[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Nightmare]

I was under the impression that Landstill was a poor match for thresh, which is why the rise of solidarity made thresh so good, not only because it was a good match but because solidarity made landstill go away and landstill was a very unfavorable match for thresh.

From the original primer in the old Gro thread:

Landstill: This deck is not favored against you, no matter how tough it may seem. Typically Needles will want to hit Wastelands or Factories, leaving them with very few threats. With a Meddling Mage naming Swords, all you have to do is counter Wrath effects and they have a lot of trouble winning the game before you. Don't be afraid to break Standstill, as typically they'll just draw more inefficient cards that don't affect you that much. After board, Armageddon is a wrecking ball when you have a threshold creature on the board, so just save your free counters to defend it and you should be able to take it home without much trouble.

[Bardo]

I was under the impression that Landstill was a poor match for thresh, which is why the rise of solidarity made thresh so good, not only because it was a good match but because solidarity made landstill go away and landstill was a very unfavorable match for thresh.

I've played the match enough times to say it's favorable for Thresh. Nimble Mongoose is a huge pain in the ass and most of the Landstill removal is hellaciously slow. Meddling Mage and Werebear are solid as well.

Landstill's draw is often bad too. Being under heavy board pressure isn't exactly the best time to drop Standstill.

From one of my articles:

Vs. Landstill
+3 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Armageddon
+1 Stifle
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Serum Visions
-1 Intuition
-1 Meddling Mage
-1 Engineered Explosives

Meddling Mage: Swords to Plowshares, Standstill, Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds - depending on the game-state.

Against Landstill, Seal of Cleansing is your all-purpose Swiss Army knife. Seal proactively answers Landstill's two most threatening sources of long-term card advantage: Crucible of Worlds and Standstill. Seal also doubles as creature removal for opposing Mishra's Factories and can destroy Nevinyrral's Disk before it becomes active. Seal of Cleansing is a handy tool indeed.

As for the match, 3cTheshold is the beatdown deck. Drop your Seals to shut down Standstill and prevent Wasteland and Factory recursion with Crucible. And don't be afraid to sacrifice a Seal to destroy itself if you're one card shy of threshold. That play won't win you any awards, but it might be the right move at the time.

With the increased fetchland and cantrip count you can more reliably hit threshold as early as turn 3, though turn 4 is more common.

Consider these opening plays:

Turn 1: Play Flooded Strand; sacrifice Strand to fetch an Island (graveyard count: 1); cast Serum Visions (graveyard: 2).

Turn 2: Play Windswept Heath; sacrifice for a basic Forest (graveyard: 3); play Werebear.

Turn 3: Play Polluted Delta; cast Brainstorm (graveyard: 4); sacrifice Delta for Tropical Island (graveyard: 5); cast Accumulated Knowledge (#1) (graveyard: 6); in response your opponent Wastelands your Tropical Island (graveyard: 7, threshold); attack with Werebear for 4.

Note we've seen six more cards than our opponent by this point and we also have a 5-turn clock to deal with. And that's another way to keep Standstill off the board: put your opponent in the defensive position. But use only as much force as needed, and no more.

Landstill has less removal than you have creatures, and excepting Swords to Plowshares, their removal is slow and clunky (making Daze stronger) and you have more counters and a better draw engine besides.

From the sideboard, Armageddon is brought in, and that is a savage beating against Landstill, especially when you have a threshold creature on the board.

Stifle is also brought in to counter Wasteland and an otherwise "uncounterable" cycling of Decree of Justice. In the worst case Stifle will delay the activation of Nevinyrral's Disk for one turn or serve as cheap land destruction (Stifling a Flooded Strand activation) to a mana hungry deck.

This is a close but favorable match, both before and after sideboarding.

But at this point, it's moot.

Also, wtf at that list? Intuition? Ugh.

[Mad Zur]

Overextending into sweepers is never good against board control. If you think you can get away with it as long as you have a Meddling Mage on StP, that's probably why you guys have more trouble with Rifter than with Landstill.

1 | U/G/w | 17 | 3 | 0 | 4 | 4 - Bardo Version

Since when does the "Bardo Version" run 17 lands and 4 Predict?
In any case, a single tournament with all of three Gro decks without Mage is not the sort of relevant data we would need to conclude anything.

1) To me, he has a positive overal net effect. This means he does more good than harm. Ther are more times when he's been extremely helpful to me than when he's been shit, and the times he's shit are mitigated by scrying, shuffling, chumping, being pitched to FoW. Call them cop-outs, or excuses for bad cards if you will, but I disagree with you, again, due to the net effect.

Net effect relative to what?

2) 2/3 of your games are played with your sideboard in play. I would rather have access to a versatile card which can be amazing for you in all three games, or work around it (or have it be marginal) game one and then utilize my board to find a more specific solution games 2 and 3.

None of this matters. We're talking about the maindeck, which means game one.

Note that in the past, the two cards have been Pithing Needle and Mage, in the opposite configuration.

How is that relevant?

[Nightmare]

Net effect relative to what?

I thought I was pretty clear. He has been amazing far more than he has sucked.

None of this matters. We're talking about the maindeck, which means game one.

If we're focused on Game 1, then you would never have mentioned sideboarding at all, but you have also discussed whether Mage is better in the board, sideboarding strategy with him in the MD, and how he gets sided out every match. You chose to talk about these things, this brings the discussion into the entire match, not just game 1.

How is that relevant?

I mentioned it only to point out that Mage and Needle have similar arguments for and against them in the MD, and that although intuitively that statement is about Mage, it could just as easily have been about Needle.

[Mad Zur]

I thought I was pretty clear. He has been amazing far more than he has sucked.

Been amazing or sucked compared to what alternative?

If we're focused on Game 1, then you would never have mentioned sideboarding at all, but you have also discussed whether Mage is better in the board, sideboarding strategy with him in the MD, and how he gets sided out every match. You chose to talk about these things, this brings the discussion into the entire match, not just game 1.

You're right, but those are two seperate issues, and so far we've been talking about the maindeck. If you want, we can discuss Mage's merit as a sideboard card - in my opinion, it compares unfavorably to Stifle, but I'm not nearly as sure on this issue (I've boarded Mage before, though I wasn't happy with how rarely I boarded it in).

I mentioned it only to point out that Mage and Needle have similar arguments for and against them in the MD, and that although intuitively that statement is about Mage, it could just as easily have been about Needle.

They are similar in this regard, but Mage helps primarily against your best matchups and Needle helps against many of your difficult matchups including the most popular deck in the format.

[ookus2]

The last thing I’d like to do is get in the middle of this Mage MD vs. SB discussion/argument, but is there really nothing better to discuss then this? I believe the deck is very close to being optimized, but is there improvement that could be explored elsewhere? I don't have any new fresh ideas for the deck right now, but part of that is because nothing else is being talked about. Click back a couple of pages and you'll see that I'm not the only one suggesting that we move onto something new. But like I said, I’d rather not get in the middle of this.

[Citrus-God]

The last thing I’d like to do is get in the middle of this Mage MD vs. SB discussion/argument, but is there really nothing better to discuss then this? I believe the deck is very close to being optimized, but is there improvement that could be explored elsewhere? I don't have any new fresh ideas for the deck right now, but part of that is because nothing else is being talked about. Click back a couple of pages and you'll see that I'm not the only one suggesting that we move onto something new. But like I said, I’d rather not get in the middle of this.

I know you think it's boring, but arguing over the decision of Maindecking Meddling Mage in the general metagame maybe the biggest breakthrough in this deck's development, because it decides the following...

1. UGw ThreshGro's reason to splash White in the first place.
2. If those are metagame slots.
3. To prove the deck is resiliant without Mage.
4. To prove Mage's/Needle's viability in the current metagame.
5. To get many view point's on this deck's functions.
6. Those fresh ideas may come if the Meddling Mage debate is decided, as it may open up more free minds to using those open slots for something better. Something that can easily benefit this deck's entire/current development.

What I'm saying is, like the Mental Note/Predict argument, this is one of the most influential debates we've had over card choices in a while. If this debate dies, we will not be sure what is exact purpose of those card choices in the first place.
Yes, I realize the current lists of Threshold are quite optimal, but this deck can still evolve into what it hasnt become of before. Like from White Weenie to Angel Stompy and WWW, Goblin Sligh to Gob-Vantage and FCG, then Vial Goblins, and UW Control to UW Landstill and Angel Control.
This deck is from evolution of Turbo Xerox, Miracle Gro, GAT, and Super Gro, along with some (can be debated) elements from Bird Sh*t and Fish.

[Hanni]

What about this solution? Cut 2 MD Mage for 2 Serra Avenger and sideboard 2 Mage. :)

[URABAHN]

The last thing I’d like to do is get in the middle of this Mage MD vs. SB discussion/argument, but is there really nothing better to discuss then this? I believe the deck is very close to being optimized, but is there improvement that could be explored elsewhere? I don't have any new fresh ideas for the deck right now, but part of that is because nothing else is being talked about. Click back a couple of pages and you'll see that I'm not the only one suggesting that we move onto something new. But like I said, I’d rather not get in the middle of this.

Are you just looking for an optimized decklist or are you willing to hear out what people have to say on particular cards for an optimized decklist? Something new that's being discussed is whether or not Gro needs Meddling Mage in the maindeck, in the board, or not at all. Mad Zur and most of the NoVA crew are leaning towards not playing Meddling Mage at all, arguing it's a "win more" card because it helps you win what is already your best matchup. Mr. Nightmare feels it's useful main or otherwise because you can name any card you want to and slow down your opponent to gain tempo.

If you're interested in winning builds, look at Mr. Nightmare's 2nd place build from The Mana Leak Open or Mad Zur's 2nd place build from The Starcity Games Duel for Duals Day 1.

[Citrus-God]

Are you just looking for an optimized decklist or are you willing to hear out what people have to say on particular cards for an optimized decklist? Something new that's being discussed is whether or not Gro needs Meddling Mage in the maindeck, in the board, or not at all. Mad Zur and most of the NoVA crew are leaning towards not playing Meddling Mage at all, arguing it's a "win more" card because it helps you win what is already your best matchup. Mr. Nightmare feels it's useful main or otherwise because you can name any card you want to and slow down your opponent to gain tempo.

If you're interested in winning builds, look at Mr. Nightmare's 2nd place build from The Mana Leak Open or Mad Zur's 2nd place build from The Starcity Games Duel for Duals Day 1.

And Jesse Hatfield also Top 8ed the second Dual Land Draft, and Alix Hatfield split with Mike Herbig in the finals of the first Dual Land Draft. Yes, Alix and Herbig split the whole Dual Land Draft, and has 3 MMs in the SB, but he probably only sided them in against Solidarity, and probably felt it was unessesary later.

[Mirrislegend]

Are Jotun Grunt and Swords to Plowshares strong enough reasons to play the white splash if Meddling Mage is, at best, relegated to the sideboard? I, personally, dont believe so, but the numbers (of solid finishes for MM-less UGW builds, and of the lack of UGR builds) say otherwise. How can this be explained? Maybe because UGR Thresh just has not been the subject of continual optimization like UGW? Again, I keep coming around to the idea that UGR may be the future of Thresh (). Thoughts?

[Citrus-God]

Are Jotun Grunt and Swords to Plowshares strong enough reasons to play the white splash if Meddling Mage is, at best, relegated to the sideboard? I, personally, dont believe so, but the numbers (of solid finishes for MM-less UGW builds, and of the lack of UGR builds) say otherwise. How can this be explained? Maybe because UGR Thresh just has not been the subject of continual optimization like UGW? Again, I keep coming around to the idea that UGR may be the future of Thresh (). Thoughts?

What are you talking about? UGr Thresh has been a success in our current metagame. We have Wastedlife's 4c Threshold and 3c Threshold w/ Predict, as well as the Hatfield's version. Red doesnt need Mage. Infact, it wins against Solidarity by making them set-off as soon as possible. UGR I admit has died a little, but I think we have the right builds now for strong results.

Now explain to me why you would have this kind of question here? This is UGw. This is one side of this deck, the other side should be discussed in the UGr Thread.

[Solpugid]

I hate to continue a discussion of the red splash in this thread, but having played both versions I know why I personally stick to white.

There are a few match-ups that are hard times for thresh. Angel stompy is difficult, and swords is far more likely to be relevant in that match-up than bolts are.

Fledgling dragon requires you to fetch out volcanic islands more than trops. If your opponent wastelands either dual now, you're in a tight spot (waste trop=no bears or gooses, waste volcanic=difficult to play out dragon). Enforcer lets you get both duals evenly, doesn't tie down your mana when you're in "beat you in the face" mode, and has pro-black (randomly important). Plus, I just love the options of mage, grunt, monastery, worship, and armageddon in the main or board.

I tried 4c a while back (Ugrw), and the manabase is just a tad too shaky for my liking. Honestly, I just think the white version has more game against a varied field (especially with the slight decrease in goblin decks lately).

[Mirrislegend]

Monastery? Really? Has anyone actually used Nantuko Monastery in UGW Thresh? And had it work?

[Solpugid]

Monastery works well for me as a 1-of main deck. First strike, un-wrathable, and mana in a pinch is great. Plus, I love it when people forget to take him into account when they attack. I won't go above 1 though.

[Citrus-God]

Monastery works well for me as a 1-of main deck. First strike, un-wrathable, and mana in a pinch is great. Plus, I love it when people forget to take him into account when they attack. I won't go above 1 though.

I run three in the Sideboard at the moment. These were the exact reason why I ran UGw Threshold. I needed better win conditions, and this came along.

[Solpugid]

Well, I run monastery not only as a good beater, but also to combat slower control decks that ran wrath effects. The problem is, once we get to game 2 I would prefer to side in armaggedon (against landstill and such) over more monasteries, especially since game 2 often brings in grave hate on the other side. That's why I don't run more than I do.

How have your three been working out? And what do you side out for them (not blue producing lands I hope)?

[Citrus-God]

I sideout a Basic Forest and two spell cards. I also, in fact side them in against Angel Stompy (stops Jitte from getting counters). These were one reason why I had them around.

Sad to say, I took them out because Combo and Aggro is everywhere now. I usually side Monasteries in versus the mirror and any Midgame/Aggro-Control mirror. I run Jotun Grunt now... *sigh, I really do miss them.

[Solpugid]

Basic forest, right. Sorry, I think I'm a tad biased because of how little I see wasteland. Because of that I run 2 basic islands, but no other basics. That's how I get away with maindecking monastery ( as it's only good in certain matchups).

[SillyMetalGAT]

I sideout a Basic Forest and two spell cards. I also, in fact side them in against Angel Stompy (stops Jitte from getting counters). These were one reason why I had them around.

Sad to say, I took them out because Combo and Aggro is everywhere now. I usually side Monasteries in versus the mirror and any Midgame/Aggro-Control mirror. I run Jotun Grunt now... *sigh, I really do miss them.

Maybe its cuz im a noob, but I dont see how Nantuko Monestary stops Jitte?