[Primer] Eldrazi Stompy

[Goin Aggro]

Turn 1 kill on the draw :D (don't seem to know how to make it visible here)

http://postimg.org/image/chj55tyhx/

What? You didn't go for it on his turn with SSG? Not even trying to go for the Rub-ins.

[Riehu]

What? You didn't go for it on his turn with SSG? Not even trying to go for the Rub-ins.

That would have been too cruel but I did miss T0 kill there. I don't why I played it so safe :/

[keys]

Technically you can't win until opponent's T2

[Riehu]

Played few leagues with WB Helmed Eldrazi.

3-2

BGW Veteran 0-2 (flooded 1st, no white sources for displacers 2nd game)
Doomsday 2-0
4c Delver 2-0 (Deluge MVP)
RUG Delver (Deluge MVP)
Lands 0-2 (made a mistake costing 2nd game)


3-2

Food Chain 2-1
Lands 1-2 (important to take at least 1 mulligan to get Leyline, won 2nd game with the help of that)
Imperial Taxes 2-1
4c Delver 1-2 (Leyline helped a lot in 2nd game vs Tarmos)
Infect 2-0

For next version replaced Endbringer with 3rd Lotus Petal

5-0

4c Delver 2-1
Goblins 2-1
Merfolk 2-1
Burning Reanimator 2-1
RUG Faeries(?) 2-1




4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Lotus Petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas


3 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Ratchet Bomb

[RhoxWarMonk]

Thanks for the report Riehu -- your 5-0 list is really interesting. I have a few questions for you as a follow up :)

Do you find Endless One is still needed in that list with the Displacers? Did you ever consider splashing for World Breaker?

Was Toxic worth the black splash? I've seen a few decks pack this now and have heard very good reports from it.

Lastly, do you normally play with Factories or Wastelands? If so, did you miss either of them?

[Riehu]

Thanks for the report Riehu -- your 5-0 list is really interesting. I have a few questions for you as a follow up :)

Do you find Endless One is still needed in that list with the Displacers? Did you ever consider splashing for World Breaker?

Was Toxic worth the black splash? I've seen a few decks pack this now and have heard very good reports from it.

Lastly, do you normally play with Factories or Wastelands? If so, did you miss either of them?

Endless One has been (still) surprisingly good. Especially vs Bolts and obviously under Blood Moon. I have played with World Breaker in the list before but found it normally too slow and not really affecting board enough.

Toxic has been definitely worth the splash. I added 1 more Petal as it was stranded in my hand too often. It's not something that is normally needed in the early game so there is time to draw a black source. Though I might be proven wrong when I play more, but 8 sources starts to be quite close to what is mathematically needed for turn 6 onwards (from the CFB article). I just don't want to remove any other land as those are too important.

I do miss Wastelands sometimes, especially vs Infect and mirror and to some extent vs Lands and DNT. Factories not so much as they have been too slow. In the colorless version I defintely play Wastelands instead of Factories.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Endless One has been (still) surprisingly good. Especially vs Bolts and obviously under Blood Moon. I have played with World Breaker in the list before but found it normally too slow and not really affecting board enough.

Toxic has been definitely worth the splash. I added 1 more Petal as it was stranded in my hand too often. It's not something that is normally needed in the early game so there is time to draw a black source. Though I might be proven wrong when I play more, but 8 sources starts to be quite close to what is mathematically needed for turn 6 onwards (from the CFB article). I just don't want to remove any other land as those are too important.

I do miss Wastelands sometimes, especially vs Infect and mirror and to some extent vs Lands and DNT. Factories not so much as they have been too slow. In the colorless version I defintely play Wastelands instead of Factories.

Thank you kindly, I think I'll pick up a few Toxic Deluge and give that splash a try. Been trying to make the green splash work but this might be a better alternative. So far, I've had the most success with the colorless version but been trying to branch out a little as well and help refine this decktype, which is quickly becoming one of my favorites to play here.

Have you been liking the Helm/LotV combo in the SB? What matchups do you bring it in against? I can see it against Lands and combo like Show and Tell, Reanimator or Dredge --- does it have any other uses?

[Riehu]

Thank you kindly, I think I'll pick up a few Toxic Deluge and give that splash a try. Been trying to make the green splash work but this might be a better alternative. So far, I've had the most success with the colorless version but been trying to branch out a little as well and help refine this decktype, which is quickly becoming one of my favorites to play here.

Have you been liking the Helm/LotV combo in the SB? What matchups do you bring it in against? I can see it against Lands and combo like Show and Tell, Reanimator or Dredge --- does it have any other uses?

I have most probably sideboarded it too often vs many kinds of decks. It's been funny to see that I have seen more sideboard cards vs Helm than before. Those three definitely I bring it in. I have won two games with it vs Shardless too as the Leylines are good already and I need a way to dodge all the Abrupt Decays. With Helmed version (colorless or BW) I'm 3-2 in matches currently. Obviously too early to say how the matchup actually is but it has felt better.

I'll start taking notes of how I sideboard so we can get that discussion going at some point.

Tried to green splash in GW, GB and GR for some matches but I really feel BW is the best combination due to displacers.

I have had most success with colorless version too, but most of that came in the beginning like a month ago and few days ago. But I just feel like BW gives me the best tools.

[iostream]

Leyline/Helm in my view, is an extremely high-variance way to turn around matchups which we cannot address in any other way with any other tools. Consider the following:

1) having Leyline in the opener without Helm is awkward versus decks where the Leyline itself is not very good since we have no way to find Helm.
2) Helm in an opener without a Leyline is almost as bad as a mulligan since Leyline is nearly uncastable.
3) decks where we would want the combo often side in countermeasures. For instance, you can bet that Lands is bringing in all their Grips versus us since know to expect Needles, Leyline, RiP, Chalice on 2, etc. So they can break the combo even if they don't know anything about Helm.
4) the whole package costs half of our entire sideboard

It's nice that people are managing to win games with it, but really this should be the option of last resort, once we are certain that there is no better plan versus grindy decks that abuse the graveyard. (By the way, I seriously hope people are not trying to play the combo in matchups where Leyline itself has no impact on the game.)

Is there no other way we can think of to help these matchups?

[iostream]

2 Seal of Cleansing

Nice! Any feelings about this versus Disenchant? I like being able to tap out more often, but you do sometimes get screwed by removal on the Seal prior to the equipment/hate piece hitting the battlefield.

[Riehu]

Leyline/Helm in my view, is an extremely high-variance way to turn around matchups which we cannot address in any other way with any other tools. Consider the following:

1) having Leyline in the opener without Helm is awkward versus decks where the Leyline itself is not very good since we have no way to find Helm.
2) Helm in an opener without a Leyline is almost as bad as a mulligan since Leyline is nearly uncastable.
3) decks where we would want the combo often side in countermeasures. For instance, you can bet that Lands is bringing in all their Grips versus us since know to expect Needles, Leyline, RiP, Chalice on 2, etc. So they can break the combo even if they don't know anything about Helm.
4) the whole package costs half of our entire sideboard

It's nice that people are managing to win games with it, but really this should be the option of last resort, once we are certain that there is no better plan versus grindy decks that abuse the graveyard. (By the way, I seriously hope people are not trying to play the combo in matchups where Leyline itself has no impact on the game.)

Is there no other way we can think of to help these matchups?

1) Very true.
2) In WB version it can happen (and has happened) but it's awkward I admit.
3) Vs Lands, ANT and Reanimator Leyline itself is very good. It's good vs Shardless and some versions of Delver decks.
4) I have had good experiences with just Leyline in general with earlier versions too.

Leyline I don't doubt, Helms I will see how they do eventually. I have tried a lot of different options and will keep doing so. But so far it has felt good.

[Barook]

The BW list certainly looks interesting. I'm going to test that next. How have the Revokers been for you so far, Riehu?

[Riehu]

The BW list certainly looks interesting. I'm going to test that next. How have the Revokers been for you so far, Riehu?

Quite helpful. Drawing in removal at least. 1st turn DRS is quite annoying so it's been nice to have had some answer to that to slow down the opponent. I keep trying those on a regular basis as I still have mixed feelings at times.

Let me know how it goes and please take a note of how you sideboard so we can discuss later.

[Riehu]

Nice! Any feelings about this versus Disenchant? I like being able to tap out more often, but you do sometimes get screwed by removal on the Seal prior to the equipment/hate piece hitting the battlefield.

Yes that happens sometimes but more times I don't want to keep mana open for Blood Moon etc effects.

[Goin Aggro]

Technically you can't win until opponent's T2

Opponent drew with grisel though. 100% make that draw kill them.

[iostream]

1) Very true.
2) In WB version it can happen (and has happened) but it's awkward I admit.
3) Vs Lands, ANT and Reanimator Leyline itself is very good. It's good vs Shardless and some versions of Delver decks.
4) I have had good experiences with just Leyline in general with earlier versions too.

Leyline I don't doubt, Helms I will see how they do eventually. I have tried a lot of different options and will keep doing so. But so far it has felt good.

I agree that Leyline's effect is good, but why Leyline rather than RiP in the WB version of this deck? Do you think it's generically better than RiP?

[Riehu]

I agree that Leyline's effect is good, but why Leyline rather than RiP in the WB version of this deck? Do you think it's generically better than RiP?

RiP would need more white sources and it dies to Abrupt Decay. I tried RiP too but I can't make the mana work as I don't like Mox Diamonds at all.

[Barook]

I agree that Leyline's effect is good, but why Leyline rather than RiP in the WB version of this deck? Do you think it's generically better than RiP?

I tried RiP/Helm combo yesterday. While RiP is good, but the extra mana (especially white) and being a legit Decay target aren't so hot.

Quite helpful. Drawing in removal at least. 1st turn DRS is quite annoying so it's been nice to have had some answer to that to slow down the opponent. I keep trying those on a regular basis as I still have mixed feelings at times.

That doesn't sound very convincing. Have you considered other Eldrazi in that slot? Matter Reshaper? Kozilek's Shrieker? Wasteland Strangler? Strangler in particular has cute interactions with Displacer and Leyline of the Void. Just food for thought.

[Holly]

Good evening everyone,
my schedule is finally freeing up slowly, updated the Primer with Blade-decks & Goblins.
What matchups should I do next?

Also planning on adding some opening hands to discuss, to help newer players with the difficult task whether to mulligan or keep. But have to think through how to properly do it as there are still way to many different decklists..

[funkymankevx]

I tried RiP/Helm combo yesterday. While RiP is good, but the extra mana (especially white) and being a legit Decay target aren't so hot.

That doesn't sound very convincing. Have you considered other Eldrazi in that slot? Matter Reshaper? Kozilek's Shrieker? Wasteland Strangler? Strangler in particular has cute interactions with Displacer and Leyline of the Void. Just food for thought.

I don't think Strangler interacts with Displacer since the card comes back to the battlefield before it resolves?