[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Ralf]

I appreciate your understanding. I am sure one day I will gather up the courage.

Side note: I've been reading the modern jund forum on mtgsalvation and I just want to say: I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU. SERIOUSLY, THINKING BEFORE POSTING AND BEING UNDERSTANDING OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING ANSWERS. DEAR LORD, ITS LIKE NIGHT AND DAY, BUT NO WEREWOLVES. Thank god im too lazy to make a mtgsalvation account of the jund thread would be painted red.

We (as a general statement for legacy players) might be a bit older and thus wiser than in the Modern Jund forum on MTGS...

Or not !

[Warden]

Hi guys,

I typically pilot delver, but happen to have a lot of Nic Fit cards just laying around so I decided to just finish the deck. Mainly because Siege Rhino is a silly card.

I'm running this list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399401#paper

I saw the sideboarding guide, but this list seems very different in comparison to the "stock" list. (Slaughtergames vs none)

Is there a sb guide for the lists running slaughtergames?

I really wasn't sure what to bring in/out vs Grixis Delver.
I know I want to bring in Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Tsunami
I guess I should drop Karakas, Scavenging Ooze, Rec Sage

What matchups are Slaughtergames brought in? Miracles, and likely combo?

I have a different take (given the list in the link):
-2 Painful Truths
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Deed*

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Garruk R*

IMO truths is dangerous. Theory-craft all you want, in the real world, I find Grixis to be very fast. I'm not giving up another 2 or 3 life. With this logic, I'd swap truths and a rec sage (weakest thing in the MD) for removal, removal, removal. EE takes out tokens/insectiles @0, delvers/drs @1, pyro @2, TNN @3. The small % recursion with Glissa is gravy. Every time you 2-for-1 them, you're winning.
I'd consider shaving down Deed to 2x, especially if decays and stifle are in the mix. If dropping 1 decay, I'd replace it with Garruk R.

I don't think Tsunami is necessarily needed. Just be removal.dec and have an option to life-gain from DRS, Scooze, Rhino.

***
My own SB choices (if you're considering changes):
+2 removal
+1 Scavenging Ooze

EDIT: Surgical is also a possibility.

[Tom4ik]

I am not theory crafting. I play 2 truths since the card was released in a deck with less and slower mana development than nic fit. Grixis should be a fine match up. You have path and decay for early interaction and deed to sweep up. Slamming rhinos should swing most races against them.

[Ricardio]

I have a different take (given the list in the link):
-2 Painful Truths
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Deed*

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Garruk R*

IMO truths is dangerous. Theory-craft all you want, in the real world, I find Grixis to be very fast. I'm not giving up another 2 or 3 life. With this logic, I'd swap truths and a rec sage (weakest thing in the MD) for removal, removal, removal. EE takes out tokens/insectiles @0, delvers/drs @1, pyro @2, TNN @3. The small % recursion with Glissa is gravy. Every time you 2-for-1 them, you're winning.
I'd consider shaving down Deed to 2x, especially if decays and stifle are in the mix. If dropping 1 decay, I'd replace it with Garruk R.

I don't think Tsunami is necessarily needed. Just be removal.dec and have an option to life-gain from DRS, Scooze, Rhino.

***
My own SB choices (if you're considering changes):
+2 removal
+1 Scavenging Ooze

EDIT: Surgical is also a possibility.

cutting deed against the young pyro, delver, tnn deck is absolutely wrong. you cut pulse or vindicate first.
pruths is very strong in an attrition mu like grixis delver, the life loss can be serious but rhino and drs help a lot. At this point, I am a firm believer in 2-3 pruths in rhino fit, not theorycrafting at all because I have tested it and they earned they spots, just like every other card in the deck.
EE ON 0 DOES NOT KILL DELVER/INSECT.
Relentless against the 4 bolt deck is wrong. 4 cmc threat that becomes a 2/2 wolf and trades for a bolt is not good. after the rules change, relentless is good against decay decks but still not playable against bolt decks.
Tsunami can be an absolute blowout but I do not feel its entirely necessary. Vet triggers win us delver mus.

I am not theory crafting. I play 2 truths since the card was released in a deck with less and slower mana development than nic fit. Grixis should be a fine match up. You have path and decay for early interaction and deed to sweep up. Slamming rhinos should swing most races against them.

Pruths is the real deal. Between our early removal and superior creatures, this is a fine mu that we only lose to variance. I love my delver mu with rhino fit. All the flavors. RUG is my favorite. watching them squirm in their seat when you resolve a vet trigger, its makes life worth living.

[ShadowKramer]

I noticed a few times here that you can't abrupt decay a flipped Garruk Relentless. I miss a rule change concerning double faced cards?

[Bobmans]

I noticed a few times here that you can't abrupt decay a flipped Garruk Relentless. I miss a rule change concerning double faced cards?

Yes, rulings changed regarding double faced cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...trad-mechanics

[ShadowKramer]

Yes, rulings changed regarding double faced cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...trad-mechanics

Ah, thank you for pointing me to that update. Had a discussion with a friend about it and he was still under the impression you can do that. I will direct him to that article.

[Ricardio]

only 3 cards(delver, huntmaster, garruk relentless) and 1 deck(RUG Delver) are truly effected by the rules change. EE now hits 8/12 threats in rug.

[Jaytron]

only 3 cards(delver, huntmaster, garruk relentless) and 1 deck(RUG Delver) are truly effected by the rules change. EE now hits 8/12 threats in rug.

8 threats is pretty universal out of all the Delver decks with the change. Delver+DRS/Goose

[Bobmans]

only 3 cards(delver, huntmaster, garruk relentless) and 1 deck(RUG Delver) are truly effected by the rules change. EE now hits 8/12 threats in rug.

And in nearly every freakin deck i find myself with double faced cards forcing me to use black sleeves, cus otherwise you see them thru the sleeves and checklist cards are UGLY as hell.

Btw, all matchup's in the Cheatsheet are in there. Feel free to discuss/comment. I consider it a "grow" document.

[Ricardio]

And in nearly every freakin deck i find myself with double faced cards forcing me to use black sleeves, cus otherwise you see them thru the sleeves and checklist cards are UGLY as hell.

Btw, all matchup's in the Cheatsheet are in there. Feel free to discuss/comment. I consider it a "grow" document.

Damn, no comment sections to troll under matt's/ralf's/echelon's name. 0/10
Add some green to the site so they know rhino is lurking.

Looks great otherwise. I do not believe 2 anguished unmaking can go in alongside 2 painful truth. Also vindicate is better than AU. Lands > instant speed.
Super detailed. Perfect for people wanting to try it out with little meta understanding. Some sb choices seem meh but overall great job, Bob.

[Bobmans]

Damn, no comment sections to troll under matt's/ralf's/echelon's name. 0/10
Add some green to the site so they know rhino is lurking.

Looks great otherwise. I do not believe 2 anguished unmaking can go in alongside 2 painful truth. Also vindicate is better than AU. Lands > instant speed.
Super detailed. Perfect for people wanting to try it out with little meta understanding. Some sb choices seem meh but overall great job, Bob.

AU has a multpipurpose role in being able to Exile Marit Lage, kill Jace, shutting up Batterschedel. Innitially i was missing Pulse/Vindicate, but i didn't want to cut PrE #4. The lifeloss worries me a bit, but i hope Sorin can offset it. Still on trial. Some goes for KotR + Two Tower. Ralf pointed out the story about KotR and i wanted recursion not being Meren or Recurry.

[Ricardio]

AU has a multpipurpose role in being able to Exile Marit Lage, kill Jace, shutting up Batterschedel.
Innitially i was missing Pulse/Vindicate, but i didn't want to cut PrE #4.
The lifeloss worries me a bit, but i hope Sorin can offset it. Still on trial.
Some goes for KotR + Two Tower. Ralf pointed out the story about KotR and i wanted recursion not being Meren or Recurry.

PTE/karakas deals with lage as well. Vindicate/pulse kills Jace, batterskull, the kitchen sink, primary school bully, etc. if we wanna get technical, vindicate is better than AU against Misthollow Griffin.
PTE is a solid 3-4 of depending on meta but I think bolting yourself to remove something is not worth the cost, personally.
a 6 drop, 1 of, can't be a leaning post for losing 3 life and paying mana to remove a threat early-mid game. that's asking too much of your latest game bomb.
Kotr is a good card but not in this deck. Delver is a good card, not in the deck. Courser is a weak card, every deck.

I CAN DO THIS ALL DAY!

[Ralf]

Based on my list, here are a few sideboard tables:

As you can see I'm really not a fan of keeping cabal therapy against midrange strategy.
But this is something up to debate.
I'll keep it updated for anyone and I'm opened to further discussions.

Happy testing !


Elves!

3 Abeyance
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Canonist

-1 DRS
-2 GSZ
-1 Sigarda
-1 Forest
-2 Vindicate
-2 Rhino
-1 Sensei's divining top


Sneak

3 Abeyance
1 Gaddock
1 Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
1 Golgari Charm
2 DRS
1 Krosan grip

-4 Path
-1 Veteran Explorer
-3 GSZ
-3 Pernicious Deed
-1/-2 Abrupt decay
-1/0 Sigarda
-1 Ooze


Canadian

3 Thoughtseize
2 DRS

-2 GSZ
-2 Cabal Therapy
-1 Painful Truth


Jund

2 Abeyance
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
1 Golgari Charm

-4 Cabal Therapy
-2 GSZ
-1 DRS
-1 Phyrexian Tower


Shardless

3 Abeyance
3 Thougthseize
2 Surgical
1 Golgari Charm

-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 GSZ
-1 DRS
-1 Phyrexian Tower


BUG Delver

3 Thoughtseize
2 DRS

-2 GSZ
-2/-3 Cabal Therapy
-1/0 Painful Truth


Burn

3 Abeyance
2 DRS
1 Gaddock
1 Golgari charm
1 Krosan Grip

-4 Cabal Therapy
-1 Sigarda
-1 Karakas
-2 Painful Truth


Eldrazi

3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague

-4 Cabal Therapy


Imperial Painter

2 Surgical
3 Thoughtseize
1 Krosan Grip
2 Abeyance
1 Golgari charm
2 Deathrite Shaman

-1 Cabal
-1 Sigarda
-3 GSZ
-3 Rhino
-1 Karakas
-1 Ooze
-1 Painful Truth


Aluren

1 Golgari charm
2 Surgical
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock
1 Krosan Grip

-1 DRS
-4 Cabal Therapy
-2 GSZ
-2 Vindicate


Storm

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari charm
1 Engineered Plague
3 Abeyance
3 Thoughtseize
1 Canonist
2 Deathrite Shaman

-1 Karakas
-1 Sigarda
-3 Veteran
-3 Abrupt Decay
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Rhino


Miracle

2 Surgical
1 Engineered Plague
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abeyance
2 DRS
1 Gaddock
1 Krosan Grip

-4 Path to Exile
-4 Veteran
-4 Cabal Therapy
-1 GSZ


D&T

1 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction

-4 Cabal Therapy
-2 GSZ
-1 DRS


MUD

3 Thoughtseize
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical
3 Abeyance

-1 DRS
-3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 GSZ
-1 Karakas
-1 SDT


Infect

1 Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical
1 Engineered Plague
3 Abeyance
2 DRS

-1 Karakas
-1 Sigarda
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-4 GSZ
-1 Cabal Therapy
-4 Rhino
-1 Veteran

[Ricardio]

...but does Ralf know why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?!?

[TTX]

Sigarda should be left in against Show and Tell based decks. The off-chance to blank the spaghetti annihilation can flip the game around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jaytron]

Broad question, what are thoughts of running slaughter games and not running slaughter games in the board? What takes its place? What are pros/cons of running it?

[Ralf]

...but does Ralf know why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?!?

AH ! I can't see why...

Those TV ads made me blind :)

[Ralf]

Sigarda should be left in against Show and Tell based decks. The off-chance to blank the spaghetti annihilation can flip the game around.

I have pondered a lot about Sigarda in S&T MUs.

She could be fine and, as you said, she can flip the game around...but only once in a blue moon.

I won't blame anyone for keeping Sigarda in; but I believe that if Emmy hits the board, you lost already.
That might not be correct though.

Sigarda might give you the turn you need to find Karakas or to lethal strike back.

I'll run some more tests involving Sigarda around or not.

Thanks for pointing that !

[Echelon]

LoL,

Really glad to hear more on Sorin. With the inclusion of Volrath's Stronghold (rather then Meren), i can use KotR to fetch the two towers if needed.
Combining them with Siege Rhino and Sorin, one could: Attack with Rhino, flip it to the top; +1 Sorin, cast Rhino, GO!

That's it. You're promoted from altar boy to being the resident evil genius. The high priest is now also obligated to polish your sleeves when you do his.

I have a different take (given the list in the link):
-2 Painful Truths
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Deed*

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Garruk R*

IMO truths is dangerous. Theory-craft all you want, in the real world, I find Grixis to be very fast. I'm not giving up another 2 or 3 life. With this logic, I'd swap truths and a rec sage (weakest thing in the MD) for removal, removal, removal. EE takes out tokens/insectiles @0, delvers/drs @1, pyro @2, TNN @3. The small % recursion with Glissa is gravy. Every time you 2-for-1 them, you're winning.
I'd consider shaving down Deed to 2x, especially if decays and stifle are in the mix. If dropping 1 decay, I'd replace it with Garruk R.

I don't think Tsunami is necessarily needed. Just be removal.dec and have an option to life-gain from DRS, Scooze, Rhino.

***
My own SB choices (if you're considering changes):
+2 removal
+1 Scavenging Ooze

EDIT: Surgical is also a possibility.

Beating the living daylight out of my buddy for many a day over the course of several years now is theory crafting? Did not know that... That's 100+ games down the drain...

Also, you want to shave a Deed b/c Stifle & Decay but decide to add an Engineered Explosives..? B/c that isn't hit by those exact same cards..? And neither is recurring EE with Glissa..? Who herself also dies to the Bolts you hardly present other targets for..? Or am I theory crafting now..?

Damn, no comment sections to troll under matt's/ralf's/echelon's name. 0/10
Add some green to the site so they know rhino is lurking.

+1! Or 10.

@Bobmans: A little note on the description for the dredge MU: Don't PtE at their EoT, PtE Ichorid (or whatever other creature) at the end of their upkeep. Saves you from some damage and keeps them from Cabal Therapy/Dread Return. Narcomoebas and Nether Shadows can pretty much be ignored. Just exile the Ichorids and the deck falls flat on its ass. Also target those first with DRS/Ooze. No recurring creatures = no damage, no tokens and no means to Cabal Therapy/Dread Return. A little bit of technical play goes a long way vs. that deck.