All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Amusing. I like the idea of Strip Mine in Lands.

The unban list is talk to death. Commonly accepted answers are Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Goblin Recruiter. I would say that's the order I would unban them in too.

[Chatto]

Amusing. I like the idea of Strip Mine in Lands.

Lol, that would be insane.

[Finn]

We are in the midst of a shift. This seems like it would be exactly the wrong time to unban anything.

Here's hoisting a pint to nothing.

[Dice_Box]

I can agree to that. At this point I see no reason for change anyway. If anything right now is the most exciting time to play legacy since 2011. (imo)

[Chatto]

I wholeheartly agree, but it is WotC we're talking about here

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Better Nerf Ire...wait wrong game.

Unban/ban nothing, without many big tournaments, it's gonna take much longer to see how things shake out in legacy imo.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

So when are they going to unban ridiculous cards like Earthcraft and Mind Twist? I'm pretty sure 90+% of legacy players think these two should be unbanned. It is ridiculous that these two cards are on the banlist. Have they not learned their lesson from black vise and land tax?


Anyways, on a different note, what do you think about Survival of the Fittest getting unbanned? I actually think it is worth considering because a. Creature based decks are already pretty consistent and I personally would only play Survival in a deck built around it(like Birthing Pod in modern) which leads to point b. How good is building around a card that dies to commonly played hate and removal like Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace? Not saying a toolbox/gy deck with SotF would be bad but it would't be broken either IMO. It'd probably just add a unique deck to legacy which is always good.

Edit: So apparently the main scare about SotF involves synergy with the graveyard(vengevine) Well along with Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage etc. solve that problem. In addition, Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle(both commonly played) stop SotF.

[Fox]

So when are they going to unban ridiculous cards like Earthcraft and Mind Twist? I'm pretty sure 90+% of legacy players think these two should be unbanned. It is ridiculous that these two cards are on the banlist. Have they not learned their lesson from black vise and land tax?

No thanks on the Earthcraft front, not when we're printing token factories like Young Pyro and Monastery Mentor. I'm still not convinced that adding in the summoning sickness clause with Cryptolith Rite ever makes me want to see that nonsense hit the table. Mind Twist is pretty harmless though.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

No thanks on the Earthcraft front, not when we're printing token factories like Young Pyro and Monastery Mentor. I'm still not convinced that adding in the summoning sickness clause with Cryptolith Rite ever makes me want to see that nonsense hit the table. Mind Twist is pretty harmless though.

Why not just win with the pyro/mentor tokens? So you play your army in a can, play a bunch of spells, play earthcraft, and then WHAT? Fireball? Mindtwist?^^I cant see it...

[Fox]

Why not just win with the pyro/mentor tokens? So you play your army in a can, play a bunch of spells, play earthcraft, and then WHAT? Fireball? Mindtwist?^^I cant see it...

Effectively 0 cost cantrip chaining would be the issue with legacy playable creatures, through summoning sickness. Should probably have to work a little harder for that effect, and there is already Jeskai Ascendancy, Splinter Twin, Pyromancer Ascension/Harness the Storm. There is a difference in playability of pyro/mentor and Squirrel Nest.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

0 cost cantrip chaning at the cost of a green splash and a basic Island in play and running a card that is useless in multiples and is not instant speed? Not to mention that it is useless without a token producer and the age-old question of "what to take out?" Also, you'd have to run more cantrips to make the synergy worthwhile(maxing out on ponders) I think you are overrating this card in a cantrips deck. Also with the recent Eldrazi deck, running lots of cantrips is not as good as it used to be.


Edit: also, unbanning cards like these, even if they turn out to be a little too good, is not a big deal because they are clearly not good enough to trash the format until the next ban announcement where they can be banned if needed.

[hymnyou]

#freemindtwist

[Dice_Box]

Dam. The thing is 40 bucks. I hope they reprint it if they unban it.

The idea of free Cantrips is amusing but I just do not know if the hoops you would jump through and the space taken up are worth a cute interaction.

[Lemnear]

So when are they going to unban ridiculous cards like Earthcraft and Mind Twist? I'm pretty sure 90+% of legacy players think these two should be unbanned. It is ridiculous that these two cards are on the banlist. Have they not learned their lesson from black vise and land tax?

WotCs usual prisoner-exchange procedure is the reason

Anyways, on a different note, what do you think about Survival of the Fittest getting unbanned? I actually think it is worth considering because a. Creature based decks are already pretty consistent and I personally would only play Survival in a deck built around it(like Birthing Pod in modern) which leads to point b. How good is building around a card that dies to commonly played hate and removal like Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace? Not saying a toolbox/gy deck with SotF would be bad but it would't be broken either IMO. It'd probably just add a unique deck to legacy which is always good.

Edit: So apparently the main scare about SotF involves synergy with the graveyard(vengevine) Well along with Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage etc. solve that problem. In addition, Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle(both commonly played) stop SotF.

According to that logic we can unban Necropotence, Yawgmoths Bargain and Yawgmoths Will too. Don't you get how ridiculous it is to argue that cards are ok, simply if countermeasures exist in the cardpool?

You also miss that Survival reigned supreme despite Spell Snare and all the Extraction/yardhate effects around, due to the fact that it adds a combo effect to creature decks and if the combo-part is hated out, you still have to deal with the creatures themselves. Good luck sitting on your Surgical Extraction against opposing vengevines if your opponent simply tutors for Tarmogoyfs back-to-back instead. Go decay the Survical after your opponent dropped the Emrakul/Griselbrand/Iona & Retainer combo.

[Gheizen64]

Survival is a deck that is extremely well positioned vs miracles. Unbanning it now could be absolutely risky for the meta considering eldrazi were just printed and the meta is consistently in flux.

Survival is a card that is getting worse with every set (the best thing to do with it is still chaining vengevines, while the rest of the formats got cards like terminus, DRS, sfm+batterskull, young pyromancer/mentor, AD, the whole lands package etc...) so eventually it'll get to a point where it's just another engine. Well, unless they print something like a 0 mana madness emrakul in the next set.

I'd really, really like a Survival variant for red though. Something like a red survival that let you discard an artifact for drawing multiple cards, or create tokens.

[Lemnear]

Survival is a deck that is extremely well positioned vs miracles. Unbanning it now could be absolutely risky for the meta considering eldrazi were just printed and the meta is consistently in flux.

Survival is a card that is getting worse with every set (the best thing to do with it is still chaining vengevines, while the rest of the formats got cards like terminus, DRS, sfm+batterskull, young pyromancer/mentor, AD, the whole lands package etc...) so eventually it'll get to a point where it's just another engine. Well, unless they print something like a 0 mana madness emrakul in the next set.

I'd really, really like a Survival variant for red though. Something like a red survival that let you discard an artifact for drawing multiple cards, or create tokens.

Well there is a blue "Survival" for artifacts as you know and green still has Evolutionary Leap, Fauna Shaman, GSZ and the like as alternatives to Survival.

I disagree with the idea that Survival gets "wors" with each set given all WitC prints are creatures these days. You wanna tell me that Survival got "worse" by printing DRS, TNN, etc after it's ban?

[Gheizen64]

Well there is a blue "Survival" for artifacts as you know and green still has Evolutionary Leap, Fauna Shaman, GSZ and the like as alternatives to Survival.

I disagree with the idea that Survival gets "wors" with each set given all WitC prints are creatures these days. You wanna tell me that Survival got "worse" by printing DRS, TNN, etc after it's ban?

A card disadvantage tutor for fair creatures that require you to play 20+ creatures as well? Why would anyone play that If not for grave /madness abuse like TnT Did first with welder + bots and vengevival second with vengevine and retainer. GSZ is better If u just wanna do fair stuff with it since it's not card nor mana disadvantage plus it can work as an accellerant

Artificer's intuition can loot bots but not get them, plus it's blue and at that point i'd rather play baby jace or looter en-kor.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

After thinking about it, I realized that a problem may occur that SotF and combos it enables might be put into almost every creature deck in legacy. This may or may not be a problem because Brainstorm and force of will similarly are put in every blue deck, but it seems unnecessary to unban a card like this if it is just going to be played in all the creature decks and won't create a new archetype. Unless you are looking to shake up the meta by strengthening one archetype, which is not needed right now because Eldrazi is already doing that. But in the future if the format is looking stale, SotF is a good candidate to unban.

On the other hand Earthcraft and Mind Twist are either going to do nothing(black vise) or will be put into a deck or two. Either way I doubt unbanning these two will do very much change to the metagame. They are ridiculous on the same list with cards such as Tolarian Academy and Ancestral Recall.

[maharis]

I disagree with the idea that Survival gets "wors" with each set given all WitC prints are creatures these days. You wanna tell me that Survival got "worse" by printing DRS, TNN, etc after it's ban?

I don't think Survival is fast enough to just play a fair game... if you are doing the "fair game with oops I win" idea, you probably decide that based on whether or not you have a Survival in play. In other words, the increased presence of solid, efficient creatures like DRS and TNN doesn't necessarily make Survival better, because in that kind of deck, the payoff dropping a two-mana enchantment then tutoring for one of them isn't really there compared to if you just put more cantrips or Eladamri's Call in your deck or something, or used that enchantment to untap and win the game.

Survival is a card that is getting worse with every set (the best thing to do with it is still chaining vengevines, while the rest of the formats got cards like terminus, DRS, sfm+batterskull, young pyromancer/mentor, AD, the whole lands package etc...) so eventually it'll get to a point where it's just another engine. Well, unless they print something like a 0 mana madness emrakul in the next set.

Right now, I wonder if the best thing to do with it is Retainers -> Griselbrand. Vengevines are pretty good of course, but hardly game over given Terminus, plus you have to play lots of Rootwallas and stuff that aren't as good on their own compared to the compactness of the Retainers combo.

I agree with the rest of this post though. Specifically, Batterskull, which didn't exist when SotF was banned, makes SFM into a similarly positioned two-mana threat while freeing up deck construction constraints. You have to be prepared to lose the game on turn 2 or 3 in Legacy, and I don't think SotF is more dangerous than other cards currently banned... AND it has the potential to be a value engine in addition to combo enabler. GSZ is definitely comparable and probably better in some ways and that card is hardly broken.

After thinking about it, I realized that a problem may occur that SotF and combos it enables might be put into almost every creature deck in legacy. This may or may not be a problem because Brainstorm and force of will similarly are put in every blue deck, but it seems unnecessary to unban a card like this if it is just going to be played in all the creature decks and won't create a new archetype..

I don't think that's a risk. The opportunity cost of playing 4 Survival + the combo package is pretty high considering the effect on opening hands/mulligans to just say "I'll jam it into Jund/Maverick/BUG." There's an argument to play like 2 survival in Maverick for value when you draw late dorks, but again, better or worse than GSZ? Or just jamming Depths/Stage to use with your Knights.

[Fox]

0 cost cantrip chaning at the cost of a green splash and a basic Island in play and running a card that is useless in multiples and is not instant speed? Not to mention that it is useless without a token producer and the age-old question of "what to take out?" Also, you'd have to run more cantrips to make the synergy worthwhile(maxing out on ponders) I think you are overrating this card in a cantrips deck.

It's cantrips, and it's also SDT and infinity prowess triggers. Splinter Twin-esque "look I went infinite 'cause I have 2 cards" combos aren't really what magic is about; it's not quite as bad as Flash + Protean Hulk, but ideologically they're about on the same level. Unlike Twin you don't have to run patently bad creatures and multiple copies of local enchantments (auras); you simply look up the 4color counter/top/mentor/drs (DeMentor to those who keep up with brainstorm show) lists add in 2-3x Enlightened Tutors and 1x Earthcraft.

Will it break the format, almost certainly not...but it is a pretty mindless wincon that requires no sequencing [cards won't sit in hand waiting for discard spell], doesn't use the graveyard, and doesn't require any real change to existing decks to incorporate a win button.

Edit: the card is also terribly templated in that it doesn't bestow the ability onto a creature like Cryptolith Rite does. The most significant part of that it summoning sickness, but there are more nuanced interactions that are missed. This includes things like nonfunctional hate cards (like Cursed Totem), and no need to correctly layer Earthcraft vs other enchantments (like Humility). There would need to be substantial errata on the wording of this card, and that's what Cryptolith Rite did - it unbanned the Earthcraft that should be....tolerated as a part of Legacy (even though the idea of the card should have never been floated /opinion). I am very happy with the idea of keeping Earthcraft a special banlist with Ante cards just based on "it was a bad idea" rather than ability to ruin the meta of a format.