Miracle Control

[ozimek]

I'd like to have a discussion on Blood Moon vs Back to Basics.

I have been running one or two Blood Moons in the SB for a long time, but am considering a switch to B2B.

Blood Moon
Pros
* Better colour hosing against most decks
* Disables fetches (see below!)
* Shuts down Marit Lage combo
* Does not die to Red Blast
* Non-basics can still be used to activate Top etc.

Cons
* Disables fetches (hurts us a lot!)

Best vs
* Eldrazi (Eye of Ugin Discount, no or few colourless sources)
* BUG
* Lands

Mana base constraints
* Fewer Tundras?
* Fewer Fetches?

Back to Basics
Pros
* Does not kill fetches. Our fetches are likely better than the opponent's
* Pitches to FoW
* More restricting on "off-colour" mana. This might actually be a con?

Cons
* Dies to REB
* Easier to play around
* Does not deal with Marit Lage

Best vs
* Grindy multi-colour decks like Esper, 4C delver
* Delver decks that cheat on mana (i.e. most delver decks)
* Grixis
* Might be playable vs. Death & Taxes? Hoses Ports, but OTOH they have lots of Basic Plains and Vials...

Mana base constraints
* Basic Mountain might be warranted to supplement Volcanics(?) I'm thinking 1 Mountain + 1 Volcanic as opposed to 3 Volcanics.

Generally, Blood Moon is the harder lock, but it also hurts ourselves a lot more mainly due to disabling shuffles from fetch lands. If we are behind on board position, it can often be very dangerous to drop a Blood Moon, as it severely hurts our ability to dig for answers. B2B seems like it would come in in more match-ups and give a small edge, whereas Blood Moon in a complete bomb, but useable in fewer match-ups. Miracles has fair game against most decks, which would suggest going for a small edge in more match-ups, but the inability to shut down Marit Lage seems like a huge deal. If we look at hte "Best vs" lists, the match-ups under Blood Moon are the ones where I feel we need the most help.

Any experiences with B2B would be much appreciated. When does it come in? Are you generally just slamming it ASAP? Does bouncing B2B with Venser ever come up?

On a related note the number of Tundras to run might warrant a discussion. Almost everyone runs 3 Tundras, but I often find they are a liability. I saw on Joe's latest list on mtgpulse.com that he is running only a single Tundra, but that may be due to him having 2 Karakas+Cavern+Cavern(SB).
I am considering going down to 2 Tundras in my "3-Ponder, no Mentor main, no legends" build regardless of the Moon vs B2B discussion.

[mr_tolkien]

Blood Moon is not there to be a value card.

You enter Blood Moon when it's a kill.

Eldrazi, Delver, and BUG can't play under Blood Moon. They are the three most popular decks after Miracles.

Back to Basics is cute, but it doesn't provide the instant game-winning advantage that Blood Moon does. The opponent might still be able to cast one or two spells. He can use his future lands.

[CutthroatCasual]

One of my friends once said: "Your non-land permanents [in Miracles] should win you the game."

In the MUs where you would bring them in, B2B cannot win you the game. Blood Moon often can.

Losing the ability to fetch is a big detriment, but it's a tradeoff worth making if it ensures that your opponents won't be able to play Magic for a good majority of the rest of the game (assuming they have a basic Forest in their deck to cast a KGrip or Decay, but by then you'll have either established an ETA or Jace ticking up.) B2B lets them make nonbasic land drops to cast those enchantment removal spells, Blood Moon makes their nonbasic land drops useless. If the only argument to not running Blood Moon, and it seems to be the only one based on what I've read on this thread, is that we can't fetch, I'll run Blood Moon every time. With our basic land density, it only takes one Ponder or Brainstorm or a Sensei's Top (which can be used with any color mana) after landing a Moon to find a wincon, even if that wincon is a VClique.

[iPhone7]

Good afternoon folks. I am sorry if this is a repeat question, but can someone give me a cliffs notes on when to board a mentor in? I've seen some lists that have 2 entreat main and 2 mentor side. Other than when you're starting game 3 with 8 minutes left on the clock, what matchups do you guys typically like mentor against? Also, when you board mentor in against those folks, do you board the entreats out? Thanks!

[CutthroatCasual]

Short answer since I'm on my phone: MUs where we need to be the aggressor because the other deck has inevitability are where Mentor shines. Often ETA will come out, sometimes not–for example, if you're expecting to use Mentor in a defensive capacity, i.e. against Eldrazi is the big one right now. It's good to just have a backup "I win" button in ETA. However, in games where I personally board in Mentor, I take out at least 1 ETA, but this is likely more a consequence of boarding in other stuff like a second Clique.

[gdtpara]

I'd also consider From the ashes in that kind of slot.
It unallow the float mana and kill the moon/B2B play, but is 1 more mana.

[caprino]

hi,matcup vs eldrazi aggro and eldrazi ramp is difficult?

[fluuu]

hi,matcup vs eldrazi aggro and eldrazi ramp is difficult?

Eldrazi ramp is imposible

[CutthroatCasual]

I'd also consider From the ashes in that kind of slot.
It unallow the float mana and kill the moon/B2B play, but is 1 more mana.

This has been discussed at length. Against the decks you would ever cast this against (which are the same decks you would play B2B and BM against), it's not fast enough nor back-breaking enough.

[prepare4robots]

This has been discussed at length. Against the decks you would ever cast this against (which are the same decks you would play B2B and BM against), it's not fast enough nor back-breaking enough.

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

[CutthroatCasual]

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

I was talking about From the Ashes.

As for B2B in Lossett's list, Joe Lossett can do whatever he wants because for whatever reason he and he alone does well with his Legends build. I've not seen anyone have nearly the same amount of success with Joe's list. As such, he can play whatever cards he wants and likely still do well.

[twndomn]

Tend to disagree. For example, any decent Lands pilot will bring in Grips post board and fetch a basic forest. In this instance playing Blood Moon simply gets Gripped. They can also still play Gamble to search for that Grip if needed. With Back to Basics, however, you can play it when they are tapped out giving them only a single green. This means they will have to wait a minimum of two turns before Gripping it. Two turns where you have complete control of the board. Similar situation with Eldrazi. Not all of their threats require colourless mana (i.e., Endless One). So, all Blood Moon does is slow them down. Same as Back to Basics.

The differently is that under Back to Basics, Miracles is able to operate with almost no downside. This is a huge advantage.

Blood Moon may be better in Mentor builds, I'm not sure. But in Builds running Entreat and Council's Judgement it is very hard to get to WW after a Blood Moon is in play. Generally only two plains in the deck.

I also notice Joe is running two Back to Basics in the board, so discussion can't be completely over...

You are mostly correct. Actually, the MU you would consider these hate are:
Lands
Shardless BUG
Eldrazi

Against horrible opponents, you can just float Blood Moon or B2B, wait for them to tap those non-basic, often that's the game. However, most decent players of above mentioned decks except Eldrazi would have at least 1 Basic/un-crack Fetch in play for the SB games. The issue with B2B has always been the timing. The issue with Blood Moon is not simply timing, also your opponent has to step into it, and the Moon also makes your Miracles deck very difficult to operate. Sure, From the Ashes won't have those problems, it has a different problem: Warping Wail. Even DnT runs WW, I've run into DnT's WW when I tried to CJ something.

At this meta, this point in time, I would say you are strongly recommended to have 1~2 SB slots for these non-basic land hate. 0 is not acceptable.

[Quasim0ff]

I haven't played Blood Moon, From the Ashes as well as From the ashes; I've actually been really happy so far.

I, personally, dislike Blood Moon against delver. I don't think it's particularly strong. We will be struggling with resolving it.

I don't think it's strong versus Lands and Shardless. Shardless always have access to Abrupt Decay, and Lands always have grip; They are even playing Abrupt Decay against us now.

I think From the Ashes is highly superior against Shardless, than Blood Moon and Back to Basics. I think B2B is close to unplayabe against them. It literally does nothing, besides tap them down until they find their decay. From the Ashes just poops on them.

[mort-]

Blood Moon is very strong against Delver. The same against lands, you do have to wait for a good opportunity though. It's not a "slam and win".
I did Top8 my second Legacy Challenge in a row yesterday, starting 0-1 and then going all the way to the semifinals, in which I got absolutly crushed by a blind card drawn and a blindflip off CB in the same turn G2. I'm still not sure if I want to do commentary, but I'll probably record the replays and post them on Youtube again.

[rancOr_]

Hi guys,little report. Yesterday I went to the Dutch Open Series, there were 71 players.
I played Predictable Miracles (+/- Mackan/Minniehajj list).
Decided to test 1 ETA/1 Mentor instead of 2 ETA.

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Jace,the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Monastery Mentor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Predict
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
1 Council's Judgement
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Izzet Staticaster

R1: Miracles 0-1
Since I was stuck for over an hour in traffic I arrived when the first round had already started for 10 minutes. Luckily I was still able to participate, but I start with a game loss.
G2 I win the dice roll and mull to 6 to keep a hand of 3 land,counterbalance,predict,terminus.
I play a t2 Counterbalance which resolves and so does he. I draw land and another terminus and scoop to his t4 Jace. Dont feel so great after this but decide to keep going.


R2: ANT 2-0
G1 I mull to five and keep a hand of 2 land,Ponder,Ponder,SCM on the draw. I scry and see a FoW.
He goes t1 Duress and takes a Ponder. I Ponder and take a Predict leaving Counterspell on top. He goes Gprobe+Cabal and takes my FoW. I just play fetch go. He goes all-in and I had the Counterspell.
G2 I keep a decent hand and set up CB/Top with some counters and beat him with a V.Clique.

R3: Burn 2-1
G1 I keep a hand with 2 Island,Brainstorm,Ponder,STP,Terminus ,X . He goes t1 Goblin Guide. I Ponder and shuffle, but dont draw any fetch/white source. He plays some burn and another Goblin Guide. I Brainstorm into a Ponder which shows me a Tundra but it's too late and I can't stabilize.
G2 Close game but I can Terminus his Goblin Guide+ Eidolon and stabilize on low life with SFM.
G3 I get to a situation where I'm on 1 life with a Counterbalance in play (no SDT) and he only has one land since he had Fireblast'ed me. He draws and suspend a Rift Bolt which I have to Counterspell next turn. I draw only lands but get to STP/Flusterstorm some spells untill I draw Snapcaster and Brainstorm and get there.

R4: Elves 1-1-1
G1 I believe he mulls to 6 on the draw, but I win this game quite easily with CB/Top lock.
G2 After a long grind, I think I have stabilized a bit at 3 life since I V.Clique'd him and took a DRS to bottom (he had 2 in hand). I STP'ed the other one. I had a Counterbalance, V. Clique and Izzet Staticaster in play. Had to fetch down to 2 life to play Staticaster. He draws another DRS, I miss on CB and dont draw an answer.
G3 We get to extra turns but neither of us can finish. Pretty sure I would have won this though.

R5: Rock 2-1
G1 I can keep his creatures off the board and gain massive CA with Predict and Jace.
G2 He plays a Trinisphere which slows me down a lot while beating with Gaddock Teeg and Kotr. He had a Karakas too and tapped it some times but I didnt have the STP so can't go STP into hardcast Terminus. I scoop when he casts Armageddon. I didn't knew exactly what he was playing but it was some Rock type brew featuring Noble,DRS,Quasali,SFM,Goyf,KotR,Liliana,Crucible,..
G3 I mull to 6 on the play. But I can set up a Brainstorm into Terminus and play a Mentor+Ponder. He has Liliana, Goyf, Quasali but I found 2 SDT and he scoops 2 turns after.

R6: Nic Fit 2-1
G1 He has a Liliana ticking up to 6 while I had Jace eventually. He ultimates me and I have to let Jace go and he follows up with a Thrun. I don't find Terminus and lose.
G2/G3 I can grind him out and finish with ETA/Mentor.

R7: Deathblade 2-0
Don't remember his name but I know he's a very good player. I had seen before he was on Deathblade.
G1 I can Terminus a TNN and a bit later another one. I don't remember all the details as a lot of things happened here but I got there with Jace.
G2 Another grind, but after a long game I can take control. REB's/Terminus were really good here obviously.

QF: ANT 1-2
I have to play against Jamie Westlake,imo one of the best ANT players in Europe so I know it will be a good match.
G1: I keep a decent hand with some lands and cantrips and he discards my CB. I can always leave up Counterspell+FoW and he isn't ready to combo through that while I eot ETA for 2 and get there.
G2: He mulls to 6. We get to a situation where I have a Top in play and I brainstorm/cantrip a bit tapping out with 3 lands in play (I had found Counterbalance and also had Clique,Predict,X in hand).
He only had 3 cards in hand when I passed the turn. He draws and goes for an EtW and makes 8 goblins :( I had 4 turns to find my Izzet Staticaster but couldn't find him.
G3 was pretty epic. Both my 7 and 6 card hand didn't have a single land so I have to mulligan down to 5 and keep a hand of land,BS,CB,X,X on the play. I just go land go. I think he plays a Ponder or something. Next turn I Brainstorm into CB,FoW,X but no land. I leave the FoW on top. He plays a discard spell . He sets up his hand a bit while I draw FoW and another spell. I then find a 2nd land and play CB which he Decays EOT. I play another one the following turn that get's decayed aswell. He knew this since he had prob'd before and didn't take any of the CB. On his turn he goes EtW I think for 10-12 but not all-in. I drew another FoW and Staticaster one of the previous turns^^ I topdeck my 3th land and can play Staticaster. We both draw go for 1-2 turns and I draw V.Clique which I play eot and I see Dark Ritual,LED,Infernal Tutor,Tendrils. I decide to bottom TOA since I had FoW,FoW,predict,REB ,X in hand and only had him on a 6 turn clock while at 16 life and 5 lands untapped. He Cabal Therapies me which I hardcast FoW, and follows up with a Duress to take my other FoW and can easily combo out with LED,IT for PIF. Unfortunately the Clique trigger gave him a Cabal Therapy and he drew a Duress. He goes on to win the event, well played ! ;)

[waz]

Split T4 of the SCG Baltimore Classic yesterday. Will post report in the next few days.

[MiraclesWizard]

Split T4 of the SCG Baltimore Classic yesterday. Will post report in the next few days.

how'd you tie for 4th, Miracles was 2nd and then again in 23/24th place?

[Quasim0ff]

how'd you tie for 4th, Miracles was 2nd and then again in 23/24th place?

They split for prizepool and played it out for points/whatever SCG classics give now. As well as trophy?

[waz]

We split the prize pool, and determined winners for each match, in a nonrandom method. No games in top 4.

[twndomn]

Looking at Miracles at Baltimore,
2 Surgical in a list,
1 RiP in another list,
but the most common sb config is 2 Containment Priest and 1 RiP.

Is the Priest back in trend again? This is like fashion. It is a versatile card no doubt, ok against Vial decks, turns off non-Omni show and tell, decent against graveyard, ok against Elves. I guess the most common sb config at this point in time would be:
2 Cliques
3 Red Blast Effects
2 non-basic land hates
2 Containment Priests
2 Flusterstorms

That's 11 already. After that, the rest of 4 seems to vary a lot. Yeah, people say Moat is a narrow card, it's also pricey, but that seems to be the flavor of the month. I wonder if the trend will continue if Eldrazi eventually loses its popularity. I mean, there's like one Eldrazi in the top 32.