Against Reanimator, I side out all good targets for Reanimate. (I used to side in Faerie Macabre)Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Just my opinion of course, but since they're generally faster than us I don't like to help them. FWIW, I remember once having an opponent Reanimator land one of mine, and one of theirs, within their first two turns. It's pretty hard to come back from Elesh & Griselbrand!
True, but the matchup is so lopsided in their favor you might as well still try to combo them and land an Iona on Black.Against Reanimator, I side out all good targets for Reanimate. (I used to side in Faerie Macabre)
Just my opinion of course, but since they're generally faster than us I don't like to help them. FWIW, I remember once having an opponent Reanimator land one of mine, and one of theirs, within their first two turns. It's pretty hard to come back from Elesh & Griselbrand!
Brought dredge to a casual tournament last night. List is the one from my above post. Was a bit skeptical/nervous as I am still fairly new to the deck. But here we go
R1 Spanish Inquisition
G1 I was on the draw. I had a great hand. Went land, led, breakthrough, flash back looting and took over from there.
G2 Got lucky on the fact that he whiffed a bit. And DR + Iona naming black was enough.
Not much to say here. It's pretty much just a race.
-2 Careful Study 1 Land
+2 DR 1 Iona
2-0 and 1-0 for the night
R2 Eldrazi with White splash
This guy is also a vintage player and has played against dredge a lot more times than I've actually played it. So it was safe to say I had my work cut out.
G1 He plays thorn I lead with Pimp and pass. He plays temple into mimic. I discard grave troll get an ichorid in the yard but not much else action going on. Then thought knot seer joins the party and he attacks for 4. I hit a couple of bridges off the next dredge but no narcomoebas or therapy . He plays his MD containment priest so at this point i'm in trouble. Then i'm forced to block his mimic and bridge gets exiled and i lose on the following turn. Safe to say I misplayed a lot there but at least I know now.
G2 Can't remember as much of this one but it was similar. Kept a shaky hand, got unlucky with dredges and he was too fast.
-2 Careful Study -1 Pimp
+2 DR +1 Blazing Archon
I didn't see any endless ones luckily. Need to practice this matchup a lot more and i'm fairly sure looking back I could have sided a bit better.
0-2 and 1-1 for the night.
R3 Reanimator
I keep losing die rolls and am on the draw again.
G1 He opts not to thoughtsieze t1 missing the LED but he has a counter for the breakthrough. I flashback looting then therapy his brainstorm away. I make enough zombies that griselbrand doesn't get him back in the game.
G2 Turn 2 elesh norn plus griselbrand.
G3 Same thing.
I wouldn't mind some faerie macabre for this matchup. Also having a FKZ would have helped G3 before he gets out elesh norn.
-1 Breakthrough - 1 Careful Study -1 Ichorid - 1 Pimp
+2 DR +1 Blazing Archon +1 Iona
1-2 and 1-2 for the night.
Going forward will definitely add a couple of copies of DR to the main and cut a land.
sooo i intentionally drew into 9th this past weekend at the Baltimore Legacy Classic :/ going into the last round i had a 4% lead in tiebreakers over the guy who finished 8th so i thought i was safely in but i guess through some absurdly bad luck i got jumped by him in the final standings...a 6% swing in tiebreaks against me in the last round is almost unheard of but whatever, shit happens. played the same list i played in the recent IQ which i posted a few pages back, for reference.
That's bad luck! Still really good effort though
Also I noticed you have the full set of firestorm in the list. What's your thoughts on the card.
C
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Bad luck, man. Do you ever felt the absence of Abrupt Decay in your 75s?
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
RE: the full set of Firestorms and the lack of Abrupt Decay:
I run the full set of Firestorms in the sideboard because frankly I think it is the 2nd most important card in the entire SB, just behind Nature's Claim. It is there primarily for Deathrite Shaman decks, but can also be sided in in some number vs non-Deathrite Delver decks as you can sometimes remove their entire clock and it is an uncounterable discard outlet as well. Also it is basically the only way you have of dealing with a resolved Containment Priest (or Peacekeeper LOL, and other than Therapy before they get to 2 whole mana), and shines in the Death and Taxes matchup as a result a of Containment Priest existing or often just killing 2+ of their guys while facilitating your own game plan by discarding.
As for Abrupt Decay, I had tried it and Lotus Petals SB in local tournaments for a few months and found myself sometimes siding it in rather than the 3rd/4th Nature's Claim/Firestorm, but it didnt seem that great honestly and I've never missed them since going back. I run 9 rainbow lands MD and 1 more SB, and I've even seen people run fewer total, and even with some number of Lotus Petals SB it still seems incredibly optimistic to me to think that you're at all often going to have 2 rainbow mana sources with an Abrupt Decay in hand and that you needed to both be uncounterable and to be cast right then. FWIW Abrupt Decay doesnt hit Leyline of the Void, which has been showing up in some Eldrazi SBs (their GY hate is either that or Crypt/Faerie Macabre) as opposed to how it had been absent from the format forever until recently. It doesnt seem wrong per se to play some number of Abrupt Decay, but its just not my personal preference I guess and I just am overall not too impressed with it. My plan vs decks with Rest in Peace is to either Therapy them before they get to 2 whole mana (much easier if were on the play, as is often the case game 3), or to try and snag it with a Nature's Claim. Like if they draw a hand that can counter enough spells and have the hate too you will mostly just lose those games no matter what and you just have to accept that going in when you play Dredge. Similarly against Eldrazi, if they have Leyline/Crypt/Faerie Macabre and Chalice at 1 these are also games that we mostly will just lose no matter what and have to accept going in, and I dont think Abrupt Decay would help to turn these unwinnable situations around enough to make up for having to cut any number of Claims/Firestorms from the SB.
Firestorm is crap imo. I think people think its good because we only remember the times when we blow out our opponent with it. All other times its pretty mediocre plus is just gets way worse when you have to mulligan which this deck does often. Not to mention the nombo with BfB and if you're playing 4 in the board are you realistically going to bring in all 4 alongside the anti-hate cards (Nature's Claim)? I only bring this point up because you mentioned D&T. This deck also plays RIP, Enlightened Tutor, Wastelands, and Thalia outside of Contaiment Priest that all do things that interact with you. Boarding in 4 Firestorms is not going to win you this matchup. And I don't see any consistency if I plan on boarding in all firestorm and some number of claims; too many cards that don't accelerate your game plan.
I picked up the deck for the first time since Seattle this weekend. Didn't do well, but that's due to some questionable decisions I made, and three insane top decks by my opponents. Some thoughts on the current discussion.
Firestorm is not needed now. Especially if you are still running multiple PImps. Delver is at a very low ebb due to a hostile meta. So an uncounterable discard is less of a need. There is still no Aggro outside of Stompy decks. And beating the few Tribal decks hinges far more on speed and ability to clear hate, than their actual clock.
Decay lets you deal with every hate permanent besides Leyline. Including Priest, which is another reason to discard Firestorm. That alone should free up slots to allow you to deal with Leyline. Outside of Thalia effects, I've never had an issue casting it. Especially when you figure the one to two turns(paly or draw dependant) you get where your opponent can't even Waste you if they are trying to cast RiP or Priest. Cage is probably 4th among hate cards right now. But being able to start your GY, and guarantee you can get rid of Cage whenever you need is invaluable.
I do not like Street Wraith. I do believe that Ichorid has become the most important threat in the deck, and that you do need the Black creatures for continuation of threat. But I believe that you will do better with PImp. He lets you play around Deathrite almost as well as Wraith, and is far better against hate. Forcing bad decisions with Surgical, which Wraith does nothing against if the enemy isn't a moron, and letting you earmark mana on turn one in the face of hate. That is, playing him before you remove the hate, so you have a ready discard outlet if they tax your mana. I'm back on straight Quad, -1 PImp, +1 land(or Petal, to save SB room).
That said, Surgical is by far the most common hate seen currently. And the one it seems least addressed in sideboards. I'm testing a few Unmasks back in the SB. To deal with Surgical of course, and the counters of most decks that play it. But also for other Combo decks, and for the half of the Eldrazi decks that play Macabre over Leyline.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I've been testing Memory's Journey to address Surgical. And while the situation hasn't come up I do like its inclusion as its reminiscent to Ancient Grudge in that I can carry out my original gameplan without needing it in my opener.
I'm running it as a 1-of as well. I actually had a game this weekend against DeathBlade where I won game one. Game two, I open with Unmask, which he Pierces. I then go land, Therapy, since he's obviously protecting hate. He Forces, and I pass the turn. He goes land, go. I play Petal, land, Looting, discarding a dredger and Journey. I then play Breakthrough with G open. He lets it resolve, and Surgicals Narco on the stack. I Journey one, and in response he Surgicals it. He then loses to Ichorids and Bridges since he only has land and TNN left in hand. One of the few great hands I had on the day. Especially running two Unmask, and one Journey. But it goes to show how having direct answers to hate, like Decay, destroys "Protect the Queen" hands from Blue players.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Nice game there. How many cards did you bring in against the Deathblade deck? Sounds like you boarded in Unmask, Petals, Abrupts, and the Journey. What did you end up taking out?
I feel like I should give Unmask another whirl its been a while and I do like that it can potentially help us out against the other faster combo decks.
I tried running 2 Petals main over the 3rd PIMP, and 13th Land. Figured it could save SB space, and potentially give some game one accell. Unfortunately it hurts consistancy more than I want. You can't keep Petal only hands blind, or vs Delver. I brought in 2 Unmask, 1 Journey, 2 Decay, 1 Dread (still can't fit one main) and 1 Cabal Pit. Which I added as an extra land to cast Decay, and an out to Priest or Shaman. This Deathblade deck ran 1 along with their Surgical like most. I cut 4 LED, 1 Loot, and 2 Bthrough.
Unmask seemed good as a 2 of. I used to always run 4, but I've found its better as an ancillary or complimentary strategy than a primary one. The 2/1 split of it and Journey is the best I've found to deal with Surgical without being forced to remove any of the cards Surgical targets.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
How about the idea of using a single Riftstone Portal in the sideboard to help cast Abrupt Decay using Cephalid Coliseum? Vintage lists use it to cast Serenity (2CMC) using Bazaar.
Hello :),
Since i have played some dredge myself, i have been wanting to ask: why not play grudge/ray? Unlike natures Claim (which i do play in addition) we dont have to have them in our opener to be efficient. My thoughprocess here is that, aside from Grafdiggers cage we can always reply to the gravehate they play. If we dont have them in our grave by then we can still go back to topdecking for it. Also the cmc 2 makes dodging cb/top easier and dodges chalice 1 of course. Furthermore if drawn they dont need 2 rainbow mana to be played, which feels way better compared to decay. Since we have to dredge whether or not we expect say a relic or a rip anyways they feel much better to me (not like anyone ever not cracked the relic in response to a natures claim) also revealing a grudge while he has a relic out forces him to crack it, which is nice. Of course i could be missing something important, but i am not seeing what that would be. Also if you were to maindeck a dread return + target which one would that be?
Edit: i do acknowledge the fact that decay can deal with annoying creatures(priest) and is always a better answer to gravehate when cast. I just feel its too unlikely/difficult to cobble together
The principal difficulties behind Grudge and Ray are that they can only hit artifacts OR enchantments溶ot both預nd that they're actually not that useful against most of the cards that really shut down our deck.
Think of it this way: if you have Ray of Revelation in your graveyard and your opponent casts Rest in Peace, what do you do? You can cast Ray to kill the RiP, but the RiP's "exile everything" trigger still happens. So you won't have to worry about future discards or dredges, but you've still lost your whole graveyard.
Ancient Grudge is even worse because the artifacts we most need to worry about seeing either yield the same end result as the above scenario (e.g., Relic of Progenitus burns out our 'yard) or, worse, they stop us from casting Grudge simply by being there (Grafdigger's Cage).
Neither card deals with the worst threats like Surgical Extraction and Extirpate.
I still have a Ray in my sideboard because I do like the idea of having an extra answer to Leyline and Pals, but I think Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are pretty narrow.
I'm in the anti-Decay camp. It requires more lands or alternative mana sources than I'd be comfortable running, and I don't think there are many situations in which it's our card of choice (crucially, it doesn't hit Leyline of the Void). Being uncounterable is nice, but I don't think it's a card our deck is built to handle on only eight lands that could produce the necessary pair of colors.
well yeah i get that. but we usually deal with either artifacts or enchantments not both so with some complementary nature claims it is still rock solid. Also Natures claim still has the issue of them burning our yard with relic or RiP so we have to deal with that either way(unless annul becomes a thing ^^). So our graveyard gets nuked either way. the upside i see with grudge/ray is that they are okay in our hand but also good when they are in our yard (aside from grafdiggers cage). So i feel its less dependent on the hand we keep which is nice ( i think). With 2 ray, 2 grudge and 3-4 claims we still have 5-6 answers to any thread. I dont think boarding in anything beyond 5-6 cards is overboarding. I also play memorys journey to fight surgical ( extripate blows us out no matter what we do). But regarding permanent hate i'd say ray/grudge are pretty much ideal which is why i was mystified to find that few people play them.
Simply asserting that "Firestorm is crap" makes me question who you are and how much/if any experience and results you actually have with the deck "Que", other than just posting on here a ton and having a Breakthrough as your avatar, no offense. But yeah, to address the points you were trying to make: against a deck like Death and Taxes I would SB in 3 Claim, 3 Firestorm and the 10th rainbow land for game 2 (assuming we won game 1), because they could/do have Rest in Peace/Cage and/or Containment Priest, like you said. These numbers can be adjusted 4-2 in favor of either Claim or Firestorm for game 3 depending on what hate you lose to/see. Firestorm is also very useful against Deathrite decks, which I realize Abrupt Decay can also kill, but at least a full turn slower, and simply being able to Firestorm on your first turn or their end step to kill a Deathrite and additionally discard dredgers or other cards you just want in the GY can be a game winning play all on its own. And even if you go land, go vs. a Deathrite deck and they dont have it and say Ponder on their turn 1, you can still uncounterably discard 2 cards end step with it, shock your opponent and self, and be ready to untap and start dredging/go off if you have draw effects in hand. Also, you usually cast Firestorm during one of the first few turns of the game if at all, so this "nonbo" with Bridge from Below is an almost nonexistent scenario that pretty much never comes up, and if it came down to it id happily trade 1 exiled Bridge if it meant killing a Deathrite Shaman. The only deck you snap board in 4 Firestorms in against is Elves, which is one of our best matchups anyways, but also one that becomes so much better after SB because of this. The full set can also be useful against D&T if you see game 2 that theyre on more creature-based hate, or against Grixis Delver decks with Deathrite who have Surgicals as their hate rather than artifacts. I could see going down to 3 Firestorms honestly, but the assertion that "Firestorm is crap" is laughable to me and reflects a lack of knowledge and/or experience, imo.
Memory's Journey is also a card I've just never thought was good enough. While Surgical does seem to be the most common hate atm, its also hate that is generally very hard to do anything about, and a single one is often not enough to beat us anyways. Plus, people usually just Surgical the first Narcomoeba/Bridge/Ichorid you hit, or try to take your only dredger at the beginning in hopes of preventing our engine from ever getting started. So it seems unlikely/optimistic to me that at the time they are casting their Surgical that you would have already hit your 1 Memory's Journey and have G untapped. It would be a good card to SB in for the Reanimator matchup, which is one of our worst, but that benefit still doesnt seem worth it to me. Against Reanimator i just SB in my other Dread Return, Iona, and FKZ and hope to outdraw/race them (since we just straight cant beat an Elesh Norn period unless we have one too and get it on the table first).
I do however like the idea of Unmask in the SB and may try that out in place of Ingot Chewer/Ancient Grudge, and am also not opposed to testing out Abrupt Decay and Lotus Petals again in the future. Basically the cards I know I want in my SB are: 1 Dread Return (1 MD), Iona, FKZ, Gemstone Mine (10th rainbow land). The other 11 cards for me right now are 4 Claim, 4 Firestorm, 2 Ingot Chewer, 1 Ancient Grudge, but for the other 11 slots I could see trying some configuration of 2 Unmask, 2-3 Firestorm, 2-3 Abrupt Decay, 2-3 Nature Claim, 1-2 Lotus Petal and maybe a Chain of Vapor (another answer to Leyline if cutting down to 2 Claims) or an Elesh Norn, which I've been thinking about bringing back as the 3rd DR target. Cabal Pit also seems interesting as a land that can help cast Abrupt Decay and potentially answer a Deathrite Shaman or Containment Priest, though I'm not sure where it could fit in.
Que? I'll just leave this here:
https://youtu.be/FspXTnBeWd8
You could also look up Joseph Moreno on the Top8 sites.
Peace out!
Both Leyline and RiP nullify it. And it would have to take a non-land slot, since it can't cast anything in play. Other than that it seems good.
I don't believe Decay is needed right now for hate. I added it when Cage and RiP were top threats, and Priest had just hit the scene. RiP is still second, behind Surgical in threat penetration in the meta. But, as most Dredge players know, it's simply better to race RiP than to try to remove and recover in most cases. First problem is, against Blue decks, that's just not feasible. They will either use their counters to stop you from going off before RiP lands, or they will protect it with them should they land it before you can threaten them. On that note, in those cases, I've never had difficulty having time to assemble the mana to cast Decay. If you get to that position with Claim, you lose.
Second problem is Eldrazi. Chalice is a serious issue for this deck, which Claim doesn't answer. And there are several Stompy and Tezz-like decks that are piggybacking on Eldrazi's success running Chalice as well. On the flip side, there's decks running stuff like Bridge and Peacekeeper and the like to combat the Eldrazi, which Decay answers as well. The other problem, is that about half the Eldrazi decks are running Leyline. Where Claim obviously is superior. So that's maybe 2% of any tournament running a card that they only have, at most, 40% chance of casting. Ever. Don't know how much I'd devote, or warp my SB to answer this. Be like Eldrazi warping their deck to deal with the 1-of Moat popping up in Miracles decks now.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
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