Thanks, Write in this post your list pleaseOriginally Posted by Rikter
Hello Everyone!
I have more card choices to run by the veterans: I'm interested in Staff of Domination, and Lightning Greaves.
Staff of Domination is interesting because it gives the deck a potential combo win, or alternate - break in case of emergency - win condition. The issue is, I think it might be superfluous given what this deck does, and what it's capable of doing. Is it worth running?
Lightning Greaves has a much more practical argument, and that is that Metalworker dies to just about everything from forked bolt to dismember. Lightning Greaves protects our key threats, and also makes us faster - which seems important to me. Lightning Greaves seems like a no-brainer to me, but I'm still going to ask, is it as powerful as it looks?
I'd like to thank everyone for being so helpful and informative as I learn the ins and outs of this archetype!
Staff of Domination and Lightning Greaves have been staples of the comboey versions for years. Lately though it seems that a lot of those style versions have fallen by the wayside. I personally used to run 3 Greaves and 1 Staff of Domination in all my lists, now I still use the singleton Staff and have cut back to 2 Lightning Greaves and added one Thousand-Year Elixir for the pseudo haste so you can use the Forgemaster/Metalworker/Welder (If you use them) without giving your opponent a chance to respond.
The Staff can have you combo win on turn 2, but it's mana intensive without Metalworker, so a lot of people have stopped using it. Staff of Domination does more things than just combo win, that a lot of players never think about. It's a decent mana sink to gain a life when you have nothing else to do. Also I've won a couple games by untapping a Wurmcoil or Sundering Titan before blockers because the Staff can untap creatures other than Metalworker when you're comboing, most people only think about the combo side of the card.
Lightning Greaves is an amazing card in itself. I can give you a turn 2 win of Metalworker>Blightsteel. It protects cards like Platinum Angel/Emperion from spot removal. Lightning Greaves just has so many uses, both for offensive and defensive parts of the game. I will never play less than two, and although I don't regret taking my 3rd out for the Thousand-Year Elixir, but sometimes I sort of want to put it back in to get that extra little bit of tempo. Also having extra copies can be redundant to help protect more creatures, be used as Forgemaster fodder, or even remain in the hand for Metalworker.
Cockatrice: EMFry
I will do you one better, and post not only the list but the tournament report for the event I just got home from!
LIST
Main
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus
(19)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Trinisphere
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
1x Spine of Ish Sah
(13)
2x Warping Wail
2x Ugin the Spirit Dragon
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Wasteland
2x Vesuva
Board
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Dismember
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Karn Liberated
1x Contagion Engine
1x Duplicant
Overview
This is a pretty stock list, I would say. The main difference is that I always play the 3 Wurmcoils and Hellkite main, which you don't always see, but Wurmcoil is such a house, especially against Eldrazi and Hellkite is a card that can just win the game on it's own against pretty much any deck.Titan and Blightsteel are standard. I favor 2 Warping Wail over 2 of my Trinispheres. Sphere is just such an awful top deck, and is almost always the first card I take out. Wail is incredibly versatile and shores up two of the decks historic weaknesses: being able to efficiently deal with early threats and being able to interact with spells on the stack. The scion token has its uses as well. I choose not to run Staff of Nin, I feel like Domination on its own is enough. Spine is pretty standard, same with 2 Ugin. I don't want to have too many non artifacts, and Ugin can handle 99% of your game 1 troubles, so no additional walkers. I bring Karn in out of the board in anticipation of things like needle and null rod. I don't play Coercive Portal, I don't like it. Some people like to play this as a really grindy deck I think, where Portal is probably good, but that is not my philosophy. Every single card in the deck is a 'must answer' card. Someone told me today after a match that he felt like he absolutely had to answer every single card I played and he was right. All the cards are haymakers, and I am inclined to throw them out there and see if the other guy can deal with it, as opposed to wearing them down over time. I would rather have more actual gas than portal, so no portals, because I tend to close games quickly so its better to have a good card now instead of future cards.
Sideboard is heavy on Revoker, I love this card. Having 3 in against Death and Taxes, Elves, Miracles, Storm and some of the Delver (DRS, Lilly, Jace) lists is huge. The Dismembers are there for Infect, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi and other random decks like Goblins that can cause us problems if we can't answer something like a Lackey on T1 or midrangey decks. Ratchet bomb for Delver and Eldrazi or decks that play weird stuff that can't always wait for an Ugin (See match 2 below), Bridge for Eldrazi and Show and Tell MU. Tsabo's web is good against Death and Taxes, Lands, Infect and some Eldrazi lists. Karn comes in post board, when null rod, needle and such need answering, contagion engine for decks that go wide and the Duplicant for midrangey MU, as well as Eldrazi, Show and Tell or other big creature deck.
I took this list to a 27 person Legacy tournament in NYC, 6 rounds of Swiss before a cut to top 8. The meta was unknown, so I opted for a balanced sideboard. My list is lacking any graveyard hate, although the main deck has strong interactions in Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem and Warping Wail and we can be incredibly fast too. Duplicant, Karn and Bridges are possible board options. I haven't seen a lot of Reanimator lately anyways, I felt like what I had was enough to handle Reanimator and Lands.
Match 1 (0-0) vs 4C Jori En Pyromancer
Game 1: I am on the play, I didn't see very much besides basic Island, Badlands, Lightning Bolt and Jori En Ruin Diver. I dropped two fast Wurmcoil Engines (T2, T4) and road them to victory. Decks that rely on lightning bolt have a difficult time getting Wurmcoil off the table.
Out: 2x Trinisphere, 1x Spine
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Contagion Engine
I am anticipating a wide token/delver based attack and am on the draw. Sphere isn't great, and Engine deals with wide boards better than Spine
Game 2: I got wastelanded turn 1, which really hurt my plan. Because I was a turn short I got my Lodestone Therapied, then my Wurmcoils Therapied, then he stuck Jace. I couldn't get enough mana to play more than 1 creature in a turn, and I just couldn't get through Jace. Clique delivered the death blow. After game two I swapped the Ratchet Bombs with Revokers for DRS and Jace, and Swapped Karn for an Ugin for faster spot removal since he didn't seem to be as wide as I was expecting.
Game 3: I opened with turn 1 chalice on 1, turn 2 and 3 lodestone golems. He tried to fight back with a pyromancer, but couldn't do enough under the spheres, and I take a quick game 3 for the match.
Match 2 (1-0) vs HelmStill
Game 1: I am on the play I see that he is playing Landstill alongside Rest in Peace and Energy Field, so sort of like Enchantress but with Force of Will. We played a long game, he had a critical Force on Spine, and then played out a main deck needle blind calling Ugin. At that point I have no way to actually kill him left in my deck, because I can't get his enchantments off the board to get through damage. He wound up helming me out.
Out: 2x Warping Wail, 2x Trinisphere 2x Grim Monolith
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Karn, 3x Revoker
The games seem like they will go so long that Trinisphere becomes not great and the acceleration of Monolith isn't as important when you have more time to set up. Karn is backup to Ugin, since he recognized game 1 that Ugin was the card that would end the game and needled it. Revoker to shut off helm, Wail is out because he has poor targets.
Game 2: We both sort of durdle for a few turns, building mana. He struck first with RiP/Field but I answered quickly with Karn backed up by Ugin for an easy win, with Lodestone closing it out.
No sideboard changes, and there is 10 minutes left in the round.
Game 3: Starts with less than 10 on the clock, and I open aggressively with Lodestone Golem Revoker (helm). He disenchants the Revoker and I commence to beating with Lodestone Golem. I think I made a critical error here, because on the turn I played lodestone golem I could have run out Ratchet Bomb instead. He got Rest in Peace down and got his helm off. At the time he won my Ratchet Bomb was tapped with 2 counters, and the previous turn I was stuck on spine mana. I needed a land and couldn't get there.
Match 3 (1-1) vs Death and Taxes
Game 1: I am on the play, and we both mull to 5. I open chalice on 1, he plains passes. I play Grim Monolith, he plays Wasteland Thalia. I play land Sundering Titan, he scoops.
Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Metalworker, 2x Monolith, 1x Blightsteel Colossus, 1x Spine of Ish Sah, 1x Kuldotha Forgemaster, 1x Chalice of the Void, 1x Sundering Titan
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 3x Revoker, 3x Dismember, 2x Tsabo's Web, 1x Contagion Engine
Trinisphere is generally pretty bad against Death and Taxes. They don't need to play more than 1 spell per turn, and they have a lot of ways to cheat out extra spells like with SFM and Vial. I take out a chalice if I am on the draw, it's less of a priority for me post board because I have a lot more interaction with their stuff so it's ok for them to play out a bit. Spine comes out because I want to wipe boards with Contagion Engine, which is also cheaper and has the potential to wreck their Aether Vial. Sundering Titan is out because he is expensive and only ever gets one land, Blightsteel is out because he is tough to hardcast when your mana stuff gets revoked and even when you can fetch him they have such cluttered boards that he isn't going to reliably one shot the other guy. One forgemaster comes out because I run fewer targets, and they have so much ability hate that you can't just rely on any one ability so much. For this reason 2x Metalworker comes out, because my curve is so much lower and because I don't need to ramp so much. Monolith also comes out. Basically I lower my curve and diversify my activated abilities. All the cards that come in can take their stuff off the board or seriously disrupt them and mana denial is less effective. I think the inclusions are pretty self explanatory. Revoker is huge here.
Game 2: He opens with plains vial, I open with chalice on 1. He follows this up with SFM (Batterskull), and I respond with wail on my turn. He then proceeds to drop a Serra Avenger and and Jitte. I Tsabo's web, locking down his Karakas and Port and pass, holding up dismember. He equips Jitte on Avenger and I let him attack before I kill it, since he had mana to equip again. Over the next few turns he starts beating me down with Thalia Jitte, but he is holding the counters. I stabilized a bit using glimmerposts, but at this point I am a turn away from him unloading the counters and wrecking me. I top deck a Revoker and shut down the Jitte. He continues to hit me with Thalia for a few more turns before I stick Forgemaster and tinker for Angel. I have been keeping him from totally unloading on me with my Chalice on 1 backed up by Chalice at 2 and Chalice at 5 (didn't want BSkull equipped on Avenger), and I finally hit Ugin, wipe his board and win.
Match 4 (2-1) vs Miracles
Game 1: I am on the play and open Chalice on 1 into Metalworker followed by a Wurmcoil Engine. He has played 2 lands. I start beating and stick a Chalice on 6 and he doesn't draw Jace.
Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Grim Monolith
In: 3x Revokers, 1x Karn
Trinisphere is kind of lackluster, Monolith is unnecessary. I keep the Metalworkers because they can attack and enable more broken things than monolith. I would probably take them out if I had something better, but I don't so it doesn't matter. Revoker is a must for top and Jace, Karn is backup for Ugin.
Game 2: I keep a slowish post hand and am punished for it by getting Cliqued and losing Lodestone. I play Wurmcoil instead and he plays a Moat. I can't hit my hate in time and I get Entreated with no Ugin in sight.
No sideboard changes.
Game 3: I open with turn 2 Lodestone in Metalworker into Ugin. My opponent doesn't have an answer and my guys make short work. There was a little back in forth but I came out hard and stayed in front. Pretty uneventful.
Match 5 (3-1) vs Red and Taxes
Game 1: He falls victim to chalice 1, 3spher into sundering titan. I can see that he has imperial recruiter in his deck, and plateau, although he recruiters for magus of the moon which is strange.
Out: 2x Trinisphere
In: 2x Revoker
Game 2: He came out swinging in this one, following up a Vial with a wasteland on my post and dropping Thalia into Wispmares. I have gotten my revokers down and have been interfering with his vial, and shutting off SoFI but he's hitting hard. I stabilized with a Steel Hellkite and Lodestone Golems but he is on a wide board with multiple Magus of the Moon at this point. I start banging in with the Lodestones, wearing his board down. I finally get rid of the Magi and land Ugin, wiping the board and allowing me to kill him with Hellkite.
Match 6 (4-1) vs Eldrazi
So this is typically a situation where you get to draw in to top 8. I get paired down against a guy who can't draw in, and am forced to play.
Game 1: I am on the draw. He opens with Chalice on 1, I respond with Grim Monolith. He plays a Mimic, I play a second grim Monolith and a Wurmcoil engine. I don't really remember what he did with his last 2 turns because before the Wurmcoil could finish him I went off with Metalworker Staff.
Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Ugin, 4x Chalice of the Void, 1 Titan
In: 3x Dismember, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, 1x Karn, 1x Duplicant
Trinisphere can sometimes get there against Eye but its bag. Chalice always comes out against other chalice decks. 8 Mana is too much for a lightning bolt on a stick or a vanilla 7/10. I put in 6 cards to remove their dudes, plus 2 defensive bridges.
Game 2: He goes temple pass, I go turn 1 Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith, Grim Monolith, Grim Monolith, Kuldotha Forgemaster. He does not have dismember for the forgemaster, and he doesn't have an answer for Blightsteel Colossus either.
Final swiss: 5-1, 1st place. It ended up working out having to play; everyone else drew to 14 points and it turns out it was not possible for me to get breakered out even if I lost.
Top 8 (5-1) vs Death and Taxes
Game 1: I open with cloudpost and get wasted. As I rebuild my mana he Revokers and blind calls candelabra. I follow up with chalice on 1 into Forgemaster. This stalls his attack out, and I find extra artifacts to power out Blightsteel and kill him.
Sideboarding is identical the the first death and taxes match.
Game 2:: He opens on vial, which I revoker. He follows with a Mangara which I wail. He plays a few creatures and I run out Metalworker. He lets me untap with Metalworker, which turns into 10 mana and my hand unloaded (Forgemaster, Greaves, Monolith, Revoker), to his one card with 2 mana up. I activate Forgemaster and in response he flashes in containment priest. I search up contagion engine and decimate his board before killing him with a Wurmcoil.
Top 4 (6-1) vs Eldrazi
Different Eldrazi Deck
Game 1: Game one I open with Tomb and chalice on 0 (I knew what he was on and saw petals earlier). He opens on Eye. I follow with a Trinisphere, which keeps him off of Thought Knot the following turn, then drop Hellkite. He doesn't have dismember and gets killed by the hellkite.
Sideboarding the same as earlier Eldrazi
Game 2: I mull to 6 and keep a mana light hand that is strong on interaction with Bridge, Wail, Dismember and a Monolith. I held off his early threats and stuck a Forgemaster, unfortunately he has Dismember and I fall to thought knot seer backed up by smasher.
No sideboard change
Game 3: I mull to 6 on the play, keeping a hand of City of Traitors, 2x Monolith, Wail, Bridge, Dismember and scrying to the bottom. It may seem greedy but I didn't see wasteland from him, and I can play all my spells. All I need to do is draw a land. I don't draw a land, but I do draw Wurmcoil and I drop a turn 2 Wurmcoil. He has Mimic/ Thought Knot seer and trades them for my wurm. I proceed to not draw any lands, and eventually my Wurm tokens are bested by an Endbringer which drew a ton of extra cards and allowed him to get through.
I finished in 3rd place, and got an nm Bayou.
Overall the list played well. I'm thinking about ditching bridge, and in the future I will probably side out warping wail vs Eldrazi, killing mimic isn't enough to keep it in. I may swap them out for Torpor Orbs, which shut down mimic as well as thought-knot, and have a use vs elves. Eldrazi have a hard time with fast Wurmcoil. The deck hits hard, you can't screw around going long. I just run my combo stuff aggressively, they have no library manipulation that is fast enough to be relevant and if they don't have the Dismember it's a fast game.
Fry's got this pretty well covered, but a few other quick points:
- Greaves is also a nice aggro piece. Turn 1 Greaves into Turn 2 Lodestone is hard for a lot of decks to catch up from. While Greaves is sometimes a shitty topdeck, the same can be said of Chalice, Trinisphere, Monolith, and Metalworker.
- Staff's other modes are also helpful. Against decks like Sneak & Show, being able to tap down the fatty they cheat in can win you the game. And while the card draw is expensive, it can put you over the edge in grindier matchups.
Very nicely done, Rikter! I'm especially impressed considering the number of DnT opponents you ran into; I've found that to be a very skill-testing match. And happy to see you were able to handle Eldrazi pretty well.
Greaves is sweet. I think turn 1 greaves is your scariest opener, tapping out to a turn 1 greaves is a very dangerous thing to do. Also agree on staff, I prefer Domination to Nin because of the ability to lock down creatures, possibly multiple creatures. Plus, it's not unusual to have 10-12 mana available per turn. Staff is worth Forgemastering for, because it can win the game on the spot.
A buddy of mine played death and taxes, so I have a lot of experience against that deck. They have so many ways to attack our game 1 configuration that it can be tough. Warping Wail is a nice card to have in the main deck, because revoker hurts so much. My sideboarding plan for DnT this tournament came together mid round at the event. I would typically leave my MW/FM/GM completely intact, and leave in chalice as well and only sub out 4 or 5 cards. The matches would be very tense still.
Yesterday I went into sideboarding round 3 I decided that since I had 11 cards that were really good against them that I would bring in all 11 and see how that went. When deciding what to cut it was sort of a natural progression, as I started cutting cards off the top, I cut some of the cards that were powering them. More metalworkers than forgemasters because Forgemaster is a great blocker that can fetch up Angel and other hate cards. Tsabo's web and Revoker are viable FM targets. The deck gets a little less explosive, but with the advantage of a lowered curve and a strong disruptive package that doesn't just fold to wasteland/port or Revoker and interacts very strongly with Death and Taxes game plan. I am going to continue with my 11 card package like this, I was really happy with just having a ton of answers for all the irritating things they do, and not being in a position where a single revoker could just lock me out of the game.
I've played 3 competitive matches against Eldrazi, and am currently 2-1. Wurmcoil is such an amazing card against them, I didn't really appreciate it until today but boy is it good. Just, the best y'all. I was so close to 3-0 the other day. I'm not actually sure about bridge in the sideboard. In my first Eldrazi match a few weeks ago Bridge saved the day. My strategy this time around though was to just be greedy about running things out. I think this is evident in my decision to keep a 6 card hand with a single city of traitors for land, but 2 grim monoliths. In place of bridge I could consider Torpor Orb if I want to focus on eldrazi, because it splashes for elves too and it does hinder 8 of the threats in their deck, but I could also tune towards a different Matchup.
OK, so after a lot of research on the archetype, conversations with you guys, and a lot of goldfishing, this is the 75 I landed on:
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Wasteland
1x Vesuva
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Platinum Emperion
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Trinisphere
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Coercive Portal
1x Staff of Domination
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard:
2x Warping Wail
1x Coercive Portal
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Gravedigger’s Cage
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sundering Titan
1x All is Dust
There are still a few points of rationale that I'm not sure about:
- Coercive Portal. Much as this looks like the perfect card to help with this deck's consistency, I'm not sure it's menacing enough to warrant more than 1 spot in the main. The other cards in the flex spots, Lightning Greaves, Ratchet Bomb, Staff of Domination, are much more dangerous. I want my threat density to be relatively high.
- Warping Wail - I do want this card in the main, but I'm not sure where to put it. Ratchet Bomb would probably be the card most likely to be replaced by Warping Wail, but I like the idea of having a good number of cards in the deck that govern the board - Ugin, Ratchet Bomb, Steel Hellkite.
- Kuldotha Foremaster - This one is the most recent point of debate, do I run 3x or 4x? It came down to the fact that Forgemaster is a tutor, it's better library manipulation than a draw engine, and he's a better top deck than Coercive Portal. We're shooting for consistency here, and even if Forgemaster isn't a win-con himself, he can definitely help you get a creature into play that is a win-con.
Solid list except for one big missing card: Blightsteel Colossus
Why did you take it out? When I tutor for a card with Forgemaster I'm going for Blightsteel 8 out of 10 times probably...
Agreed - list looks really solid, but you can probably maximize your Forgemasters' usefulness with better tutor targets. I'd consider -2 Ratchet Bomb for +1 Blightsteel and +1 Spine of Ish Sah. Blightsteel gives us free wins, and Spine is important to deal with random problems you might not be prepared for (e.g. Ensnaring Bridge, Liliana, etc).
I'm intrigued by 4 Wurmcoils. Let us know how that goes!
My choices usually begin with mana-curve, Blightsteel Colossus is just very, very expensive at CMC 12. Wurmcoil Engine is a card that no fair deck in the format wants to face, especially early in the game. Wurmcoil is also a very castable 6 drop that outclasses most of the threats in Eldrazi Aggro.
Spine of Ish Sah is a card I wanted to run, but couldn't really find room for. It's possible that Spine is just a better card in this deck than Coercive portal, but I can't see cutting out Ratchet Bomb. With Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer and Delver of Secrets out there, I feel like Ratchet Bomb will do a lot of work.
I would remove 1 greaves, 1 portal, 2 ratchet bomb for blightsteel, spine and 2x warping wail.
I tried a no blightsteel list, its just too strong a move to not make. I will board it out though.
Spine is good to have at instant speed game one, its saved me so many times.
I like 4x wurmcoil, swapping out a forgemaster fattie for wurmcoil is fine to me. Its a really tough card for many decks to deal with, and turn 2 or 3 is not hard.
Ratchet bomb is nice, but game 1 I go hard on my combos, pre board is your best chance to do that stuff so maximize it. Wail ramps, deals with some problem creatures and can counter. Very versatile, I like it more than bomb main because it is almoat universally good.
I like this actually. I'll make the changes you suggest in the main, figure out the sideboard and try running it this week at the LGS. Thanks everyone for the help!
nice list..side out and side in vs rug,delver deck,ant ecc
Storm/ANT
+3 Revoker
-2 Ugin
-1 Spine
You could also leave spine in and take out staff of domination, replacing it with Karn. The main deck is already pretty hateful towards storm, so I don't do much. The revokers are helpful to shut off LED or Petal, Ugin comes out because he is too slow and his -X is pretty useless against storm. Spine generally comes out because it is less useful against storm, generally you will only be able to hit a land.
RUG Delver
+2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Duplicant
+1 Contagion Engine
+1 Karn
-2 Trinisphere
-1 Spine
-2 Warping Wail
Ratchet bomb comes in because their threats are all 1 and 2 mana, and some have shroud, so you need something that won't target. Duplicant is good because you can kill his goyfs or a bothersome delver and it can block the mongoose. Engine is in because they are likely to be wide, and it gets around mongoose shroud. Karn comes in to handle other bothersome permanents, plus he plays around Null Rod or Ancient Grudge and can get needle off the table. Wail is out because it doesn't kill enough of their threats, spine is out because it can't take on mongoose, trinisphere is out because if I can handle their threats I'm less concerned with them casting spells. DO NOT PLAY DISMEMBER AGAINST DECKS THAT PLAY LIGHTNING BOLT. Can't emphasize this enough, you cannot play dismember against decks that bolt, it speeds the clock up too much. Dismember is best against decks that play swords as their removal, decks that don't attack your life (Infect) or decks like eldrazi where they can't counter it and have no direct damage.
BUG Delver
BUG is an interesting MU. The cards that are most likely to come out are Trinisphere, Wail and Blightsteel, the cards most likely to come in are Ratchet Bomb, Revoker, Duplicant, Dismember and Karn. A lot of it will have to do with how many planeswalkers I see game 1, if they are shardless or not, whether I am on the play or the draw. Karn is a good one because BUG lists will often play Null Rod as artifact hate. Probably my most fluid MU in terms of sideboarding.
Lands
+2 Tsabo's Web
+1 Karn
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Trinisphere
-2 Warping Wail
-1 Ugin
Web really slows them down, as can Bridge. Karn is in for problem permanents and because the games go longer so you can really do a lot of work with him. Trinisphere and Wail come out because they are less effective, 1 Ugin comes out because he is an 8 mana reusable lightning bolt in this MU, generally.
Infect
+2 Ratchet Bomb
+3 Dismember
+2 Tsabo's Web
+1 Contagion Engine
-1 Chalice of the Void
-1 Blightsteel
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Staff of Domination
-4 Metalworker
I lower my curve a lot in this MU. I take out metalworker because I am not ramping as hard, along with a few of the bigger mana cards. Forgemaster is important to keep because he can find Engine or Platinum Angel, plus he blocks better.Mostly I just focus on removing their infect threats. Tsabo's Web can be great because they play so many lands that it hits.
Last edited by Rikter; 03-29-2016 at 03:41 PM.
May i suggest 1 or 2 Temporal Aperture +2 coercive portal instead of 4 coercive portals? It's worse when you're stuck on mana, but it has some advantages, mostly on the mana side since it cheat everything you reveal.
It was a pretty common sight back then, but then its power level dwindled fast with the rise of faster, aggressive aggro lists, and also, good fatties weren't just good enough most of the time, even cheated. Phyrexian colossus just died to everything and was pretty bad anyway. Nowadays with fatties being much much better, i think this card has merit again, as it not only draw an additional card, but does also give mana as long as you reveal a creature in most cases (or goes even with batterskulls), or ugin for the lulz. It costing 2 has some merit also because it allow you to sneak it in early on when sometimes you have nothing to do.
I have some in my binders and i'm gonna sleeves and try 'em.
Last edited by Gheizen64; 03-29-2016 at 04:27 PM.
vs mono white(d&t) side out and side in?
Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Metalworker, 2x Monolith, 1x Blightsteel Colossus, 1x Spine of Ish Sah, 1x Kuldotha Forgemaster, 1x Chalice of the Void, 1x Sundering Titan
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 3x Revoker, 3x Dismember, 2x Tsabo's Web, 1x Contagion Engine
Trinisphere is generally pretty bad against Death and Taxes. They don't need to play more than 1 spell per turn, and they have a lot of ways to cheat out extra spells like with SFM and Vial. I take out a chalice if I am on the draw, it's less of a priority for me post board because I have a lot more interaction with their stuff so it's ok for them to play out a bit. Spine comes out because I want to wipe boards with Contagion Engine, which is also cheaper and has the potential to wreck their Aether Vial. Sundering Titan is out because he is expensive and only ever gets one land, Blightsteel is out because he is tough to hardcast when your mana stuff gets revoked and even when you can fetch him they have such cluttered boards that he isn't going to reliably one shot the other guy. One forgemaster comes out because I run fewer targets, and they have so much ability hate that you can't just rely on any one ability so much. For this reason 2x Metalworker comes out, because my curve is so much lower and because I don't need to ramp so much. 2x Monolith also comes out for the same reason. Basically I lower my curve and diversify my activated abilities. All the cards that come in can take their stuff off the board or seriously disrupt them. The lower curve makes mana denial less effective.
Ratchet bomb wipes their board since they are almost all CMC 2, Revoker hits equipment, SFM and Vial. Dismember can take care of a lot of their stuff, and they SHOULD be boarding out mother of runes. DnT needs to answer your threats with swords, so you can get some life back. Tsabo's web hits port, karakas and wasteland and cantrips...it is very strong. Contagion engine is a board wipe that can also disrupt aether vial.
I have taken to leaving in staff, even with reduced metalworkers just because the tapping can be relevant. I could see removing Staff instead of spine, since they do have stuff you would want to spine.
i test vs eldrazi...difficult matchup...i lose 4 game
Be very aggressive with your combo pieces. Fast wurmcoil engine is a premium hand. Not all the lists play wasteland, so I am very aggressive with city of traitors/monolith hands as well.
Hey everyone! I took MUD to the LGS for the first time, went 2-1. Only 3 rounds unfortunately, but it wasn't a bad night.
I took a nasty loss to BUG in round one - Sower of Temptation is one nasty card. The deck didn't exactly fizzle, but it really didn't put up much of a fight in game 1, game 2 he managed to kill every threat I deployed before destroying Staff of Domination with Abrupt Decay, then drawing into 2 Sower of Temptation - he stole my Kuldotha and my Lodestone Golem. 0-2.
Round 2 against Pox, I mull to 4 looking for land, lose game one. Game 2, I open with chalice, then deploy Grim Monolith-Metalworker - Wurmcoil. Win. Game 3, I open with City-Monolith-Monolith-Lodestone Golem. I beat down with Golem, and never find enough land to untap the Monoliths and cast another threat. Still won though. 2-1
Round 3 was against Infect. I grind her down to 7 with Metalworker attacks in game one, she lands an ink moth and attacks for game before I can put it away. I never drew any threats except Kuldotha, which got FOWed (no cavern). Game 2 and 3 I open with Chalice, and grind out careful wins with Ugin. Yes, Platinum Angel did work in game 2, game 3 we went to time (she was playing a little slow), I won on turn 5 with a Wurmcoil and an active Ugin.
Conclusions: I like the deck! It's a blast to play! There are a few things though:
- Blightsteel is an awful topdeck, he's gotta come out. I drew into him G1 against BUG, and Game 1 against Pox, couldn't cast him either time, lost both games, sided him out all night. I can run a different threat in its place, one that doesn't raise the curve quite so high in a Wasteland-heavy meta. I'll puzzle that one out after I've slept on it.
- I really think Lightning Greaves wants to be a 2 of.
- Bug is a real problem. The deck got off to a rocky start, this is true, but Bug has a lot of angles of attack, how do you guys cope with that matchup?
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