@Thereisnocomp2: There's no reason to be salty.
Finished my BW League run 3-2 after beating R4 Burn and R5 Miracles. Before I enter another league, I want discuss mana base choices first.
Note that these are rounded percentages and it doesn't take mulligans into account, so it's just an rough estimate. T0 means your starting 7, T1 8 cards (on the draw or actual T2 on the play). I'll just leave the data up uncommented first since I don't the time to go in-depth right now. We'll need to discuss what turn should be our cutting point.
1) how to balance specific legendary lands (I count City as "legendary" land since you rarely want to draw a second copy):
Chance to draw a specific "legendary" land (Karakas, Eye, City, Urborg) with 3 copies in the deck: Draw 1x vs Draw 2x
Chance to draw a specific "legendary" land (Karakas, Eye, City, Urborg) with 2 copies in the deck: Draw 1x vs Draw 2x
Chance to draw a specific "legendary" land (Karakas, Eye, City, Urborg) with 1 copy in the deck: Draw 1x
2) Chance to draw at least one Urborg in combination with Eye:
Eye/Urborg split: 2/1 vs 2/2 vs 3/1 vs 3/2
3) Chance to draw at least one land that benefits from Urborg (Eye or Ancient Tomb):
2x Urborg: 6 lands (4 Tombs/2 Eyes) vs 7 lands (4 Tombs/3 Eyes)
1x Urborg: 6 lands (4 Tombs/2 Eyes) vs 7 lands (4 Tombs/3 Eyes)
4) Chance to "go broken" with Eye (at least two 2-power drops - Mimic or Endless One - on your T1):
3 Eyes vs 2 Eyes
5) Chance to a certain source of mana. Since the current BW list has 19 colorless sources, I'll use that as starting point and go down from there up to 4 sources.
Chances from 4-19 mana sources of a specific color per turn
Especially 5) should make it easier to determine the "right" amount of color based on the turn you want to play said cards. Note that the numbers slightly differ from the CFB mana article due to mulligan decisions not taken into account, but those numbers should be good enough.
If you want anything else modelled, either let me know or do it yourself in Magic Workstation --> Statistics --> Deep Analysis
Happy discussion!
I really like the Displacer from the white version, but I still prefer having Wastelands in. GU 12-post is a bad match up for non-Wasteland versions, though it is a deck that is not normally seen.
@Barook: Nice Work!
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I still tinker with different builds, since the meta adapts and Eldrazi should follow it to survive the upcoming Midrange Wars (we already see brews with Leyline+Helm, or the cut of Thorns for Maindeck Removal etc.).
Currently i switch between a Devoid.build and the proven gW.build:
"Eldrazi Devoid Pile":
Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
3x Corrupted Crossroads
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Karakas
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creature (21)
2x Bearer of Silence
3x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Eldrazi Mimic
3x Endless One
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
1x World Breaker
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Lotus Petal
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Instant (6)
3x Dismember
3x Warping Wail
Sideboard (15)
2x All Is Dust
2x Bojuka Bog
1x Duplicant
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Wastes
Lands/Mana: Since i tested Devoid, i chosed Corrupted Crossroads over Mishra. Wastelands is a Trap here because you will need Mana for Bearer, Breaker, Displacer and Side All is Dust and i like the inclusion of Karakas + Urborg. I support the Landsbase with 2 Petals, because they performed well in my gW build. Creatures i still test Bearer of Silence, i finally got a manabase that can support it well enough. If it works you get an (sometimes) uncounterable Removal (which can also eat Knights, TNN etc.) on a Stick which (thanks to flying) loves to carry a Jitte. The single World Breaker will ensure that this build will not lose to annoying Maindeck Bridge/Moat and is usefull vs Equipment or even a Strix. Removal - this build is heavily armed with 3 Dismember, 3 Wail, 2 Jitte, 2 Bearer and 3 Displacer which means that theoretical you can fight a lot of different creatures. Combo without MD Thorn can still be ok, the build still comes with Chalice, TKS and Wail - vs Reanimate/Sneak&Show you also have Karakas, Displacer, Bearer as potential answers. Sideboard is colorless, but the build can be morphed to WB colors if you cut 3 Crossroads and 1 Eye/City for 4 Caves of Koilos and maybe 1-2 Slots at Side for Plains/Karakas if you also want to cast RiP.
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Speaking of White - this is my latest gW.list that worked well for me:
Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Brushland
4x Cavern of Souls
2x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Eye of Ugin
2x Karakas
3x Mishra's Factory
Creature (21)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Eldrazi Mimic
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x World Breaker
Artifact (11)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Lotus Petal
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Instant (3)
3x Dismember
Sideboard (15)
2x All Is Dust
2x Plains
2x Containment Priest
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
Lands/Mana Mishra is very solid here. Petals+Guides acts as a boost and color fix. I like that Guides can trap your opponent with untapped Factory and this build can hardcast the Guide if needed. Creatures: Metamorph synergies well with Thorn/Mishra/Displacer and Equipment/Stoneforge. As Barook and others already mentioned, a white based build comes with various good Sideboard stuff: I really like Thalia, because it dodges Combo-Answers like Recall/K.Grip. I am unsure about the Sword-config. I can also see Sword of Body and Mind (you don't need protection "Black" often and UG works vs all the Shardless Stuff including TNN) since it will produce more blockers/attackers/carrier. If you cover UG protection this way, i can also see Barooks idea with Sword of War and Peace vs Miracle (Mentor), DnT and Burn. If you don't like Thorn (thanks to more midrange decks) you can also try 3 Warping Wail as a compromise between Removal and Combo-Protection.
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@Nevinnyrals Disc: I like the idea for colorless builds, especially if you profit with Reshaper which leads to the question if Oblivion Stone is stronger in this case. Sure it don't dodges Decay and will need 5 Mana to wipe the field but it can enter the Field after a Reshaper Trigger, can save your own permanents if you have mana and your opponent tends to hold back cards and it will also kill Planeswalker. Afterall i think both artifacts need Reshaper + Mishra to ensure you profit from the Wipe.
Last edited by MD.Ghost; 04-06-2016 at 11:09 AM.
TEAM MtG Berlin
Looking closer at my numbers, I'll try out this manabase, as it seems like the most reasonable combination of speed, consistency and utility, given the numbers:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas
4 Lotus Petal
Now all what I have to do is building a sideboard that does its job vs Shardless while being good vs other decks as well. From my experience, Matter Reshaper, Mishra's Factory and All is Dust are all cards that performed well vs Shardless. The best way to win is to overrun them before they can get their CA engine going and grow their Goyfs beyond our reach. Reshaper and Factory aren't really options for the BW build, but I could see 2-3 All is Dust doing well. I'm unsure if I rather want to run RiP or Leyline as GY hate of choice. How Toxic Deluge performs vs Shardless isn't entirely clear, either.
So far, my new board looks like this:
1 Karakas
3-4 RiP/Leyline
2-3 All is Dust (heavily leaning towards 3 copies since that worked best for me)
1 Toxic Deluge
which leaves 6-8 SB slots up in the air for various stuff.
- Maybe SB Thorns for Combo/spell-heavy decks? Has anybody experience if Sphere of Resistance slows Shardless down enough (e.g. Making Shardless Agent a 5 mana deal instead of 3 mana one)?
- Warping Wail #3?
- Some anti-Blood Moon tech would be nice that has other applications as well. Could be either artifact/enchantment removal or, as I mentioned previously, colorless mana artifacts with utility. Or maybe just straight up ramp artifacts (Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, Grim Monolith) + SB Ulamog? Or GW Talismans with World Breaker?
- I don't know how valid Containment Priest is anymore with multiple Toxic Deluges in the deck.
I have been playing with 2 Perish in the sideboard. So far it has been helpful and I will keep them on board. Also tried out 2 Unburial Rites to combat Hymns but never seemed to find them so can't tell how they are. Our biggest strength vs them is obviously the early game so I would still run 3 Eye of Ugin (also for All Is Dust I would run 3) but let us know how you do with the build above.
Deluge gets countered at times and that hurts. It still has helped me.
If you feel like preparing for discard, there's also stuff like Spiritual Focus (soft to Decay) and of course white leyline. I have no idea whether 8-leyline sideboard makes sense.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Looking at the numbers, the argument of "going broken" with Eye to overrun them isn't that great when it comes down to 3 Eyes (6%) vs 2 Eyes (4%) in the opening 7 (6% vs 9% on the draw).
Perish sounds like a great SB card since it's another one-sided sweeper, although it can't solve our biggest roadblock in the match-up, Baleful Strix.
However, there's something else what makes me reconsider my position: Thran Dynamo. I bring in All is Dust vs Blood Moon decks anyway (and more often than not, I was able to cast it after a while and win the game) and Thran Dynamo sets up an All is Dust rather handily by going from 4 --> 7 mana while also allowing you to normally cast your Eldrazi spells with C in it. Other applications could be making Eye activations actually feasible instead of a rare occurance. 4 mana plus double Dynamo also means Ulamog mana. I could see a SB plan of 3 Dynamo + 1 Ulamog happen, if it works well, even 4 Dynamo and 2 Ulamog for the more grindy games. I'll do some goldfishing and see how I like it.
EDIT: Currently screwing around with 4 Grim Monolith instead of Dynamo for speed reasons. While Monoliths are mostly one-shot accelerants, they might fit the strategy better since they can enable pretty silly things like huge Endless Ones by T2 or T3. That one is going to need significantly more testing before I buy them on MTGO, simply because a playset costs 80$.
Grim Monolith seems way better than dynamo if you're going that route. Bloodmoon protection AND turn-1 TKS!!
Unless you have 2 Monoliths or a Lotus Petal to complement the first Monolith, that's not going to work.
Since it's an additional speed bump, I could see applications in other match-ups as well, e.g. the mirror. Jamming down a huge Endless One early should give them major trouble unless they get a Displacer online.
I'm finding 3x Trinisphere in the SB useful vs Shardless BUG. Anybody else wanna try/confirm this?
Grim Monolith can take the colorless version to a turn 2 Endbringer or a faster fetch with Eye at times. I will try it in the SB next tourney.
Was not attempting to be salty Barook, only noting that i have been pushing the Deluge agenda since jump street and instead of getting quality critiques back as i try to interact my comments were just seemingly ignored. I am so on this deck that i have forsaken the entirity of my Magic collection to focus solely on the deck and the Legacy metagame it has inherited.
I would just like to discuss that is all. :)
Priest has been cut from the main, as the only decks i want both against ate Elves and Death and Taxes, where the overlap is well worth it for GSZ and Aether Vial.
Going to be grinding all day with an updated list (2 Deluge main still, Containment Priests out, 2 Jitte and 3 Wail configuration) and will post results later. Really wish i could afford to put this together on MTGO but i already have it in Paper and am currently going through a rough custody dispute costing me.
Hi,
For cards that helps with shardless Consider perish, Rest in Peace and Chalice on 0.
that all helps. Its not a great matchup but if we can keep up the speed its winnable.
All is dust Sounds sweet. Dont Know-how often we can cast it reliable.
I think as Long as we can keep tarmogoyf out of Business we can kill them.
Strix has to be killed by warping wail or maybe jitte counters.
Friendly regards
Seems that the Helm SB plan is becoming popular: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...anese-approach
Edit: Additionally, results from my test list with two color main deck splash and splash for black for SB toxics from: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post941832
Missing 3 lock pieces is absolutely brutal, whether it is sphere or thorn, this is a stompy deck foremost and splashing that many colors and cutting 3 lock pieces was too much for the deck. That said, the times that Chalic was in my hand, and displacer/toxic/worldbreaker all found their way into my hand it was nice. It was clunky - and running 2/2 split with lotus petals/ mox diamond was probably the wrong call. Lotus petals weren't enough for the many colors. I would run 1/3 split next time, just to try it out. That said, I don't think there is much future in that direction. It is simply more efficent to be colorless or just splash a single color and have a minor color splash for SB Black or Green.
My next test list will be one featuring blue for SB chills, this is due to a current proliferation of Blood Moon decks in my meta and I want to see how Chill works against them. If it would be worth it to the greater community, I don't know.
Colorless Eldrazi v1.02 darkghost Lands (25) Spells (16) Creatures (19) Sideboard 4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tangle Wire
4 Grim Monolith
1 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Endbringer3 Trinisphere
2 All is Dust
10 open slots still
Hi all. So I tested Grim Monolith and ended up liking and stuck it maindeck. I also ended up with the Colorless variant again taking out the Displacers as I end up getting Endbringers faster for the grind. The Tangle Wires are there to (possibly) delay until I get my bigger creatures. DnT still remains a problematic match-up.
I was not sure if 2 Dismembers and 1 Warping Wail was the right choice for spot removal.
I definitely have to have something more in the sideboard for the Storm match-up as I've taken all the tax effects out MD.
I'm leaning towards RiP as GY hate of choice now. As nice as AD immunity, T0 availability and being uncounterable are, actually being able cast it & completely shutting down anything GY-related, including DRS & Goyf feels stronger to me.
Played my first game against a Moon effect on Cockatrice with Monolith. It felt pretty good. I could operate normally under Blood Moon, being able to cast my TKS and Smasher. Mana stones that tap for colorless might be one of the best solutions to Blood Moon effects, including the colorless version of the deck. But that opens up the question what's the most fitting one for our deck?
Deluge continues to impress me in various match-ups, like killing a Blazing Archon that slipped through after my Leyline got bounced (RiP would have solved that problem). I think the 2 MD/1 SB copy split is a pretty good one.
@RiP: That is right for me too - if a build have enough white mana, RiP should be the way to go. It helps to have some "speed" with Petals/Guides to be able to play it turn 1 if it matters.
@Moon/Mana Stones: One of my very first sketches from the deck was with Grim Monolith, but the build overall aimed for a longer Game (with Bombs like Ulamog, All is Dust Main etc.) so no fast Mimic Beatdown. I don't see Monolith in a streamlined build like most (colorless) Aggro Version. Since most of the time its a "fire and forget" ability, i would play any petal/guide over it. Monolith can be dazed/pierced (or for the blowout, daze the Smasher you cast with it), it will be a target for Decay/Wear or even Stuff like Null Rod (i faced one from Dragon Stompy and it killed my 3 Monoliths and 3 Talisman as outs for the Moon: "GG").
If you wan't some slots vs Moon i would chose: Wastes (i knew you don't like it^^). Wastes can't be countered and can't be destroyed so easily and you simply can ignore Moon with one <c> per Turn. It also will (like a Mana Artifact) work to some degree vs Manadenial if you increase the land count (or get rid of some Cities if the matchup tends to be a Grind). Bonus vs Random Matchups: Path to Exile (DnT/Maverick)/Veteran Explorer (Nic Fit)/From the Ashes (Miracle) lose some power if you have a pair of Basics at Side. The bottom line is that i would play Wastes over any Mana Stone if its only a Sidetech. Monoliths and Talisman are still a valid choice for (not so common) midrange builds including higher cc like Ulamog etc.
@Toxic Deluge: Killing Blazing Archon isn't a good example here, because -6/-6 tends to also wipe all your Eldrazi Creatures^^ I would love to see my Bearer of Silence in this situation (if it is the common case that you only faced one scary reanimate target). As someone mentioned, Toxic for 5+ (Gofy, Angler etc.) can be a harsh decision, especially if you also used Tomb/Dismember. Overall i see the Deluge tech as a valid weapon if you aim to wipe a field full of Grixis Stuff, or Shardless with Strix, DS and Agent or for matchups like Elves and DnT where All is Dust can be to slow etc.
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Faced some BUG Decks yesterday and won all of them with the Devoid-Build (see above), all the Removal worked (unsurprisingly) very good so far. Bojuka Bog (added a 2nd copy over CoW) also appeared sometimes shrinked the GY (Gofy/DS) and worked as an additional (B) Landdrop.
TEAM MtG Berlin
Anyone got a good non-wasteland version?
I was thinking of playing @Riehu Black White version with toxic deluge in the main.
Should I just play Bearer of Silence?
You can try my Devoid-Version (with Bearer, Displacer, Breaker etc. - see above), or the gW build from Barook (i also posted a list above) or the WB build with Toxic Deluge from Riehu (Barook posted his customized list as well). All 3 decks have Displacer (!) and gW + WB can also support white Sideboard cards to some degree.
You can also try a colorless shell and cut Wasteland for Mishra's Factory or aim bigger and play a Cloudpost Shell with Ulamog.
My conclusion is that it is no superior "non-wasteland version" version. It all depends on meta (note: MODO isn't paper) and playstyle.
TEAM MtG Berlin
Played two leagues with colorless version for a change today. Other 5-0 and other is 1-2 (lost to Slivers hehe and Sneak&Show).
I think the list was this:
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Endbringer
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Faerie Macabre
2 All Is Dust
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
Wanted to try go all aggro with lock pieces for a change. Worked this time (I guess I drew well too) and it was a nice change to just lock and bash. All Is Dust I got to finally cast as well, working like a charm. Will try that in the BW version again too most likely.
4 color Deathblade 2-1
High Tide 2-0
The Cure 2-0
Sneak&Show 2-1
URB pyromancer / snapcaster (Moon sb) 2-1
@Riehu -- Did you miss the wastelands at all? I've been thinking about cutting the wastelands for Mishra's factories as well -- how was that change? Would you continue to play the same mana base or would you go back to the 4x Wasteland version instead?
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