Originally Posted by Dissection
If you want something cute with Predict, and WW is a problem, Set Adrift is probably more up your alley =P
I was watching you guys stream with that a month or so ago actually, it's a spicy one! My only complaints are sorcery speed, messes with Snapcaster and close to uncastable in the first few turns. Wear//Tear deals with almost everything annoying anyway while Snaps pester Jaces and Lilis.
I am not the strongest advocate of it of course =P. I personally had issues with the card, many of which you listed above. But since we're listing nonsense cards anyway =P.
In any case, it's possible that the card or things like Unexpectedly Absent are viable options, but I'd rather play something like CJ (if you have access to double plains) or MD w//t as you have been, in this scenario.
Hello Miracles players! Lurker here. Looking forward to commenting and reading awesome posts from all you control junkies. :)
Quick question if I can. How do people here feel about supreme verdict in the sideboard right now? Does it make sense if Mentor is main deck? Also, what about Venser? Thanks!
Last edited by Echinoderm; 04-01-2016 at 06:35 PM.
Echinoderm is the common name given to any member of the Phylum Echinodermata.
Consider making powerful additions to your legacy deck by including the following cards.
http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/im...3-69441300.jpg
http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/im...0-27931100.jpg
Verdict/no Verdict is all preference. I used to play it, but personally I think it's too slow. There are few metas where it's good, but even in those metas I wouldn't pick it over something else (that may or may not do a similar thing.)
We're really good against creature decks already.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Well..., you could count Goblins, Merfolk, and Eldrazi as creature decks, DnT to certain extent. They all run tons of creatures. Hence, a blanket statement really good against creature decks seems vague to me.
There's nothing slow about Verdict, unless you are comparing it against instant speed Terminus, in that context.
Pro:
1. get pass all counters
2. easier to flashback than Terminus
3. requires no floating on top of library to setup
4. not vulnerable to opponent responding to miracles trigger (clique away, deny fetch for White mana source).
5. another CMC 4 to float for CB, if you suspect opponent will cast Jace, Sneak Attack....
Con:
1. difficult to cast against decks running Port, i.e. DnT
2. sorcery speed, dead card against Lands
3. requires Double White source, some Miracles builds have issue producing it.
Ironically the uncounterability is great vs blue aggro-control (i.e. Delvers) but they also tend to play mana denial making 1WWU a huge liability.
The number of Warping Veils in the meta might be very determining for the viability of Supreme Verdict.
On a related note I've seen a few Envelops in sideboards, and now a strict upgrade will become available: Invasive Surgery.
How does Invasive Surgery interact with Supreme Verdict? I suppose the delirium part will take place even though the spell can't be countered? Not a huge deal, since SV will likely be a one-off, so this will mostly be relevant for snap->flashback and information for the opponent. On second thought SV is on the stack when IS resolves, and thus it can't be exiled?
Last edited by ozimek; 04-05-2016 at 03:37 AM.
I thought red font is for admin. Anyway, why would you want to cast Terminus on turn 2? Empty Goblin tokens? Must kill asap creature like Dark Confidant? It's rare to cast it on turn 2 or turn 3 without setup, even if you happen to draw it, I am not even sure you should just intuitively fire off.
Indestructible? Isn't that what StP is for? If your opponent is putting Blightsteel into play, I feel you have a bigger problem like Chalice on 1. Boros Charm is mostly Modern, nop, don't see how this would matter.
Rulings
4/8/2016 Invasive Surgery’s delirium ability isn’t checked until after the sorcery spell has been countered. If that spell is put into your graveyard, it will be counted.
Re: Supreme Verdict
Terminus is often better than Supreme Verdict, but we allready play 4.
I want to add to the list of pros/cons.
Supreme Verdict actually kill all of their creatures and not just put them back in their deck. This can sometimes be a minor downside i.e graveyard-candy for Gurmag Angler, Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Eternal Witness etc but also re-buy of your own creatures. Most of the time it's a very good permanent answer to decks with GSZ or Shardless Agent for example. In matchups where the games tend to go on for many turns this is very relevant and our superior filtering with cantrips is negated by a Jund deck drawing gas every turn. To clarify; Putting creatures on the bottom of their library is canceled after a fetchland activation or a green sun's zenith.
Supreme Verdict is a blue pitch-card to FoW. This is huge in some matchups (like the mirror) as you don't want to die to Monastery Mentor but the cards that answers him are terrible in the CB/Jace battle. Supreme Verdict is sometimes worse against ETA but beeing uncounterable, un-cliqueable and blue makes up for it imo. Venser still gets you but we can't have everything.
In other matchups you want to have a pitch-card for their turn1 chalice of the void or Aether Vial in which case Supreme Verdict beeing a 4drop sometimes is the correct card to pitch. Consider a scenario where you have a hand of Fow, Supreme Verdict, Stoneforge mystic, Ponder and lands. If your Eldrazi Opponent cast turn 1 Grim Monolith into turn 2 Endbringer then Fow pitch SV is great and Stoneforge can (maybe) go the distance. If on the other hand your opponent lead with a bunch of creatures you can save it for later. Miracles is often the reactive deck in a match but it's important to identify that you sometimes can be the aggressor in which case Force of Will is a great tempo card. For these scenarios you don't want a sweeper which makes Supreme Verdict a perfect card to have around. Another example is Merfolk. I gladly trade any 2 cards in hand to stop their COTV on 1 or to get Batterskull going.
The "con" of Supreme Verdict beeing harder to cast due to the WW in it's casting cost is correct but not allways relevant. The upside of beeing immune to flusterstorm, spell pierce, daze, envelop and vendilion clique (sometimes, depending on when it's cast ofc) makes up for it imo. It's often OK to go Island, Plains, Island, Tundra->Supreme Verdict and have Tundra Wastelanded. Wasteland is still annoying but very much less so if there is no creature on the other side of the table. The more creatures in play on the other side the better obviously SV gets. It's still great if they play only 1-2 creatures and sandbag a bunch of disruption because then you can try to set up CB/top and KNOW that you will kill their board turn4. This is a very different tactical advantage compared to terminus/stp because more often than not it's correct to kill the creature right away as you don't know how many turns you have to turn the tables. It's not unheard of that your opponent let your CB resolve and save their countermagic for Terminus, in which case you just win on the spot. Or your opponent put an extra treath on the board on their "final" turn to play around STP and save the FoW for terminus.
One minor thing when comparing Supreme Verdict to Terminus is that it's less relitant on Brainstorm to set up. This is important in matchups vs Eldrazi and Merfolk because of Chalice of the Void. Brainstorm is probably the best card in our deck but stressing it even further is a recipe for disaster. Supreme Verdict becomes better compared to Terminus the worse your filtering gets. And it will get worse. Even though Ponder is a great card I often side two of them out just because of how devastating COTV is.
How are you guys handling games against Eldrazi?
Have been struggling quite a bit against them. Am considering:
1) Playing 1-2 Wear/Tear main
2) Moving back to a 2x Entreat version
G1 is a nightmare. I don't think it gets much better whether you MD W/T or not. G2 and 3 gets better because of W/T in your SB + Mentor if you have it + Blood Moon + Moat if you can afford one. Any of those is very strong on its own already, even stronger when used together.
I've always maintained that the best Miracles lists run at least 1 ETA. This current meta definitely amplifies that assertion.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
One Wear / Tear main is golden, that I can assure you. And by now, probably some other people will, too. I still think the MU stands and falls with Chalice 1, so getting rid of that should be your top priority. Without Chalice you should be able to stall long enough to get your hate (Blood Moon, Moat, etc.) going and lock the game up. If Chalice sticks, you have to to play more aggressive into your hatepieces and lock the game with a Terminus before / after that. Obv, that's a bit harder with your cantrips locked up.
Edit: Cutthroat Casual is right, ETA is at it's best right now. I don't think Mentor is that good, most players have adjusted.
If you want to md wear // tear you may instead md engineered explosives and even one academy ruins (without karakas and cavern of souls, still with 21 lands) to do it again and again. Explosives kill anything between 0 and 3 cmc.
Anyway, still think that council's is the best generic answer, because you don't need to change your manabase to do it one more time. I don't like md Wear // Tear because it doesn't answer creatures nor planeswalkers...
Personally, I've gone completely out to left field to play the old RIP/Helm version of the deck, which should in theory be able to lock the Eldrazi out of attacking and be a little more resilient to Chalice@1. I haven't, in practice, actually had the chance to jam any games against the intended target. I can't say whether it really works or not, but the idea seems sound to me.
That is, if playing RIP/Helm can technically be considered "sound" at all, but on this question I care little. I love slamming enchantments, and Enlightened Tutor is a very fun way to control the top card of the library with Counterbalance.
Mentor is a very strong SB card. I don't believe he's good in the MD though. In G1s, we want to be more controlling since it's the basis of our deck, and he doesn't allow us to do that. Post-board games are when we adjust our strategy. If you want to play Mentor MB, you probably shouldn't be playing Miracles, but rather some sort of Stoneblade/Esper Mentor variant.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
Sorry, changed to blue, and will be more disciplined with my quoting going forward. Thanks for pointing that out.
On the draw on turn two you are likely getting a 2 for 1 against aggressive decks. Doesn't come up very often, admittedly. Turn 3 vs. turn 4 is still very significant.
I have taken care of many a Marit Lage token with Terminus. Obv., Terminus is not in the deck after sideboarding vs lands, though. Swords is better in most situations against a single fatty, but if e.g. vs. lands giving them 20 life can be a huge liability if you don't have the Loam engine shut down.
Are you thinking Supreme Verdict is mostly a sideboard card? I have seen maindecks with a 3/1 split, and I would never do that. I might consider it for the SB, but it would compete with Moat for that slot. The price tag on a Moat is a fair concern, of course, but wouldn't Moat be superior in most non-delver situations?
Regarding the discussion of increasing threat density in the opponent's deck with Terminus, I think that is a very minor issue. Our cards (especially the finishers) become much more powerful in the late game, whereas most small creatures become less threatening. Dryad Arbor is extremely pesky though, as it is so easy to bring back with a fetch land.
Hey all, Miracles is a deck I long wanted to build. However, half of our legacy tournaments have 40 minutes/round limit due to time constraints. Is it realistically possible with this deck to consistently finish 2-3 games within this time? I suppose Monastery Mentor build is more suitable in such case?
We run 45 minute rounds. I've drawn matches two times in the last six months.
I actually find it to be beneficial, as the less amount of time make you focus on being quick. Also, it means you actually have to pay attention to your opponent, and as such, you can (politely) ask them to speed up, if they are taking an unreasonable amount of time.
You could also consider the plan of winning a long game 1, and not having time to finish game 2.
I've been playing RIP/Helm, and there are a number of free wins you can get with this version that can also speed play considerably. It's so weird compared to the normal Miracles, though, that I'm not sure they should really be discussed in the same thread.
hi all, have picked up again miracles after some time and wanted to try the legend build. I have played the following list yesterday in a game night and won against painter 2-0, the mirror 2-0 and lost to BUG shardless 2-1. Shardless was a tight game but lost as he completely destroyed my hand on the draw in the final game with t1 thoughtseize, t2 hymm, t3 liliana, and then shardless goyf etc. My starting hand was flooded strand, volcanic, island, 2x stp, 1 brainstorm, counterspell and flooded in the first three draws. I am quite happy with the build but would appreciate some inputs. I am not sure about the 2nd ETA and the manabase (I have cut cavern as it can really shine in some instances but overall I think it makes the mana a bit awkward I added one fetch more instead of a plains or 5th island as I find it is important to have another way to shuffle without ponder).
Main
2 Arid Mesa
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
4 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Tundra
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Containment Priest
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote