[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Tom4ik]

@Ralf - I am a huge fan of 3 Ptruths in a junk fit deck. I play 2 in my bug deck and would want to run 3 if I had any life gain aside from Drs. That card is really busted and a card this deck has been looking for a long time.

[Ricardio]

@Ralf - I am a huge fan of 3 Ptruths in a junk fit deck. I play 2 in my bug deck and would want to run 3 if I had any life gain aside from Drs. That card is really busted and a card this deck has been looking for a long time.

I agree, Pruths is strong. Drawing more cards is almost always good!

[sdematt]

I agree, Pruths is strong. Drawing more cards is almost always good!

I only speak the (painful) truth when I say card is strong in all 3 colour decks playing black.

[uncletiggy]

@ echelon- i really want to try skimming on white sources and increasing my turn one non fetch green count. My play style and card selections specifically the life gain has shown me that playing around stifle daze and pierce leaves me not wanting white till the mid game. Plains #2 is hands down the worst card in any non stonefore or baneslayer builds.

@ralf im also not sold on glissa or merens nessecity. ive always played nightmare its the reason i picked up the deck in the first place and currently glissa is getting a shot but i think finks is the card the list really wants. I have never tried knight but if finks and glissa dont work out ill try -1 bayou -1 glissa +1 karakas +1 knight. For some reason i dont own any vindicates that will change tonight tho. Pulse has always been my catch all crutch and its served me well. Sweeping up tokens is no joke ill take any potential 2 for ones i can get.

@warden- i can't bring myself to play the counterable 4cmc extraction effects leaning on discard into surgical feels like it has wider applications across other bad matchups. Shriekmaw is one of my all time favorite cards.

[pettdan]

@Sdematt: Sigarda no 2 does seem interesting, it's a low investment (1 sb/main slot) which helps us apply our best threat in the Miracles matchup (and BUG-x). Worth testing. I tend to prefer S.Games or Tsunami since they provide relevant threats in combo matchups [too].

@Slaughter Games: I've also been sceptical about SG, basically since Miracles started playing Mentor which made it harder shutting down their threats. Its other main application was vs Sneak and Show, and I agree that that deck seems very strong in the current meta but it's not being played a lot and thus the value of SG drops. In the SnS matchup it was crucial to have a lucky early Therapy to delay them and then an SG to follow up with; from there the game wasn't over but you had reasonable chances. However, I haven't found other cards that are valuable vs both grindy control decks and combo decks (well see comment on blue splash below). I think land destruction may be one such alternative, if it's plenty of land destruction (like e.g. Tsunami vs blue decks - Storm, Miracles, Grixis).

@Ralf: thanks for that wall of text! Keep it coming! Interesting comments about Abeyance, being a cantrip may make it playable in the maindeck and if hiding it with a top it can actually win vs Storm, vs Miracles it messes with key spells. I'm guessing it won't be strong enough to justify sb slots.
I'm also into KotR and Vindicate.. I consider a blue splash over the red for 3 Invasive Surgery (and if I go for KotR+Vindicates+sb wastelands maybe even 2 sb stifles). It will take a few turns to get Delirium, and unreliably at that, but it's a counterspell from turn 1 and can be hidden with top. And a potential SG without card disadvantage. It should be relevant in more matchups.

[Diogo37]

Do you have any sideboard guide?
I follow the topic have some time and do not remember seeing any.

[Ralf]

@Pettdan:

You have raised an interesting point that we shall discuss later:
How should we play Nic Fit ?
Shall we try to hedge against combo MD or not ?

[Bobmans]

Do you have any sideboard guide?
I follow the topic have some time and do not remember seeing any.

Without going further into detail today, since i am hammered (TGIF), i'll just leave behind the March meta anyone could reflect his boarding choice on to.

Pos - Archetype - Points
1º - Eldrazi - 238
2º - Miracle Control - 211
3º - Grixis Pyromancer - 207
4º - Berserk Stompy - 133
5º - Death and Taxes - 117
6º - Lands - 107
7º - BUG Control - 98
8º - Team America - 98
9º - Elves - 91
10º - Burn - 79
11º - OmniTell - 72
12º - Ad Nauseam Tendrils - 69
13º - Nic Fit - 59
14º - Jund - 58
15º - Blade Control - 56
16º - The Rock - 49
17º - Sneak Attack - 48
18º - Reanimator - 47
19º - Threshold UGr - 45
20º - MUD - 44
21º - Merfolks - 40
22º - Goblins - 40
23º - 4c Delver - 38
24º - Maverick - 35
25º - Post Ramp - 33
26º - Painters - 32
27º - Dredge - 31
28º - UR Burn - 29
29º - Food Chain - 27
30º - Tin Fins - 24
31º - DeathBlade - 24
32º - Dragon Stompy - 17
33º - Aggro Loam - 16
34º - Affinity - 15
35º - Deadguy Ale - 15
36º - Bant Aggro - 14
37º - Belcher - 13
38º - Dark Depths - 12
39º - UR Aggro - 8
40º - Pox - 8
41º - Stax - 7
42º - Tezzeret Control - 7
43º - Infect - 7
44º - Enchantress - 7
45º - Threshhold UGr - 6

[Scott]

However, I haven't found other cards that are valuable vs both grindy control decks and combo decks (well see comment on blue splash below). I think land destruction may be one such alternative, if it's plenty of land destruction (like e.g. Tsunami vs blue decks - Storm, Miracles, Grixis).

The cards in my Junk Nic Fit SB that fit that bill are Null Rod/Stony Silence for things like Miracles/Storm/12 Post/D&T if you're cool with it neutering your Top, Gaddock Teeg+Sylvan Safekeeper for various control and combo stuff, and Matsu-Tribe Sniper if you want to test something unusual, for combo like Sneak & Show and control like Lands, if you consider that grindy control.

[Tao]

That is one of the advantages of Jund Nic Fit, you get Red Elemental Blasts and Slaughter Games against Combo and Miracle. So post board against Combo you have 4 Thoughtseizes, 4 Therapies, 4 REBs, 2-3 Slaughter Games, 3 Lilianas and 2 Surgicals. This turns combo into a positive matchup in games 2 and 3. And Miracles is also much easier with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 REB, 3 Liliana and 2-3 Slaughter Games.

I made a SB guide in the original Nic Fit OP for Fire lists. It is like 5 years old but in general I dont think much changed.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983

The trick with Jund against Miracles is to side out Explorer and Therapy. For Rhinos, I am sure you can make a decent strategy too, but I lack a bit experience with those.

[Scott]

That is one of the advantages of Jund Nic Fit, you get Red Elemental Blasts and Slaughter Games against Combo and Miracle. So post board against Combo you have 4 Thoughtseizes, 4 Therapies, 4 REBs, 2-3 Slaughter Games, 3 Lilianas and 2 Surgicals. This turns combo into a positive matchup in games 2 and 3. And Miracles is also much easier with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 REB, 3 Liliana and 2-3 Slaughter Games.

I made a SB guide in the original Nic Fit OP for Fire lists. It is like 5 years old but in general I dont think much changed.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983

The trick with Jund against Miracles is to side out Explorer and Therapy. For Rhinos, I am sure you can make a decent strategy too, but I lack a bit experience with those.

I haven't played Jund Nic Fit so this is just guesswork, but does it commonly feel awkward playing Red Elemental Blast, given that Nic Fit mostly wants to tap out?

[Tao]

I haven't played Jund Nic Fit so this is just guesswork, but does it commonly feel awkward playing Red Elemental Blast, given that Nic Fit mostly wants to tap out?

It has two main purposes that it does very well:

- shoot ANYTHING from combo decks to limit their resources, for example the first Ponder you see, just as an additional way to interact with them early on. This will make Liliana and your other Discard better and maybe give you time to get to Slaughter Games or to draw into more discard.

- keep Jace off the table against Miracles (or maybe snipe a CB on the stack if you dont have Decay).

Jace and Combo are the two main problems of Nic Fit. REB is one of the best cards in the game against Jace. And even though it is not great against Combo, it is at least useful against them which is still a big improvement because you have so many dead maindeck cards against them. So against Miracles it is the perfect answer for their biggest threat and against Combo it is an upgrade from a dead card to a solid card.

Anything else that REB can do, like sniping a FoW, a Brainstorm (especially in response to Therapy) or a Show and Tell is a bonus.

[Diogo37]

Thanks @Tao and @Bobmans

[Bobmans]

Thanks @Tao and @Bobmans

The general idea with the list i posted yesterday is to make a table with it. But what i have not thought about is to generate NicFit "generic" sideboard choices and qualify them as High, Medium and Low impact for every MU OR to grab a "standard" Junk SB and go over the in's and out's for each one of them.

So i'll be doing either somewhere today and with imput of others to improve it.

[jaruri]

I just started playtesting this deck on cockatrice while I build the paper deck, and its hilarious how many people have no idea/forgot what siege rhino does. I've had to tell them to -3 in half my games so far. A+ deck, loving it

[Bobmans]

I haven't played Jund Nic Fit so this is just guesswork, but does it commonly feel awkward playing Red Elemental Blast, given that Nic Fit mostly wants to tap out?

REB has more application then just be reactive. It kills blue creatures and foremost it kills Jace. Also it stops Show and Tell or Counter a FoW on a crucial spell. The card has a very broad application and it only requires 1 mana. But yes, during the first couple turns, holding this card against combo can be awkward.

[Bobmans]

Do you have any sideboard guide?
I follow the topic have some time and do not remember seeing any.

Ok, so. I am working on a sideboard cheat sheet and wanted to share the file i have so far. Because it requires a large amount of time to complete i will keep working on it for it is not complete yet. Any input/discussion is welcome of course. I have made the spreadsheet so that i can easily extract it's content and turn it into a JSON file so i can work with it later on a web based environment. Format wise i decided to build a "stock" list based on a merge of Ralf's latest list and my own. The spreadsheet then follows a boarding strategy that applies on that list. The list holds a couple of cards that are interchangeable. For example, Choke may as well be Tsunami. Bigger changes might be fine, but the core sheet isn't flexible for that. I do have some thoughts on how to make it more dynamical, but that means a lot more work and i still need a "base" to work with. For now, this should suffice for the initial request.

Cheatsheet / Sideboarding.

This is the "stock" list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Knight of the Reliquary // Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Anguished Unmaking // Vindicate // Maelstrom Pulse

2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage // Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Choke // Tsunami

[pettdan]

The cards in my Junk Nic Fit SB that fit that bill are Null Rod/Stony Silence for things like Miracles/Storm/12 Post/D&T if you're cool with it neutering your Top, Gaddock Teeg+Sylvan Safekeeper for various control and combo stuff, and Matsu-Tribe Sniper if you want to test something unusual, for combo like Sneak & Show and control like Lands, if you consider that grindy control.

Thanks for the input, Scott! I really like the Null Rod/Stony Silence for the reasons you mention and play it whenever I can with good deck synergy, but to me SDT seems too important to shut down in the Miracles matchup (they have more varied card selection than us and can draw the top and Brainstorm it away), and I don't think it's good enough to keep in the board for the other matchups only. Vs Storm Canonist is better, they can still go off with rituals throug Rod and vs cloudpost I don't think it slows their mana development enough, also they don't work well with Deed (if you'd want something vs artifacts in fair matchups - or rather Deed already does that job better).. I have P.Needle which overlaps and is good vs Depths/Stage and Infect and vs Miracles you can stop SDT if the game state is good for it otherwise you can stop Jace or Karakas.

Gaddock in my experience does very little vs Miracles, maybe I'll try maindecking him with Safekeeper backup and a Titania. That could be powerful enough in enough matchups to make it maindeck viable. But it takes a lot of slots in a list that wants so much. I do sb Gaddock for Storm and Elves.

The sniper is an interesting find but I wonder if the decks you want it against will board in Pyroclasm or Abrupt Decay, it's a gamble. Or they maindeck Punishing Fire or Elesh Norn. It seems too vulnerable. Maybe it could be played in Maverick next to Mother of Runes, on the other hand they have KotR + Karakas. Will get a copy.

That is one of the advantages of Jund Nic Fit, you get Red Elemental Blasts and Slaughter Games against Combo and Miracle. So post board against Combo you have 4 Thoughtseizes, 4 Therapies, 4 REBs, 2-3 Slaughter Games, 3 Lilianas and 2 Surgicals. This turns combo into a positive matchup in games 2 and 3. And Miracles is also much easier with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 REB, 3 Liliana and 2-3 Slaughter Games.

Thanks for your input too, Tao! I've seen you post similar boards before and it certainly seems like a strong sideboard plan, I never played it in full (only 2 REB's, wasn't convinved but that could be variance) because I've been trying other things and it takes almost all sb space leaving few slots for other troublesome matchups - lands mostly I guess. I think I'll try Punishing Fit soon again, I switched to Rhino Fit due to a heavy lands presence but haven't played against the deck once after changing. I'll probably give your sb a chance in that case, one especially nice aspect of it is all the low cmc's.

[Tao]

Thanks for your input too, Tao! I've seen you post similar boards before and it certainly seems like a strong sideboard plan, I never played it in full (only 2 REB's, wasn't convinved but that could be variance) because I've been trying other things and it takes almost all sb space leaving few slots for other troublesome matchups - lands mostly I guess. I think I'll try Punishing Fit soon again, I switched to Rhino Fit due to a heavy lands presence but haven't played against the deck once after changing. I'll probably give your sb a chance in that case, one especially nice aspect of it is all the low cmc's.

Thanks, yes the SB plan works very well against Combo and Miracle.

But any deck with the goal to use Dark Depths is 100% unwinnable for Punishing Fire versions, in my experience. Dont even bother dedicating SB slots... and if those decks are in your meta, stay away from Punishing Nic Fit.
I also don't know how Fire would work in the current Metagame, have not played in a while. Maybe Rhino is just stronger at the moment. But what I do know is that I have seen some terrible Sideboards in Rhino lists. I think there is a lot of room for improvement on the SB.

A question for the Rhino players: what about Knight of the Reliquary? The old reason to not include him was that he dies to Swords, but when Rhinos die to Swords anyway, could you not play him, too?

[TTX]

I don't play Knight because there aren't many lands to search up to abuse. Rhino dodges Decay and so on.


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