue card of course is a very strong reason on play versus unknown opponent. 2 lands is something favorable too. Karakas may help against lands, reanimate or death and taxes. Its a substantial hand against miracles, death and taxes, belcher, show and tell, even eldrazi and reanimate, but not good against delver and infect.

[CutthroatCasual]

How long have you been playing Miracles? Because FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep. If even ONE of those lands was an Island (any kind), that hand is keepable. But as it is, it's garbage, even with the Top, which puts you down a turn because you'll be spinning on upkeep to find a blue source.

[iatee]

As a D+T player, I'd give a Miracles player that hand any day. You're playing a Wasteland target on your second turn and have a bunch of dead cards in hand. If there's not a fetch in your top 3, you most likely just lose. It might beat a hand totally dependent on a Vial + Thalia, but there's no way you should go all in on that. Especially in the scry-rule era where mulligans are far less punished.

[Stefanogs]

How long have you been playing Miracles? Because FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep. If even ONE of those lands was an Island (any kind), that hand is keepable. But as it is, it's garbage, even with the Top, which puts you down a turn because you'll be spinning on upkeep to find a blue source.

Hey, i'll ask you to please pay attention only to the thread and dont use argument from autorithy ("how long do you play..") to support your position. Believe it or not, but most of those present in this topic (including me), have been playing this deck for years. The question is so doubtful that both PVDDR (a very good miracles player) and Saporito chose to stay with his hand, but i did not used it as an argument. For the discussion, BBD would mulligan: "A deck with Ponder, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top is good at mulliganing, and this hand is really bad. You'd have to find a blue source and a brainstorm to make this hand do anything. One Force of Will by itself isn't enough. I normally keep any hand with top, but this hand is just too bad for me, and the beautiful thing is tjat Top can also just be in your 6 card hand! Also, don't play non-basic plains in your deck. This hand is a perfect example of why almost every land should produce blue mana".

I agree with you that "FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep", but that it not the single reason to keep this hand on play against a unknown opponent and meta.

[Entreat_the_Beedrills]

'Keep or mull' article on Channel Fireball. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...iago-saporito/

The deck runs plenty of filters and cantrips which should help when mulliganing. The best value would be to stick Counterbalance into play without having to force it away, which probably isn't an option until turn 4 or turn 3 at the best. Force of will on turn one is good, but where do you go from there? Either way, the path to closing out the game is far off without blue mana and keeping this just doesn't make sense to me.

[twndomn]

Hey, i'll ask you to please pay attention only to the thread and dont use argument from autorithy ("how long do you play..") to support your position. Believe it or not, but most of those present in this topic (including me), have been playing this deck for years. The question is so doubtful that both PVDDR (a very good miracles player) and Saporito chose to stay with his hand, but i did not used it as an argument.

I agree with you that "FoW + blue card does not mean auto keep", but that it not the single reason to keep this hand on play against a unknown opponent and meta.

First of all, if you look at the comment section of CFB site, BBD has already said Mulligan.

Second, I am not certain about the assessment of PVDDR (a very good miracles player). PVDDR is a great PT-level magic player, but there are many experts, who are not on PT, has a lot more experience and enjoy some degree of achievement in Miracles, arguably more so than PV.

If you want to go by credential, I would go by Reid Duke, BBD, Schönegger, and Lossett over PV. I would question why should Legacy Miracles players care about PV so much. Saporito who?

[Stefanogs]

First of all, if you look at the comment section of CFB site, BBD has already said Mulligan.

Second, I am not certain about the assessment of PVDDR (a very good miracles player). PVDDR is a great PT-level magic player, but there are many experts, who are not on PT, has a lot more experience and enjoy some degree of achievement in Miracles, arguably more so than PV.

If you want to go by credential, I would go by Reid Duke, BBD, Schönegger, and Lossett over PV. I would question why should Legacy Miracles players care about PV so much. Saporito who?

1. As I said, i did not want to use credentials to justify if i would or not keep this hand, but only exemplified that some people with experience would keep it (while others do not - like BBD).

2. Just clarifying (for the love of nationality...), PV may not be playing the SCG or Bazaar, but legacy is his favorite constructed format and he even did top 8 on GP Paris 2014 with Miracles.

[Cipher]

I think that's a greedy keep. It's fine against Delver, since you have plenty of time to hit a blue land, and all of your Swords and Terminus are live draws. It's beyond terrible against combo, though. You need to hit double blue for Counterbalance, and the miracles in hand truly are dead. If you have to pitch Counterbalance, it just gets worse.

As I see it, if Legacy is 60% midrange/creature decks, and 40% combo, that hand is 60% to be just barely keepable, and 40% to be unplayable. A mulligan with a free scry seems much better.

[klaus]

Mull fo'sho.
Terminus is dead, EtA is dead, CB is dead other than being a pitch card, thus FoW'ing or not FoW'ing both makes it a virtual 4-card hand. Plus you have no interaction beyond FoW until the end of the early game.

Another aspect that wasn't mentioned yet: + BS isn't enough, since you need to be able to cast BS AND shuffle EtA + Terminus away, meaning you need to find AND a fetch.
So yeah, *insert "nope meme".

[KZhang]

I would mull this hand too. but this case feels a little too extreme. Lets make it a little more interesting.

1) What if the Karakas was a Tundra?
2) What if the Karakas was an Island?
3) What if the Karakas was an Arid Mesa?

Would any of this circumstance change your decisions on mulling?

[sdematt]

If an apple were an orange, would that change things?