[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

What do you guys think of the sideboard plans that I proposed?

1. Painful Truths. This is the typical complement with Esper Mentor, but it has the problems of being 3 mana (already clogged with Mentor), vulnerable to the spell hate people tend to bring in (Flusterstorm, Daze etc), and still ahem painful.
2. Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull. Stoneforge is ETB card advantage, and BUG decks have a real tough time beating a Batterskull in play. Miracles also has trouble with a recurring 4/4 if the game gets to that point. It's great against creature / tribal decks where Mentor isn't necessarily. Equipment helps the token plan. Very promising, but most likely needs a third white source.
3. Counterbalance. Yes. It's a huge bomb against Miracles especially since I can power it out turn 1 with Lotus Petal and doesn't get hit by either removal or Flusterstorm. It also allows me to cut Flusterstorms for my anti-combo slots, leaving more room for other matchups. It isn't great against Delver though. I think this is better in the right metagames, but overall weaker.

Potential sideboards:
4 Monastery Mentor, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Dread of Night, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Serenity (and -1 Sea, +1 Tundra maindeck)
4 Monastery Mentor, 3 Counterbalance, 1 Sensei's Divining Top, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Disenchant, 1 Serenity

Interesting. I was playing Esper Mentor for a while - and I honestly liked both Fact or Fiction and Esper Charm significantly more than Painful Truths. Instant speed is big game unto itself. That said - Painful Truths is far easier to cast in a deck of Dark Rituals than Esper Charm is. However, all of these are vulnerable to cards that our opponents are likely to bring in: spell pierce, flusterstorm, etc. That's why I was tending to like Bob, as he is usually harder for them to interact with post board.

I've had a few local people ask me about Stoneforge + BSkull as well. Had been meaning to test that, but never really got around to it. Because of the mana in this deck, I was tending to lean towards a more aggressive configuration of Bobs and Mentor to hedge against wastelands and such. Could easily be wrong though.

Counterbalance is fascinating. I've played it as a tempo card in a few other decks, but hadn't really thought about it here. That sounds like a hilarious sideboard transformation. I would just worry that we're too threat light then.

Cool ideas! And good work on the T4!

[hoolegr]

First time playing Legacy in over a year yesterday, so I headed to a 32 man, 5 rounds & top 8, Legacy tournament, ready to burst some onions. Below is my Report of this, I will get the 75 typed up either tonight or tomorrow with luck.

round 1 - Elves - Turn 1 Entomb G-Brand, turn 2 Shallow grave - Spin the proverbial basketball and then burst some onions. Game 2: Rinse and repeat game 1.

Round 2 - Eldrazi - Game 1 - Mulligan to 4 (Entomb, land, land, Re-animate), Turn 2 G-brand, but fail to go off. Lose To endless ones to the face. Game 2: Mentor Plan but left in 1 Entomb, 1 G-brand, and the tendrils, cabal therapy Mentor out of my own hand, reanimate mentor turn 2, Crack fetchland and ponder, Then make men and Beat down by turn 4. Game 3 - hit Entomb and Reanimate, Make g-brand turn 2, tendrils win that turn (Hit petals, rituals, and Tendrils in draw)

Round 3 - RUG delver - Game 1, Play underground sea, Entomb (reanimate in hand), he Wastlands my Underground sea, hit petal, reanimate, Draw 7, Fail to find land, lose to delver. Game 2 - Turn 1 ritual, entomb, Re-animate Gbrand, he fails to flip delver and scoops. Game 3 - Fail to Find anything, try to go off, hit Force, force, Daze. Cry into the plate where my onions should have been.

Round 4 - Jund - Game 1, Land, petal, ritual, entomb, reanimate, Draw 14, swing 22 with Emrakul and G-brand, One order of Spaghetti, coming right up. Game 2 - Go to Mentor plan, He sided in Scav ooze, tormods, surgicals, the lot. I make men, turn them sideways, and my monks bring it home.

Round 5 - BUG Delver - ID into top 8

quarter Finals - Miracles (Guy in 1st place) - Game 1 - Locked out early, just failed to hit stuff, he got Top-balance lock and JTMS, Both do nothing for a while, as he slowly beats me to death with a Snapcaster. Game 2 - mentor plan, Turn 1, petal, petal, Cavern on human, Play mentor, git probe, make monk. beat down before he can get anything into play. Game 3 - Still on mentor, make mentor, eats removal, Make bob, bounced by jace for a few turns, Keep attempting these sort of plays, guy horribly misplays some stuff (including Counter spell on an uncounterable Mentor, with RIP out so he can't even get it back later, spends an age trying to fix with 2 brainstorms (1 would have done), terminus all monks and Mentor, Then Entreats some angels to beat me down. - the dream died

First time playing legacy in a year, and can honestly say I have missed it.

Will burst onions again soon. And a massive thank you to you guys for the help getting this deck together.

Edit: Deck List

Greg Hoole – Tin Fins – 5th-8th

Spells:

4 Entomb

2 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Shallow Grave

4 Lotus Petal

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

1 Reanimate

4 Gitaxian Probe

2 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual

3 Goryo’s Vengeance

1 Tendrils of Agony

Creatures:

1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn

1 Children of Korlis

2 Griselbrand

Land:

Tundra

1 Bayou

4 Polluted Delta

3 Bloodstained Mire

1 Swamp

1 Scrubland

4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

3 Dark Confidant

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Monastery Mentor

2 Cavern of Souls

2 Chain of Vapour

[DNSolver]

hoolegr - great job on the top 8!

I have a question on the rounds: How did you lose to Delver with a reanimated Griz on board? I think you don't even draw 7 once you get it in play, you just attack every turn and they can't really race.

Edit: unless the "reanimate" you describe is just shorthand for Shallow Grave / Goryo's Vengeance...?

[CabalTherapy]

Round 3 - RUG delver - Game 1, Play underground sea, Entomb (reanimate in hand), he Wastlands my Underground sea, hit petal, reanimate, Draw 7, Fail to find land, lose to delver. Game 2 - Turn 1 ritual, entomb, Re-animate Gbrand, he fails to flip delver and scoops. Game 3 - Fail to Find anything, try to go off, hit Force, force, Daze. Cry into the plate where my onions should have been.

Why drawing cards in game 1 after Reanimate? You have a 7/7 livelink flyer against Canadian on turn two and he doesn't have a card on the board, you're on 12 life. Easy game from there.

btw:
That's similar to Cendric P.'s move in the last open against UR Delver with Reanimator in round 9 at 6-2. He exhumes Griselbrand and immediately draws 7 cards and passes the turn without making some play. (he bricked on the following turns as well) Why? He deserved to be outraced by Delvers, Swiftspear, and a Stormchaser making the lifeloss of 7 the crucial part of this game.

[Acclimation]

Lingering Souls?

Evasive fliers that trigger Prowess seem like a good time. Yes, the flashback can get hosed by the gy hate people bring in against us, but sometimes 2 1/1 can be enough.

Other (admittedly shitty) ideas, since we're brainstorming:

Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Pros:
Can come down quickly with Ritual
Creates 2/2 Flyin Vampires
+1 gives our dudes lifelink and a power boost throughout our opponents turn
Emblem (if game goes stupidly long) makes it hard for opponent to establish board
Planeswalkers seem tougher to deal with right now, and nobody would expect it from us
Cons:
Costs 4
Making a token puts it into bolt range
Can't just churn out tokens

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Pros:
+ creates tokens
Tokens have lifelink
Early emblem makes entire team larger for rest of game
Ult is easy to get to and can lock up game
Can use Ritual to get it out quick
Cons:
4 cost again
tokens are non evasive 1/1
lower loyalty cost

Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 cmc
Can nab us creatures
Large starting loyalty means we can snag almost any creature on next turn
Cons:
Doesn't effect board on first turn

Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Makes dudes
Can be a dude
Makes dudes bigger
Cons:
Costs 4
Double white

Elspeth Knight Errant
Makes a dude
Makes one dude bigger and evasive
Cons:
See Gideon's cons


I'm suggesting planeswalkers since we want a continuous source of advantage, and also more threats to add to the board with mentor. All of the ones I listed create board presence, and can be cast somewhat easily in our deck. None of these are probably the correct answer, but let's leave no stone un-turned here.

[hoolegr]

hoolegr - great job on the top 8!

I have a question on the rounds: How did you lose to Delver with a reanimated Griz on board? I think you don't even draw 7 once you get it in play, you just attack every turn and they can't really race.

Edit: unless the "reanimate" you describe is just shorthand for Shallow Grave / Goryo's Vengeance...?

It may have been on that game, crappy memory and poor note taking for that one. I know the game I did "Reanimate" turn 2 using Reanimate, he just scooped. So more likely it was a Single turn use, and fail to find a mana source to do anything else.

Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote Originally Posted by CabalTherapy View Post
Why drawing cards in game 1 after Reanimate? You have a 7/7 livelink flyer against Canadian on turn two and he doesn't have a card on the board, you're on 12 life. Easy game from there.

btw:
That's similar to Cendric P.'s move in the last open against UR Delver with Reanimator in round 9 at 6-2. He exhumes Griselbrand and immediately draws 7 cards and passes the turn without making some play. (he bricked on the following turns as well) Why? He deserved to be outraced by Delvers, Swiftspear, and a Stormchaser making the lifeloss of 7 the crucial part of this game.[/QUOTE]

Think it was a single turn re-animation, rather than "reanimate" itself this time. My poor word choice

Edit: Removed other reply with same answer

[Richard Cheese]

Personally I think Bob and Mentor are really all we need for a postboard aggro strategy. It leaves a lot of slots open for those games where the combo still makes more sense. I think if you really wanted more threats to go with Mentor, I'd look at Delver first. Yes it's not that resilient, but it also gives you a turn 1 aggressive play that really has to be dealt with, giving you a bit of breathing room before you need to drop Mentor.

[phazonmutant]

Personally I think Bob and Mentor are really all we need for a postboard aggro strategy. It leaves a lot of slots open for those games where the combo still makes more sense. I think if you really wanted more threats to go with Mentor, I'd look at Delver first. Yes it's not that resilient, but it also gives you a turn 1 aggressive play that really has to be dealt with, giving you a bit of breathing room before you need to drop Mentor.

I outlined some reasons why Bob had been underperforming for me. Has your experience with him been different? In which matchups?

I did consider Delver, but from experience playing Delver in the sideboard of Storm, it really sucks. Delver doesn't create any sort of inevitability, just a somewhat variant and slow clock. With no reach and few other creatures, a 6+ turn clock is not good enough. They can deal with it easily by just playing a removal spell or flying blocker - it doesn't snowball advantage like Mentor, Bob, or Stoneforge.

[Richard Cheese]

I outlined some reasons why Bob had been underperforming for me. Has your experience with him been different? In which matchups?

I did consider Delver, but from experience playing Delver in the sideboard of Storm, it really sucks. Delver doesn't create any sort of inevitability, just a somewhat variant and slow clock. With no reach and few other creatures, a 6+ turn clock is not good enough. They can deal with it easily by just playing a removal spell or flying blocker - it doesn't snowball advantage like Mentor, Bob, or Stoneforge.

My only legacy experience in the past several months has just been trolling this site and talking to .dk from time to time. I played sealed with some college kids like 3 weeks ago though, so I got that going for me.

I agree Delver isn't really where we want to be, I was just making the case that I'd rather have a cheap, disposable threat over something like a 4cmc planeswalker. It also may be that he's better because of Mentor because if they're countering/removing/blocking Delver, that's clearing the way for the real threat. He's the feint to get them off-balance before that right hook comes in.

Then again, I could make the same case for Bob. If the problem is people leaving in removal, I feel like just boarding into 4 creatures isn't going to make it any better, unless you're playing some kind of protection. I guess we could just jump on the bandwagon and run Chalice. We can even cast it T1 off Petal!

Or if it's an issue of Mentor Fuel, there's always Howling Mine!

[alastair]

I may well regret this suggestion!! but I have the hope Asylum Visitor (3/1 Hellbent Arena) might be playable (might... and will likely but unsurprised when proven to be terrible). Whilst not as reliable as Bob, I find myself without cards all too often, and 3 power is strong.

Having tested Delver with Serindib, Illusionary, and Sea Drake. The 1 for 1 aggro plan, despites individual cards efficiently in both U and B guises, was awful. Would be interested to hear if people get an aggro plan other than Mentor that feels good.

[Darkenslight]

IMO, Asylum Visitor is a much more interesting card for refueling post-disruption, but it's not at the level of Bob, simply because it does not draw cards consistently.

[alastair]

IMO, Asylum Visitor is a much more interesting card for refueling post-disruption, but it's not at the level of Bob, simply because it does not draw cards consistently.

Of that there is no dispute. He does however play very well with Lilly (madness) and is safer when you board 1/2 reanimate 1/2 man-plan keeping the 8/15 drops.

[Richard Cheese]

Oh if only Duskmantle Seer didn't cost 4. I guess there's always good ol' Phyrexian Arena if the life loss from Bob is too much.

If we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, we could technically cast Narset Transcendent. Not only can she draw additional cards, but she can double up spells for more Mentor activations as well. Rebounding cantrips doesn't seem like the worst thing ever.

[phazonmutant]

I played the Counterbalance sideboard to 3-1 yesterday at the CardKingdom weekly (~30 people this time). Twitch VODs are here: https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/58687822 (some skipped), https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/58696676 (around 1:50:00)
Sideboard:
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top // 2 main
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dread of Night
2 Serenity
1 Teferi's Realm

The Counterbalances were sweet and I think better than Bob, but I think I'd prefer the Stoneforge package. The Counterbalances don't really leave room for Flusterstorms, and that came to bite me in an unfortunate match against Omniscience. Counterbalance was useless. A friend played my Stoneforge build to 4-0, beating the same Omniscience player. His sideboard:
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Flusterstorm

We both agree that both were better than Bob, but the TinFins maindeck still is great. I'm starting to wonder if it might just make sense to move Mentors to the main though...

[alaska]

I played the Counterbalance sideboard to 3-1 yesterday at the CardKingdom weekly (~30 people this time). Twitch VODs are here: https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/58687822 (some skipped), https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/58696676 (around 1:50:00)
Sideboard:
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top // 2 main
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dread of Night
2 Serenity
1 Teferi's Realm

The Counterbalances were sweet and I think better than Bob, but I think I'd prefer the Stoneforge package. The Counterbalances don't really leave room for Flusterstorms, and that came to bite me in an unfortunate match against Omniscience. Counterbalance was useless. A friend played my Stoneforge build to 4-0, beating the same Omniscience player. His sideboard:
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Flusterstorm

We both agree that both were better than Bob, but the TinFins maindeck still is great. I'm starting to wonder if it might just make sense to move Mentors to the main though...

Glad to hear the counterbalance plan was at least decent - I've been chewing on that idea for a couple months, but never had the gumption to try it.

The mentors in the main idea - now THAT is intruiging. I think we need to ask ourselves if turning on our opponent's removal G1 is something we actually care about.

Also provides some interesting 'leveling' questions when it comes time to sideboard.

[ThomasDowd]

We both agree that both were better than Bob, but the TinFins maindeck still is great. I'm starting to wonder if it might just make sense to move Mentors to the main though...

Makes for some interesting sideboard design space.

[.dk]

We both agree that both were better than Bob, but the TinFins maindeck still is great. I'm starting to wonder if it might just make sense to move Mentors to the main though...

I was toying around a while back of basically trying out a "pre-boarded" maindeck with mentors in the main. if nothing else than to just get used to combat math, cause i'm very much not used to that anymore. ;) Never quite got around to it and I've been playing other decks lately.

I'm fascinated though that you guys are finding that counterbalance and SFM are superior to Bob with Mentors. I suppose I need to play some of those sometime.

[quadich]

Hey guys,

I am sort of new to tin fins but determined to play it. I was looking through some of the posts here (not all of them so i am unsure if it has been asked before). I do get the feeling that while the maindeck seems to be somewhat set in stone (with maybe 5-6 cards differing here and there), the sideboard is still subject to constant change. Since i do not own the cardpool to freely switch back and forth between boardplans, i was wondering what the most solid configuration looks like in your opinion. I am sure its mentor +xyz or something, but before buying any possible iteration of xyz i would like to ask you,as experts. :)

[DNSolver]

Guys,

What are some thoughts about Traverse the Ulvenwald ?

I've been playing this deck online a bit and the real lynchpin in the deck are the Entombs. I have been playing 2 Buried Alive over the typical discard number 5 and 6. Buried Alive can grab 3 Griselbrands (which outright beats DRS with a Shallow Grave) if you have 3 Griselbrands, or if you're only running 2 can grab Griselbrand with Children of Korlis directly under it. Perhaps Traverse would offer some good options?

Edit: Also, what are thoughts on the power of Unmask in this kind of deck? It appears to be popular in these decks in Japan (linked below):

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07565S/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD02215W/

[Echelon]

Well, it's a sorcery so no neat tricks with triggers on the stack to achieve temporary Delirium. That means you'll probably have to make do with instant, sorcery, land and artifact (assuming the problem is you can't find/resolve the Entomb you need to get a creature in your GY). I don't know if it'll work. And after finding a creature you still need a way to discard it.