[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Dr_D]

Backlash looks like fun stuff against a few decks, like 12 post, sneak and show, Dark Depths etc.

Against Sneak it's only okay against Griselbrand, and it's still not great. Against 12-post it doesn't hit anything that would 1 shot them, so I don't see how it's effective, especially since it seems like a good matchup already.

[Hardcore]

I expect to have hurt their life totals already before casting it.
Or after. To instant tap a blocker is not bad when it is a big monster.

[mykatdied]

I expect to have hurt their life totals already before casting it.
Or after. To instant tap a blocker is not bad when it is a big monster.

Unless it is emrakul which can't be targeted. You're likely better off with diabolic edict of anything

[OmniStrata]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2qhyC8PChU

Gleaned some ideas from this. I do notice times where I top deck Dark Ritual and are very sad... However, instead of having 11 threats, I'm keeping it between 8-10. Being a Sinkhole + Nether Void build, I can't really rely on Rack too much but it still functions simply due to Liliana and Hymn to Tourach x 4 in the same deck.

I'll also need to acquire Dread of Night and Contagion because, as was mentioned, cheap and free spells are too good apparently.

[Hardcore]

Notice the lack of top in his build. Weird.

[OmniStrata]

Notice the lack of top in his build. Weird.

It's not that weird. SDT without shuffle effects (Ponder/Fetchlands) starts to give you garbage after 3-5 turns. In a long grindy game, that's a horrifying situation to be in. I think he's got the Raven's Crime as a way to do something with top decked lands. In my case, I should probably consider either Syphon Life or Worm Harvest. Syphon looks more practical.

What I thought was odd was the lack of High-Impact cards such as E. Plague, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. On the other hand, his 11 threat suite will probably kill his opponent fast enough for the cards not to matter.

[Hardcore]

Well, what is his reason for not running top? Is it an oversight only?

[OmniStrata]

Well, what is his reason for not running top? Is it an oversight only?

Why does he need Sensei's Divining Top?

[Hardcore]

Why not? He can easily make room for it. For example, eight 1cc discard is a bit excessive, imo.
Two top and six 1cc discard is definitely better. He would have to run some fetches, but that isn't much of a problem.

His Modern deck does not include top and for that, and other reasons, i suspect he went from Pox Modern to pox Legacy.


Here is his Modern deck btw

4 Liliana of the Veil

14 Swamp
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mutavault
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Dismember
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
3 Wrench Mind

SB
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Nyxathid
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Waste Not
1 Bile Blight
2 Disfigure
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Damnation
2 Deathmark

[OmniStrata]

Why not? He can easily make room for it. For example, eight 1cc discard is a bit excessive, imo.
Two top and six 1cc discard is definitely better. He would have to run some fetches, but that isn't much of a problem.

His Modern deck does not include top and for that, and other reasons, i suspect he went from Pox Modern to pox Legacy.

8 Discard is not excessive when you've got 5 The Rack effects and even more in the sideboard. Should Liliana get the needle, which I'm sure she will, throwing spells to the dome is awesome. Turning every land into a discard spell is also great with Raven's Crime so the need for Top dwindles ever lower. He did not choose to run fetches in both his Modern and his Legacy Pox decks.

I think he believes it's better to have disruption rather than durdle. The retrace spells simply make top decking lands less of a pain and with 2 Racks being a mere 3 turn clock after getting slapped by a Mishra's, he probably believes, like myself, that SDT is actually stronger in other decks besides Pox.

Historically speaking, the majority of Pox decks that top 8'd didn't run SDT. I keep finding that 1 mana burned each turn to use it is just not worth it, even late game, but like everything, you're mileage may vary.

[Hardcore]

As i see it Thoughtseize and Inquisition have the job of pulling teeth turn one, to be followed by a stronger Hymn turn two. Also to pull counters to free way for playing more important spells. However it's been my experience that they do virtually nothing to enable the rack since they can't force the opponent to discard lands. In that situation i always want to draw a Hymn.

As for not being run in the top 8-decks i think the reason may be that those ran Nether Void in the main.

I have in the past excluded top but changed my mind, again. I don't keep records so i can't say if if helps me or not, BUT i did have them during my recent streak of good performance at the local tourney (including my second tourney win).

[zenitramleirdag]

I don't mind top in 8rack, i've also ran list that don't run it..
though i've always preferred dakmor salvage and/or darkblast instead of fetches to clear the cluttered top cards when i was running top..because those dredge cards could also possibly enable my nether spirit, bloodghasts, raven's crime, or even syphon life(from the side) by dredging them in the yard..i also kinda feel that running fetches reduces our virtual land count which could be an issue when you're poxing like crazy..or when you need more lands to feed to your raven's crime..

but i've also seen lists that run em', so i guess they're fine..matter of preference i guess..

[Hardcore]

Yeah, i have won games when dredging bloodghasts into the graveyard:-) I have been thinking of maybe including one DS in the deck. It helps when casting tombstalker too. Even better is Darkblast to put cards in the graveyard. I do no longer rate it highly for creature removal but with top it would be better. Then you can choose the better card to draw/dredge.

[OmniStrata]

There's enough GY hate in Legacy that I've decided to forego Graveyard use. Having Nether Spirit hop in and out is enough. In my days of Crucible, Worm Harvest, Life from the Loam etc, having GY use is strong, but once it gets denied, it's almost as if half your strength gets cut down.

I'd rather be 'durable' in all situations, so if someone brings in GY hate just for my Nether Spirit, it becomes a joke as it's technically a dead card after Nether Spirit is exiled and one less thing for me to worry about. Is the card quality gain worth it? I've found it wasn't. I'd rather just construct the deck in such a way that the top decks are always dangerous. Ultimately, it's less consistent than top, but it's also less weak to hate.

In the Sideboard discussion of that video, Tom Ross mentioned the lone Pithing Needle was for needling SDT and Aether Vial as Mono-B has no way to deal with it quickly otherwise. In that regard, that should explain why he is not running SDT as he'd just end up Needling himself.

I think I'll bring back Syphon Life as threat #9 to make my top decked lands 4 life point swings.

[Hardcore]

So he does not want to needle his own top? Well, his loss. Btw, i noticed he has not run into any chalice of the void on one yet:-)
No artifact hate.

I know what you mean about hating the graveyard. With Rest in Peace in play it can be hard to cast a tombstalker. Still i usually succesfully play around that hate to win. Our decks can utilize the graveyard but we are not dependent of it, unlike dredge.

Can't say much about Syphon Life, i have not had much experience with.
I am too aggro for that i suppose.
Currently i am thinking of solving my Marit Lage problem by all out attack and a spell for finish. Like Kaervek's Spite or Price of progress:-)

Ed. I usually think "how big a threat, relatively speaking, is this card after a Pox?" For example nihilith swings for lethal in three turns, making it a 6/6. Siphon Life otoh would drain it all in six turns rather than ten. This makes a three life drain. On its own!

[OmniStrata]

So he does not want to needle his own top? Well, his loss. Btw, i noticed he has not run into any chalice of the void on one yet:-)
No artifact hate.

I know what you mean about hating the graveyard. With Rest in Peace in play it can be hard to cast a tombstalker. Still i usually succesfully play around that hate to win. Our decks can utilize the graveyard but we are not dependent of it, unlike dredge.

Can't say much about Syphon Life, i have not had much experience with.
I am too aggro for that i suppose.
Currently i am thinking of solving my Marit Lage problem by all out attack and a spell for finish. Like Kaervek's Spite or Price of progress:-)

Ed. I usually think "how big a threat, relatively speaking, is this card after a Pox?" For example nihilith swings for lethal in three turns, making it a 6/6. Siphon Life otoh would drain it all in six turns rather than ten. This makes a three life drain. On its own!

Ideally, I won't be attacking with only 1 threat. A single 2/2 Mishra's or Nether Spirit is slow, so a big Pox or 2 is necessary. Also, I find it better to strike with 2 threats. Rack and Nether Spirit is 3 turn clock after a Pox. If I were to run biggie threats, I'd run fewer. Like old Eva Green with 4 Goyf/Stalkers in the day. Gunning 9-11 threats is crucial to kill Jace if he ever shows up.

I don't think Tom Ross cares about Chalice @1 or what not and will simply accept the match up as is. As we see in the deck build, he's got a ton of 1 mana spells, much more than other Pox decks I've see published. Perhaps that attitude is the way to go. How many CotV decks are we supposed to truly worry about anyway? I honestly haven't seen that many lurking.

How does one play around Rest in Peace to cast a Tombstalker aside from either hard casting it [yowch] or delving before RiP hits the field? If that's the case, I feel that the sideboard supposed to shore up the problem by simply having more 2+ cmc cards to fill the deck vs CotV.

[Hardcore]

Ideally, I won't be attacking with only 1 threat. A single 2/2 Mishra's or Nether Spirit is slow, so a big Pox or 2 is necessary. Also, I find it better to strike with 2 threats. Rack and Nether Spirit is 3 turn clock after a Pox. If I were to run biggie threats, I'd run fewer. Like old Eva Green with 4 Goyf/Stalkers in the day. Gunning 9-11 threats is crucial to kill Jace if he ever shows up.

I don't think Tom Ross cares about Chalice @1 or what not and will simply accept the match up as is. As we see in the deck build, he's got a ton of 1 mana spells, much more than other Pox decks I've see published. Perhaps that attitude is the way to go. How many CotV decks are we supposed to truly worry about anyway? I honestly haven't seen that many lurking.

How does one play around Rest in Peace to cast a Tombstalker aside from either hard casting it [yowch] or delving before RiP hits the field? If that's the case, I feel that the sideboard supposed to shore up the problem by simply having more 2+ cmc cards to fill the deck vs CotV.

Yeah, Siphon would ideally be used i conjunction with other threats. That goes without saying! :-)
Btw, it ignores 3sphere/chalice too, if one is inclined to run that, or encounter it . (I love finding subtle advantages in cards!)

I am very interested in learning how Tom Ross will be doing with his deck, and how it evolves.
It is basically his Modern discard deck ported to Legacy. I have tried the pure discard route myself but with little success. If you found more video clips it would be nice if you posted them.

Playing around Rest in Peace: TS could be discard to Liliana to help set up the rack win, or it could be sideboarded out:-)
Third option is to make the opponent discard it to hymn to tourach!
Admittedly its susceptibility to GY hate is a reason i looked for replacements. Any ideas are welcome!

[PirateKing]

Guys, what are your thoughts on Phyrexian Totem as the large beater to close the game out faster?
I've used it in the past to medium effectiveness, getting punished hard once against RUG Delver (2x Lighting Bolts wiped my board, we both played Draw-Go until he found a Goose while I found not lands), but otherwise performing fine helping keep up even through many Smallpox. If Eldrazi Stompy gets super popular over the summer, then it'd definitely stay at home, but for a while I was really considering dusting them off.
Am I just bad? Help.

[Hardcore]

Guys, what are your thoughts on Phyrexian Totem as the large beater to close the game out faster?
I've used it in the past to medium effectiveness, getting punished hard once against RUG Delver (2x Lighting Bolts wiped my board, we both played Draw-Go until he found a Goose while I found not lands), but otherwise performing fine helping keep up even through many Smallpox. If Eldrazi Stompy gets super popular over the summer, then it'd definitely stay at home, but for a while I was really considering dusting them off.
Am I just bad? Help.

Well, you provide your own answer. There is a need to adapt to the opposition. If the opponent have access to red mana then you ideally want to empty his hand before activating totem, or have plenty of permanents in play to sacrifice just in case. Note that delver decks that run red usually only have four lightningbolts as direct damage spells. Delver burn otoh is more of a burn deck and you need be aware of the differences.

[PirateKing]

Well, you provide your own answer. There is a need to adapt to the opposition. If the opponent have access to red mana then you ideally want to empty his hand before activating totem, or have plenty of permanents in play to sacrifice just in case. Note that delver decks that run red usually only have four lightningbolts as direct damage spells. Delver burn otoh is more of a burn deck and you need be aware of the differences.

Well I mean obviously it'll have it's bad matchups, you'll play smart against Burn and whatever. I'm just saying, that was the only time where it came as a genuine surprise, he definitely picked his line of play and played it smartly. But again, as the only example, that should represent the unlikely-but-not-impossible level of risk that's undertaken. But with all the discussion of cards like Tombstalker and moving away from the reliance on the graveyard, reminded me that's the slot where two of these lived in my list. So maybe it's a viable alternative for that higher power creature, or again, maybe I'm just bad.