[Primer] R/G Lands

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Here's a black-splash set. Despite the first game, and despite the matchups I faced (you might shit yourself when you see what they are), this wasn't a bad set.

Leagues #13

Takeaways: Thoughtseize rules and seems like the main reason to run the black splash. Abrupt Decays main, while nice on paper, didn't really seem to improve game one percentages as they should have. If you want to run the black splash, I actually suggest this list, rather than the one David Long pioneered: Lands. I'd run four Ports instead of two (which I understand was a budget choice), but otherwise really like that 75.

Am going to do a straight RG set next, but with a sideboard configuration I haven't tried before.

[Chatto]

Tbh it isn't the duals that are an issue for me, I already have those. It's the Thoughtseize and Dark Confidants.

Aah my bad, most of the time it's the Duals Overall, I agree that you don't need the black splash. It can, however, be pretty handy. Straight RG feels better, and perhaps is indeed more consistent.

Totally agree, I keep the cards for both builds of the deck in the same box now though, just in case I want to flip. I like the Decays in the main but dam I wish they have flashback or something.

AD with flashback would be awesome... Or dredge, but that would be brutal...

Side note, has anyone tried the new SOI card Tireless Tracker? I saw a list over the weekend had one in the sideboard.

Card seems pretty good against those grindy decks.

Yeah, I saw the list. Seems like a sweet card. Can't say for sure, but it seems like a manasink, and very slow. On the other hand, you can do without a black splash for Bob and it can be a decent finisher.

,

[djxstream]

I actually suggest this list, rather than the one David Long pioneered: Lands. I'd run four Ports instead of two (which I understand was a budget choice), but otherwise really like that 75.

Which cuts do you make for the other 2 ports? a thicket and a bond seem like my thoughts.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

@gigapatrick, any particular reason you don't port on the draw step when miracles has top on the board?

[Crimhead]

Which cuts do you make for the other 2 ports? a thicket and a bond seem like my thoughts.

Maybe a Thicket and the fourth Depths.

[non-inflammable]

question about porting during the draw step.
does your opponent draw a card then the port activation resolves or does port activation resolve before they have the card in hand?
thanx in advance...

[gigapatrick]

Which cuts do you make for the other 2 ports? a thicket and a bond seem like my thoughts.

Probably the exact cuts I would make.

[gigapatrick]

@gigapatrick, any particular reason you don't port on the draw step when miracles has top on the board?

In general, because it seems better to me (though I Ported on draw several times in these matches to split the opponent's mana). When you Port on upkeep, the Top player has less information about his turn. If you Port at draw, he sees one more card (since he's already drawn his card for turn) and has more info about whether he should use his mana right away or during his main phase. To be honest, though, I've had a discussion like this before (about whether upkeep or draw is a better time to Port), and I'm not really sure which is better. Probably different depending on context.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I like to do it because it screws up inexperienced miracles players who seem to be all over the place these days. It definitely doesn't trip up experienced players too much though and is very situation-dependent like you said. I was just curious what people think since it's definitely not clear-cut.

@non-imflammable by the time you receive priority in their draw step they've already drawn for the turn. It's nice against players who won't top without you porting something first so they'll need to commit a mana beforehand if they want to control their draw. It's a really small thing but can make a difference in tight games where they need every mana.

[non-inflammable]

by the time you receive priority in their draw step they've already drawn for the turn. It's nice against players who won't top without you porting something first so they'll need to commit a mana beforehand if they want to control their draw. It's a really small thing but can make a difference in tight games where they need every mana.

that's what i thought but i do like to switch up when i port them.
i don't have the same dread playing miracles since i added a riftstone portal and a worm harvest.

[CovenantElite30]

Hello all. Here's a black-splash set. Despite the first game, and despite the matchups I faced (you might shit yourself when you see what they are), this wasn't a bad set.

Leagues #13

Takeaways: Thoughtseize rules and seems like the main reason to run the black splash. Abrupt Decays main, while nice on paper, didn't really seem to improve game one percentages as they should have. If you want to run the black splash, I actually suggest this list, rather than the one David Long pioneered: Lands. I'd run four Ports instead of two (which I understand was a budget choice), but otherwise really like that 75.

Am going to do a straight RG set next, but with a sideboard configuration I haven't tried before.

Great video series again!

This is my nightmare playing lands and having to go up against Miracles that many times in a row.

It's safe to say though if Miracles is a huge part of your meta then splashing black is the way to go.

Have you had any thoughts of playing the blue splash?

[barcode]

Great video series again!

This is my nightmare playing lands and having to go up against Miracles that many times in a row.

It's safe to say though if Miracles is a huge part of your meta then splashing black is the way to go.

Have you had any thoughts of playing the blue splash?

The blue splash plays like a very different deck. It is truly a control/prison deck that has that combo finish. I don't mind playing Miracles with it since, baring death by creatures we can win by decking, through Jace ultimate, with Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives.

[gigapatrick]

Great video series again!

This is my nightmare playing lands and having to go up against Miracles that many times in a row.

It's safe to say though if Miracles is a huge part of your meta then splashing black is the way to go.

Have you had any thoughts of playing the blue splash?

Do you mean splashing a Tropical Island and an Academy Ruins to recur artifacts? Or do you mean running Rug Lands?

In either case, the answer is yes. I've thought about doing both things. In the case of the former, I really don't see why you'd mess with your mana when you have a colorless option in Buried Ruin, which, though inferior to Academy Ruins, keeps your land configuration stable. In the case of the latter, I think RG is just better at winning. If it weren't, we wouldn't see lopsided results in favor of RG (and now RGb). Granted, there are considerations that would mitigate this result (as a cheaper deck, RG might just see wider play), but I'm not really convinced by arguments that use such lines. For example, when I got third place a while back at a Cincy Legacy SCG IQ, I noticed that Bobby Kovacs was also there piloting Rug Lands. Now, he could have had worse matchups than me, but I've got to think that he was just piloting a worse deck, since I imagine his skill with it is much greater than mine with RG. This is just an anecdote that proves nothing, but it is just one more thing that makes me think that RG is strictly better than Rug. It may be the case that we're seeing another shift similar to the one from Rug to RG; now the shift is from RG to RGb. Not sure how this shift will play out, if we'll end up with one being strictly better than the other or if we'll see two equally competitive variations of the deck. Right now, it is looking a little bit like the former. Most Lands lists that show up now are all running the black splash, so we might not be calling it the splash any longer.

[CovenantElite30]

Do you mean splashing a Tropical Island and an Academy Ruins to recur artifacts? Or do you mean running Rug Lands?

In either case, the answer is yes. I've thought about doing both things. In the case of the former, I really don't see why you'd mess with your mana when you have a colorless option in Buried Ruin, which, though inferior to Academy Ruins, keeps your land configuration stable. In the case of the latter, I think RG is just better at winning. If it weren't, we wouldn't see lopsided results in favor of RG (and now RGb). Granted, there are considerations that would mitigate this result (as a cheaper deck, RG might just see wider play), but I'm not really convinced by arguments that use such lines. For example, when I got third place a while back at a Cincy Legacy SCG IQ, I noticed that Bobby Kovacs was also there piloting Rug Lands. Now, he could have had worse matchups than me, but I've got to think that he was just piloting a worse deck, since I imagine his skill with it is much greater than mine with RG. This is just an anecdote that proves nothing, but it is just one more thing that makes me think that RG is strictly better than Rug. It may be the case that we're seeing another shift similar to the one from Rug to RG; now the shift is from RG to RGb. Not sure how this shift will play out, if we'll end up with one being strictly better than the other or if we'll see two equally competitive variations of the deck. Right now, it is looking a little bit like the former. Most Lands lists that show up now are all running the black splash, so we might not be calling it the splash any longer.

I like your insight on the differences between the current RGb and RUG lands lists.

I agree I think the RGb/RG is probably better then the RUG land lists.

With the addition of black aren't we just heading to the Jund Depths lists? I've seen some Dark Depths list that are looking closer and closer to the RGb lists we are playing.

Me as a noob to the RGb/RG lands what makes this RGb/RG the superior Dark Depths deck?

[gigapatrick]

I like your insight on the differences between the current RGb and RUG lands lists.

I agree I think the RGb/RG is probably better then the RUG land lists.

With the addition of black aren't we just heading to the Jund Depths lists? I've seen some Dark Depths list that are looking closer and closer to the RGb lists we are playing.

Me as a noob to the RGb/RG lands what makes this RGb/RG the superior Dark Depths deck?

Jund Depths and Dark Depths are two different decks.

Jund Depths is a Pox variant that trades the power of Exploration and Manabond for the disruption of Smallpox. I don't think that deck is bad, but I would say that it is strictly worse than our deck. Exploration and Manabond are just better than Smallpox, and Gamble is better than Entomb. It has a few more tricks and a few more outs, but so does Rug Lands. Time and time again the speed and consistency of Rg(b) prove better at winning than having tricks and outs. There's no out quite like a 20/20 made EOT. This is why I like to run all four copies of Depths. Why the heck wouldn't you want to "oops, I win" as many games as possible?

Dark Depths is just a straight combo deck. It trades our Loam engine (which provides us resiliency and inevitability) for speed and protection. Don't know much about this deck other than that it hopes to make a turn two or three Lage as often as possible with discard or Not of This World to keep the token from dying. Really couldn't tell you anything more about this deck.

[Rivfader]

With the addition of black aren't we just heading to the Jund Depths lists? I've seen some Dark Depths list that are looking closer and closer to the RGb lists we are playing.
Me as a noob to the RGb/RG lands what makes this RGb/RG the superior Dark Depths deck?

Blacksplashing in RG Lands doesn't essentially change the deck, it (just) adds more flexibility (at the cost of some synergy). Abrupt Decay is basically a maindecked Krosan Grip, with the benefit of being additional creature removal when your opponent isn't playing problematic artifacts or enchantments. Thoughtseize is great as it hits anything we have problems interacting with, as long it's in hand. It offers the flex of abrupt decay in a discard kind of way, especially versus combo and hate, but also versus any deck where the creaturecontrol doesn't really do much (Miracles, Enchantress, ... ). And Dark Confidant is postboard tech through opposing gravehate.

That's quite different from Junddepths, that's essentially a Punishing-Pox deck; Smallpox and Liliana with Pfire and Loam breaking the symmetry. Although many interactions are alike (Pfire-Grove, Loam-waste, Stage-Depths), this is a controldeck in a Poxish way. Black is this deck's primary color, as Liliana and Smallpox need double-B, which limits the amount of utility-lands.

EDIT: simultaneously posted with Gigapatrick ...

There's no out quite like a 20/20 made EOT. This is why I like to run all four copies of Depths. Why the heck wouldn't you want to "oops, I win" as many games as possible?

I very much agree with this; the added amount of control (in Rug or Jund) may add winpercentages against some decks, but the quick combopossibility of RG (b) adds winpercentages against any deck (especially relevant against bad matchups).

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Just wanted to post a link to BBD's Lands video set at Channelfireball. Enjoy. He makes an interesting remark at the end comparing straight RG to the black splash, or what he calls "Dark Lands."

[CovenantElite30]

Hello all. Just wanted to post a link to BBD's Lands video set at Channelfireball. Enjoy. He makes an interesting remark at the end comparing straight RG to the black splash, or what he calls "Dark Lands."

Yeah I watched his series. After playing with vortex myself and watching videos of others playing it, I think it's a bad card main.

The card seems to be more card disadvantage where as P-Fire is more card advantage.

[gigapatrick]

Yeah I watched his series. After playing with vortex myself and watching videos of others playing it, I think it's a bad card main.

The card seems to be more card disadvantage where as P-Fire is more card advantage.

Yeah, I don't think Vortex is a good card. I'll have to watch again, but Punishing Fire seems like it would have been just as good in most of the scenarios BBD encountered.

[Dice_Box]

If you want to run the black splash, I actually suggest this list, rather than the one David Long pioneered: Lands. I'd run four Ports instead of two (which I understand was a budget choice), but otherwise really like that 75.

Tried this tonight. Against Infect Bob was a god. I think he and Thoughtseize make that splash worth it. They helped against Omnishow greatly. (and some large amount of luck helped.)