[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Bobmans]

@Bobmans: A little note on the description for the dredge MU: Don't PtE at their EoT, PtE Ichorid (or whatever other creature) at the end of their upkeep. Saves you from some damage and keeps them from Cabal Therapy/Dread Return. Narcomoebas and Nether Shadows can pretty much be ignored. Just exile the Ichorids and the deck falls flat on its ass. Also target those first with DRS/Ooze. No recurring creatures = no damage, no tokens and no means to Cabal Therapy/Dread Return. A little bit of technical play goes a long way vs. that deck.

I was actually talking about either their end of draw step (same effect as upkeep but giving you more information). Narco's with Surgical and Ichorid with Scooze/DRS/PTE.

[TTX]

I have pondered a lot about Sigarda in S&T MUs.

She could be fine and, as you said, she can flip the game around...but only once in a blue moon.

I won't blame anyone for keeping Sigarda in; but I believe that if Emmy hits the board, you lost already.
That might not be correct though.

Sigarda might give you the turn you need to find Karakas or to lethal strike back.

I'll run some more tests involving Sigarda around or not.

Thanks for pointing that !

I agree that it's a crap shoot matchup, I'd rather have a Thoughtseize and Surgical Extraction than Sigarda in my openers.

[Ricardio]

That's it. You're promoted from altar boy to being the resident evil genius. The high priest is now also obligated to polish your sleeves when you do his.



Beating the living daylight out of my buddy for many a day over the course of several years now is theory crafting? Did not know that... That's 100+ games down the drain...

Also, you want to shave a Deed b/c Stifle & Decay but decide to add an Engineered Explosives..? B/c that isn't hit by those exact same cards..? And neither is recurring EE with Glissa..? Who herself also dies to the Bolts you hardly present other targets for..? Or am I theory crafting now..?



+1! Or 10.

@Bobmans: A little note on the description for the dredge MU: Don't PtE at their EoT, PtE Ichorid (or whatever other creature) at the end of their upkeep. Saves you from some damage and keeps them from Cabal Therapy/Dread Return. Narcomoebas and Nether Shadows can pretty much be ignored. Just exile the Ichorids and the deck falls flat on its ass. Also target those first with DRS/Ooze. No recurring creatures = no damage, no tokens and no means to Cabal Therapy/Dread Return. A little bit of technical play goes a long way vs. that deck.

If hes the alter boy and im the priest, you got a Purdy mouth. haha

I already highlighted how wrong Warden was.

+1000? haha

There are a lot of intricacies for nic fit against many decks that can't be displayed on a sideboard primer because its too specific. Against LED dredge, gsz is the strongest card in your deck because it gets you scooz/drs. catching their dredgers is only good when they are light on them, otherwise you want to be hitting ichorids and the like. we can beat a huge GGT but without an active deed, we lose to FKZ kill. If they have multiple bridges, ewit back a decay to decay itself is a legit play.

[rubblekill]

I agree with the common idea that SG pollutes the mana base and has to go.

I tried Hydra, but monastery mentor fucks with that card pretty badly: the average 3/3 - 4/4 hydra cannot stand a chance against mentor (AND the usual suspects: EtA, Terminus, StP..). Hydra doesn't belong in the deck in my opinion, unfortunately.

I have just acquired 3x Abeyances to fill the SG/Hydra void in the sideboard: for sure Abeyance seems to have more applications than Hydra, which pretty much only gets play against miracles, I hope that the hype for this card is justified because I think that all we need right now is to fill this void to better fight against cancer.deck.

New Sorin is a must in theory imo (but only in the sb), but right now I don't feel like spending 14 bucks for him; future purchase.

[Ralf]

I have just acquired 3x Abeyances to fill the SG/Hydra void in the sideboard: for sure Abeyance seems to have more applications than Hydra, which pretty much only gets play against miracles, I hope that the hype for this card is justified because I think that all we need right now is to fill this void to better fight against cancer.deck.

+1.

[Ricardio]

I agree with the common idea that SG pollutes the mana base and has to go.

I tried Hydra, but monastery mentor fucks with that card pretty badly: the average 3/3 - 4/4 hydra cannot stand a chance against mentor (AND the usual suspects: EtA, Terminus, StP..). Hydra doesn't belong in the deck in my opinion, unfortunately.

I have just acquired 3x Abeyances to fill the SG/Hydra void in the sideboard: for sure Abeyance seems to have more applications than Hydra, which pretty much only gets play against miracles, I hope that the hype for this card is justified because I think that all we need right now is to fill this void to better fight against cancer.deck.

New Sorin is a must in theory imo (but only in the sb), but right now I don't feel like spending 14 bucks for him; future purchase.

I feared as much. I will keep looking in the meantime.
New sorin is amazing. #fuckcancer

[Jain_Mor]

As much as I hate miracles, after doing some math based on my records and the winning decks metagame on mtggoldfish, pushing the deck up to a 60% from the 50% matchup against combo will help it better than pushing the deck up to a 40% or 50% matchup against miracles.

Forunately a lot of cards that are good against combo are good against miracles too. Like 2 main deck Thoughtsiezes (still acts as pseudo 1 mana removal spells against creature decks (yes it's a bad top deck against some decks before we get to the mid-late game where we take over anyway)) and abeyance (still hvnt draw one against miracles, but it's been good against storm and reanimator as a counterspell or time walk)

@Ralf
" Shardless

3 Abeyance
3 Thougthseize
2 Surgical
1 Golgari Charm

-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 GSZ
-1 DRS
-1 Phyrexian Tower"

Dear god what are you doing to your deck :O
Maybe there's method to the madness? Why do you take out Gsun zeniths from your deck to add surgical extractions and golgari charm?? Why do you want to be down card against the attrition deck? I side out discard for sweepers and card advantage cards (truths, planeswalkers etc)

Edit: for those curious, in MTGO leagues over 108 games, 45 matches I have a 64% match win rate
Combo 50% win rate (elves, reanimator, sneak and show, storm, infect etc)
Miracles 20% (40% in games..)
Midrange 70% (66% against shardless)
Creature aggro 83% (delver decks, tribal, D&T)
I grouped decks by my strategy against them.

If anyone wants more detailed numbers I'd happily oblige.

[rubblekill]

As much as I hate miracles, after doing some math based on my records and the winning decks metagame on mtggoldfish, pushing the deck up to a 60% from the 50% matchup against combo will help it better than pushing the deck up to a 40% or 50% matchup against miracles.

Forunately a lot of cards that are good against combo are good against miracles too. Like 2 main deck Thoughtsiezes (still acts as pseudo 1 mana removal spells against creature decks (yes it's a bad top deck against some decks before we get to the mid-late game where we take over anyway)) and abeyance (still hvnt draw one against miracles, but it's been good against storm and reanimator as a counterspell or time walk)

@Ralf
" Shardless

3 Abeyance
3 Thougthseize
2 Surgical
1 Golgari Charm

-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 GSZ
-1 DRS
-1 Phyrexian Tower"

Dear god what are you doing to your deck :O
Maybe there's method to the madness? Why do you take out Gsun zeniths from your deck to add surgical extractions and golgari charm?? Why do you want to be down card against the attrition deck? I side out discard for sweepers and card advantage cards (truths, planeswalkers etc)

Edit: for those curious, in MTGO leagues over 108 games, 45 matches I have a 64% match win rate
Combo 50% win rate (elves, reanimator, sneak and show, storm, infect etc)
Miracles 20% (40% in games..)
Midrange 70% (66% against shardless)
Creature aggro 83% (delver decks, tribal, D&T)
I grouped decks by my strategy against them.

If anyone wants more detailed numbers I'd happily oblige.

Since I have been busy irl I have been running 2 ts main instead of bsa and nissa. I like them A LOT because a t1 ts can ruin an eldrazi godhand and snipe their best card. Plus it is a synergy with therapy.

I have been loving 2 ts main but never reported this change here afraid to be considered a fool by you gentlemen, since I can't play that much anymore at the moment to play test more. On modo I have called the deck "boring fit" because 2 catch all discard spells (that help against problematic mu) instead of 2 fun creatures is just plain and boring. But very effective in my experience (last 1.5 months of scattered play sessions).

I feel that more discard is what this deck lacked in comparison to the GB variant. Decay and rhino own the board, the rest deals with their hand.

[Ralf]

@Ralf
" Shardless

3 Abeyance
3 Thougthseize
2 Surgical
1 Golgari Charm

-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 GSZ
-1 DRS
-1 Phyrexian Tower"

Dear god what are you doing to your deck :O
Maybe there's method to the madness? Why do you take out Gsun zeniths from your deck to add surgical extractions and golgari charm?? Why do you want to be down card against the attrition deck? I side out discard for sweepers and card advantage cards (truths, planeswalkers etc)

Actually, that's the true meaning of sharing sideboard plans.

Here is the "why":

1) Shardless has very few real threats. If you kill one and surgical it (Tarmo as it is their only real threat), it is a blowout.
2) GSZ hates "cage" and does not deal with opponent's discard (HTT/TS) / PW(Jace) / Sweepers (Toxic D), TS does.
3) Golgari charm is another out to Sylvan Library, Strix (and sometime can save an ooze from a decay).

TS is a very bad topdeck, but with this SB configuration I'm trying to deny shardless's core strategy: CARD ADVANTAGE (TS, Abeyance) and keep him within our reach.

Anyway, the MU is usually decided by who resolve a big draw engine first.

[Jaytron]

Eh, I disagree.

Thoughtseize seems really bad. 1 for 1 against the deck that is built on 2 for 1'ing you seems... not great. Cabal seems more useful, because it's at least a sac outlet for Vet, and can let you take more than one card.

Surgical'ing their goyfs doesn't blow out Shardless, lol.

[Ricardio]

@Ralf
" Shardless

3 Abeyance
3 Thougthseize
2 Surgical
1 Golgari Charm

-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 GSZ
-1 DRS
-1 Phyrexian Tower"

Dear god what are you doing to your deck :O
Maybe there's method to the madness? Why do you take out Gsun zeniths from your deck to add surgical extractions and golgari charm?? Why do you want to be down card against the attrition deck? I side out discard for sweepers and card advantage cards (truths, planeswalkers etc)

I agree with Jain when I say: WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU EVER CUT GSZ? The most versatile and strongest card in our deck. Surgical is also very weird to me. Abeyance seems good.

Since I have been busy irl I have been running 2 ts main instead of bsa and nissa. I like them A LOT because a t1 ts can ruin an eldrazi godhand and snipe their best card. Plus it is a synergy with therapy.

I have been loving 2 ts main but never reported this change here afraid to be considered a fool by you gentlemen, since I can't play that much anymore at the moment to play test more. On modo I have called the deck "boring fit" because 2 catch all discard spells (that help against problematic mu) instead of 2 fun creatures is just plain and boring. But very effective in my experience (last 1.5 months of scattered play sessions).

I feel that more discard is what this deck lacked in comparison to the GB variant. Decay and rhino own the board, the rest deals with their hand.

I will have to try this md seize life. I agree that playing something over what we consider fun is saddening but we make sacrifices for the GREATER GOOD.

Actually, that's the true meaning of sharing sideboard plans.

Here is the "why":

1) Shardless has very few real threats. If you kill one and surgical it (Tarmo as it is their only real threat), it is a blowout.
2) GSZ hates "cage" and does not deal with opponent's discard (HTT/TS) / PW(Jace) / Sweepers (Toxic D), TS does.
3) Golgari charm is another out to Sylvan Library, Strix (and sometime can save an ooze from a decay).

TS is a very bad topdeck, but with this SB configuration I'm trying to deny shardless's core strategy: CARD ADVANTAGE (TS, Abeyance) and keep him within our reach.

Anyway, the MU is usually decided by who resolve a big draw engine first.

Surgical is not a good card for the shardless mu and taking out gsz which is a threat is wrong as well. We have plenty of removal for their threats. our only worry is jtms, absurdly large goyfs and lotv, otherwise they just draw cards and play vanilla creatures.

Eh, I disagree.

Thoughtseize seems really bad. 1 for 1 against the deck that is built on 2 for 1'ing you seems... not great. Cabal seems more useful, because it's at least a sac outlet for Vet, and can let you take more than one card.

Surgical'ing their goyfs doesn't blow out Shardless, lol.

Seize is not where you want to be against shardless bc its undone immediately when they cast AV. Surgical is not value. We want to sweep the board and rhino them out. its simple.

[Jain_Mor]

@Jayton {EDIT: SORRY thought you were talking about our deck, not our deck against shardless, but for people that might be wary of TS:} we need to survive until we can dominate with our sweepers and unanswerable threats. TS helps you do that against almost 100% of the metagame (unlike path and decay etc (not that I'm cutting those..))

@rubblekill, I also shared a fear of posting about TS haha but after some testing I've been really liking it so I deided to share, glad to hear you've come to similar conclusions

@Ralf, I mean each to their own, but my gameplan against shardless is to use vets to blank their attacks, get mana, sweep with deed or deluge and then win with sigarda/tusk/meren/planeswalker. SFM plus Truths keeps me in the card advantage race.

I've played GBx decks in modern and legacy for a while now, and the general convention against other GBx decks is to sideout your discard for threats, card advantage and reactive answers. Green sun zenith is the best threat in our deck. Cage (which I havn't played against a shardless deck using yet, though I have faced null rod a few times) is answered by all of our decays and deeds. I also sideboard in reclamation sage when I have it to also answer the cards you're talking about but leaves a body around (cage, library, strix).

[pettdan]

@Maindeck Thoughtsezie / Rubblekill, Jain_Mor:
I've played maindeck discard at times too, I think it makes much sense in a combo heavy meta [edit: or well, in a combo heavy meta you wouldn't play Nic Fit at all, but let's say a relatively combo heavy meta]. You maindeck them with the intention of hedging vs combo decks, like Jain_Mor is arguing with the match statistics. Now that we have a combo light meta (correct me if I'm wrong) it seems to be a less attractive point in time to try this strategy than it has been for some time. I was more into it with Storm/Sneak'n Show/Omnshow being top decks. I also like the extra discard vs Batterskulls and Stifles (not so much around?).

With that said it's good trying the main discard strategy every now and then to see if the deck can be made more allround. But whenever I do I like to also add a Liliana or two and/or a Gaddock so that the early discard vs the combo deck can be followed up with some relevant anti combo pressure. One extra discard vs Storm or Sneak/Omni will mostly just delay their win? Or what do you think?

[Jain_Mor]

@Maindeck Thoughtsezie / Rubblekill, Jain_Mor:
I've played maindeck discard at times too, I think it makes much sense in a combo heavy meta [edit: or well, in a combo heavy meta you wouldn't play Nic Fit at all, but let's say a relatively combo heavy meta]. You maindeck them with the intention of hedging vs combo decks, like Jain_Mor is arguing with the match statistics. Now that we have a combo light meta (correct me if I'm wrong) it seems to be a less attractive point in time to try this strategy than it has been for some time. I was more into it with Storm/Sneak'n Show/Omnshow being top decks. I also like the extra discard vs Batterskulls and Stifles (not so much around?).

With that said it's good trying the main discard strategy every now and then to see if the deck can be made more allround. But whenever I do I like to also add a Liliana or two and/or a Gaddock so that the early discard vs the combo deck can be followed up with some relevant anti combo pressure. One extra discard vs Storm or Sneak/Omni will mostly just delay their win? Or what do you think?

I agree that in a combo heavy meta you wouldn't want to play Nic Fit, I agree the meta at the moment isn't particularly combo heavy. Online maybe 30% of decks are combo. But hat's still a sizeable percentage.

So here is how my reasoning went. Everyone is thinking and talking about how to make the miracles matchup from bad to 50:50 or better. My combo matchup is already 50:50, and there are a lot more combo decks than Miracles (10% of the meta is a lot, but less than 30%).

My matchup against creature decks is through the roof (obviously), so sacrificing some points here to help against combo seems like a good idea. It just so happens that thoughtsieze is good against miracles too. Matchup against midrange is fine and this doesnt really effect it either way.

I've found discard plus a threat to be enough against combo. Even a dryad abor + jitte quite happily gets me there. And Teeg has been maindeck for me for a year and I've found he gets in the way more than he helps, he isn't even good against all combo decks.. so to the sideboard he goes.

[Jain_Mor]

Sorry for double post, but I thought this nonsense would be relevant to everyone's interests...



Could have played T3 Sorin, but chose Tusk instead; the hard choices life gives us.

[Warden]

If hes the alter boy and im the priest, you got a Purdy mouth. haha

I already highlighted how wrong Warden was.

+1000? haha

There are a lot of intricacies for nic fit against many decks that can't be displayed on a sideboard primer because its too specific. Against LED dredge, gsz is the strongest card in your deck because it gets you scooz/drs. catching their dredgers is only good when they are light on them, otherwise you want to be hitting ichorids and the like. we can beat a huge GGT but without an active deed, we lose to FKZ kill. If they have multiple bridges, ewit back a decay to decay itself is a legit play.

I definitely want to apologize because having read what you posted (previous page or two), your argument makes a lot of sense. I don't want to shit on the good vibes of this thread -- it's hands down the most active and entertaining MTG deck thread I've been a part of in the past 2 years. #rightmywrongs

***
I have questions for folks. I'm 99% running Junk-fit this weekend at the monthly. I don't own badlands, so running Jund would be a financial hit I'm not 100% about (avoiding unnecessary purchases is preferable). I think Junk helps me more than Jund anyway (see: SB options), but maybe Pfires and REB is better for the meta? Regardless of color config, I'm 80% in favor of running 2x Witness main. She's really strong and I always want another.

Expected meta: Eli's UR delver, BUG delver, Grixis delver, Shardless BUG, SFM (pat riot and esper), Eldrazi.dec, other Nic Fits (scape, junk, bug), painter, lands.dec, and a handful of combo (reanimator, bryant if he shows up with storm, Omni, elves!). There's also some Goblins, Dnt, Miracles, Burn, Pox, etc. Personally, I take the expected meta and distill my 15 cards down to 3 big archetypes. This weekend that appears to be "fair blue decks", "fair midrange aggro", and "combo".

What's the SB plan for all of that? Is it worth spending slots and energy blowing up islands (choke, tsunami, from the ashes)? Do I proactively defend myself from spells with Leyline of Sanctity (burn, discard, combo decks)? How valuable is Abeyance? Do I drop Slaughter Games entirely? Liliana of the Veil in the 75? Is the new Sorin going to do anything productive, and is he going to be worth the money I'll need to shell out to buy him?

[TTX]

Warden, the new Sorin is the real deal. I'll post my deck in a couple hours for comparison, but I have followed the threads suggestion to drop S Games for Abeyance. It nullifies Miracles and Planeswalkers when you need to, plus it stops Elves and Storm, Ancenstral Visions and more, plus it replaces itself and you don't need to futs with Taiga or DRS in the early game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scott]

I just want to point out that Nic Fit was the 13th best-performing archetype last month, according to this site's and TC Deck's DTB rankings, which I believe is the deck's best month so far.

[Arianrhod]

I just want to point out that Nic Fit was the 13th best-performing archetype last month, according to this site's and TC Deck's DTB rankings, which I believe is the deck's best month so far.

We've been in the Decks to Beat area once or twice a long time ago, but I agree that it's been a while since we've been that high.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Spike Feeder
1 Spike Weaver
2 Siege Rhino
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Painful Truths

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Carpet of Flowers

This is where I'm currently at for Mythic this weekend. It occurred to me that I haven't gone back to Thune since Painful Truths was printed, and that was likely a mistake. I'm currently trying to find room to put the 22nd land back in, although I'm half debating with myself if I want to try 21 with 2x Night's Whispers and 1x Painful Truths, just to try to angle the deck to get a little bit more velocity, since this deck in particular will be fine with lands once it gets to 3-4 -- with Nissa, Courser, and Selvala all generating land drops, the question is really just that initial number of lands.

I'm probably going to keep trying to find room for the 22nd and chicken out on the 21+Whispers idea for this weekend. It does bear looking at, though.

I'm fairly shamelessly tuning the deck towards Shardless, Grixis Delver, and random.dec. Dromoka, for example, was a sideboard card last month for me -- but wildly overperformed for both myself and Warden, so she's getting promoted this month. I don't think that she's maindeckable in most rooms, still, but Mythic appears to be an exception to that.

[TTX]

Here's the deck I've been rocking. I feel like it's better with the planeswalkers and no red
[shameless plug] for Sorin, Grim Nemesis

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Abeyance
1 Golgari Charm


Abeyance is great when you whip it out when they most hate it. Most people have to read it
I'm thinking about cutting Garruk, replacing with PtE or some other removal. Any suggestions?
I think Sorin is fantastic when it hits, especially with SDT in play.
I know there has been some nay-saying against Meren, but I feel that she's always a hass. Especially
with Qasali, her experience counters get high way too fast. Remember, the experience counters are assigned to
the player, not her, so if she leaves play then returns, the counters remain on your.