[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Arianrhod]

@Matt, just scrolled through the archives, and people were on rhino for a while, but I think you were the first to talk about playing 4 :P
Also if anything you're legacy is introducing path to exile to the legacy format, kudos for that one

@Arian, lol that's some sweet sweet painful truths right there.

I think the fairest way to break it down is that everyone knew that Rhino was going to be playable in the deck. Matt's build was the first that FOCUSED on Rhino / centered around it. I agree that the biggest change he's introduced at this point is Path to Exile, but it's worth remembering that Path came directly out of his plan of centering on Rhino. Sylvan Library is also in large part attributed to Matt -- he brought that with him from Rock and it's found its way into a lot of our lists, likely wouldn't have without him.

I don't typically like assigning contributions to people or saying X invented this variant or that, because we're super communal here. We all work on ideas, we cross-pollinate between versions. Sometimes (Matt with Path is a good example) one specific person leads the charge on a particular card or concept, and popularizes that decision. I'm 100% certain that people played Path in Nic Fit before Matt. But Matt's the one who gets the credit because he popularized it. He explained the thought process behind it, he put in the testing with it, so he does get his name on that.

Just be very careful that that type of thing doesn't lead to ego trips. One of the quickest ways to destroy what we have here would be to start attributing everything to specific people. We all work hard, we all reap the benefits. Let's not go down that road.

[Echelon]

@Arianrhod: Sounds familiar. When getting stupid questions about my deck (Do you even play Legacy cards? etc.) I just refer to it as an EDH pile. After which I proceed to smash face. When people ask why someone is being particularly salty I answer "They just got their ass handed to them by Standard cards" .

The populace just doesn't know better. Cherish it.

[Tom4ik]

@Arianrhod: Sounds familiar. When getting stupid questions about my deck (Do you even play Legacy cards? etc.) I just refer to it as an EDH pile. After which I proceed to smash face. When people ask why someone is being particularly salty I answer "They just got their ass handed to them by Standard cards" .

The populace just doesn't know better. Cherish it.

I did get a kick out of the standard cards comment when the major decks during Inn-RtR played Delver, Snap, Decay, Drs, Lingering souls, Craterhoof, PiF, Liliana.

[Jain_Mor]

I don't typically like assigning contributions to people or saying X invented this variant or that, because we're super communal here. We all work on ideas, we cross-pollinate between versions. Sometimes (Matt with Path is a good example) one specific person leads the charge on a particular card or concept, and popularizes that decision. I'm 100% certain that people played Path in Nic Fit before Matt. But Matt's the one who gets the credit because he popularized it. He explained the thought process behind it, he put in the testing with it, so he does get his name on that.

Just be very careful that that type of thing doesn't lead to ego trips. One of the quickest ways to destroy what we have here would be to start attributing everything to specific people. We all work hard, we all reap the benefits. Let's not go down that road.

Was the point I was getting at, but you said it better than I.

Edit: Speaking of working hard, Noctalor, how did you find keranos? That's some spicy tech.

[sdematt]

I think the fairest way to break it down is that everyone knew that Rhino was going to be playable in the deck. Matt's build was the first that FOCUSED on Rhino / centered around it. I agree that the biggest change he's introduced at this point is Path to Exile, but it's worth remembering that Path came directly out of his plan of centering on Rhino. Sylvan Library is also in large part attributed to Matt -- he brought that with him from Rock and it's found its way into a lot of our lists, likely wouldn't have without him.

I don't typically like assigning contributions to people or saying X invented this variant or that, because we're super communal here. We all work on ideas, we cross-pollinate between versions. Sometimes (Matt with Path is a good example) one specific person leads the charge on a particular card or concept, and popularizes that decision. I'm 100% certain that people played Path in Nic Fit before Matt. But Matt's the one who gets the credit because he popularized it. He explained the thought process behind it, he put in the testing with it, so he does get his name on that.

Just be very careful that that type of thing doesn't lead to ego trips. One of the quickest ways to destroy what we have here would be to start attributing everything to specific people. We all work hard, we all reap the benefits. Let's not go down that road.

Thank you.

Obviously you guys have put in tons of effort and testing over the past year more than I have, so that's on you guys too :)

[Bobmans]

Won a local 28ppl tournament with my version of BUG Pod, i can write a small report if anyone is interested
Decklist on TC Decks

Congrats, i suppose it is the dame build as you posted in the pimp thread a while back. Thnx for posting a report.

There is a ton of shitposting about Nic-Fit on that sub, it's best to just ignore it. There's about 2 threads a day titled "getting into legacy, how viable is Nic-Fit to win my local gp" and it's constantly suggested as one of the best budget decks to get into the format with.

Haha, NicFit is fun, i recommend it as a very good experience. But good lord, taking down a GP with it is mega supa impossibly hard even for us, while we are mega supa experienced with it. And even then, there is like nothing that gets autopilotted into T8, especially for one that just entered Legacy.

[Arianrhod]

One of the key problems Nic Fit faces as a Grand Prix deck is that it's a nonblue deck that does not have Demonic Tutor for R that is trying to go deep in a 14+ round event. Eventually, the variance will catch up with you unless you run super hot. The hodge-podge of random shit matchups early on day 1 weeds out most of us, because as we've established before, we're a longterm metagame predator. We're very good vs the blue strategies on the whole, which is why we exist, basically, as well as any non-blue midrange deck basically just losing to us. But when you play vs Dredge, Enchantress, and Landstill as the first three matches of the day, for example, that's not good for us. If we survive to 4-0 or 5-0, we're pretty good odds of making day 2, but, then that pesky variance thing eventually happens. We lose a couple rounds to random landmine matchups, deep reanimators and such, we get outdrawn, we lose to ourselves. A low cash prize, like a top 32 or so, is usually about the best we can manage to scrape together.

I do think it's possible for Nic Fit to top 8 a GP, but it would require the stars to align perfectly for one of the most experienced pilots of the deck, perfect matchups, running hot with Tower draws, the works.

Our strength is much more in 5-8 round events. We can do short sprints....long distance marathons are bad for us.

[Ricardio]

One of the key problems Nic Fit faces as a Grand Prix deck is that it's a nonblue deck that does not have Demonic Tutor for R that is trying to go deep in a 14+ round event. Eventually, the variance will catch up with you unless you run super hot. The hodge-podge of random shit matchups early on day 1 weeds out most of us, because as we've established before, we're a longterm metagame predator. We're very good vs the blue strategies on the whole, which is why we exist, basically, as well as any non-blue midrange deck basically just losing to us. But when you play vs Dredge, Enchantress, and Landstill as the first three matches of the day, for example, that's not good for us. If we survive to 4-0 or 5-0, we're pretty good odds of making day 2, but, then that pesky variance thing eventually happens. We lose a couple rounds to random landmine matchups, deep reanimators and such, we get outdrawn, we lose to ourselves. A low cash prize, like a top 32 or so, is usually about the best we can manage to scrape together.

I do think it's possible for Nic Fit to top 8 a GP, but it would require the stars to align perfectly for one of the most experienced pilots of the deck, perfect matchups, running hot with Tower draws, the works.

Our strength is much more in 5-8 round events. We can do short sprints....long distance marathons are bad for us.

Do my eyes deceive me? Did I just read a naysayers pessimistic musings regarding nic fit as an out of shape sprinter, running from variance? I am so triggered.

This is legacy. People either play legacy or they come to legacy. Those who live in the light, know what they like and stand by it through thick and thin. Those who come to the light from the darkness(other formats), have to find their soulmate(deck) and understand themselves to better their relationship. Newcomers will gravitate to Blue brainstorm decks in hopes that by playing what they perceive as the strongest will bring them satisfaction and often times winning is enough to sate the desires of the weak. Nic fit is not a deck for the novice nor the faint of heart. We don't sling brainstorms and flash our force of will. We play cards that are not necessarily categorized as legacy cards. When people sit down to play legacy, they want to play cards that make them think of legacy: wasteland, force of will, etc. We choose to play the deck that we enjoy. We become part of this nic fit brotherhood because have recognized our desires and acted on them. Veteran explorer and Siege rhino appear on the surface to be edh cards or forgotten standard staples but below the surface, their power resides. Anyone can pick up miracles and be a degenerate but it takes a true player to consciously sleeve up nic fit and go into the fray with the intent of winning.

I honestly believe nic fit is unpopular with others and perceived as a cute fun deck. It isn't taken seriously because it doesn't look or play like a legacy deck. Nic fit has the tools to beat any deck and could take down a GP with the right amount of variance. I don't expect Arianrhod to put full faith in me or even nic fit but I certainly don't want doubt to spread that what we do in this thread is any less important or meaningful than any of the other threads on the source.

[Arianrhod]

I mean, myself and a number of other Nic Fitters that I know personally have gone deep in GPs before. I'm not saying that it can't happen. I'm just saying that it's not realistic to adopt the attitude of, "I'm going to build this deck, therefore I will at least Day 2 if not prize!" You really need the stars to align to make a deep run just by virtue of the way our deck is built. Definitely, it can happen. But, especially for a new player who's asking about if it can win a GP...I mean...it CAN. But after 5 years of existing, the deck's best GP result was I believe a top 16 by BUG Pod at one of the European GPs.

[Tom4ik]

I mean, myself and a number of other Nic Fitters that I know personally have gone deep in GPs before. I'm not saying that it can't happen. I'm just saying that it's not realistic to adopt the attitude of, "I'm going to build this deck, therefore I will at least Day 2 if not prize!" You really need the stars to align to make a deep run just by virtue of the way our deck is built. Definitely, it can happen. But, especially for a new player who's asking about if it can win a GP...I mean...it CAN. But after 5 years of existing, the deck's best GP result was I believe a top 16 by BUG Pod at one of the European GPs.

If you build a deck full of 1ofs and cute trick cards then yes. Running things like Top, Library, Truths, Gsz, Bstorm you can negate some of the variance. There is absolutely no reason the deck cannot do well in a longer tournament. The reason that you see decks with Bstorm and Ponder top8 those types of events so much is that they sacrifice some speed (generally) to add cantrips to the deck in order to reduce the variance that is inherit in magic. Run less specific tutors targets that suck when you draw them would help too.

I do not buy the idea that Nic fit isnt well suited to long rounds. That is an excuse to not build the most consistent deck and to continue to play "Nissa because 1 time when I flipped her she drew me a few cards so even though the card is not good almost any other time I will keep her". (that was just an example and not a specific slight at anybody)

[Noctalor]

As a bug pod player and a player that never tryed junk may i ask why no one is picking up the blue version?

Probably you lose some raw power, but i find brainstorm and now more than ever baleful strix to be powerhouse to not be understimated.

I see you talking about variance in a grand prix, my version has plenty of draws, your main problem is not to be stable and efficient, but you just tend to have a bad time when facing some situation like token generatos and jace with even board.

[Bobmans]

As a bug pod player and a player that never tryed junk may i ask why no one is picking up the buel version?

Buel version?

[Noctalor]

emh, blue

[maharis]

I killed a guy in round one, game one of the biggest Legacy GP ever by GSZ for Siege Rhino two months after it was released so I clearly invented it And yes I heard the salty "is that even a legacy card" muttered under his breath as he reshuffled his Painter deck

I actually am surprised to read the post naming Dredge, Enchantress, and Landstill as problem matchups. While those decks are more "broken" than Nic Fit -- or maybe it's better to say they have more broken potential draws -- we have several tools. To me the appeal of this deck is Pernicious Deed, Green Sun's Zenith, Cabal Therapy, and all of those cards are solid in these matchups:

Dredge: Therapy to break bridges, Deed to mop up tokens, big life-gainers
Enchantress: Pernicious Deed is like a 10 for 1, Siege Rhino loops beat Confinement
Landstill: Deed kills animated factories under a Standstill, we can just jam our value creatures that mitigate the problem of letting them draw 3

If I am thinking about a deck for a serious tournament, the No. 1 thing that scares me with Nic Fit is Miracles. I have been testing this deck a lot but I just can't pull the trigger on game day because Miracles is so tough and you are almost guaranteed to play against it if you're going to play 2-3 rounds at a serious tournament. Variance is a consideration, but even then our topdecks are generally better than the average deck. Even combo doesn't scare me that much because I'll just have 10 cards to board in against it in addition to things that are incidentally good vs. them (Therapy, lifegain, Sigarda). I'll take random dreck all day if I don't have to play against Miracles.

I actually was thinking today that this deck should just play 4 Painful Truths. It's hard to do that if you're not on a committed ramp plan with lots of incidental life gain -- but that just sounds like this deck, no? That card is freaking insane in the right situation, I am definitely going to play it the next time I hit a competitive REL tournament if I can find the right fit.

I have thought about BUG as well because Baleful Strix is just a great card right now (unless they have maindeck dack because your life is misery like mine). But Rhinos are just so satisfying to bash in with.

[TTX]

Do my eyes deceive me? Did I just read a naysayers pessimistic musings regarding nic fit as an out of shape sprinter, running from variance? I am so triggered.

This is legacy. People either play legacy or they come to legacy. Those who live in the light, know what they like and stand by it through thick and thin. Those who come to the light from the darkness(other formats), have to find their soulmate(deck) and understand themselves to better their relationship. Newcomers will gravitate to Blue brainstorm decks in hopes that by playing what they perceive as the strongest will bring them satisfaction and often times winning is enough to sate the desires of the weak. Nic fit is not a deck for the novice nor the faint of heart. We don't sling brainstorms and flash our force of will. We play cards that are not necessarily categorized as legacy cards. When people sit down to play legacy, they want to play cards that make them think of legacy: wasteland, force of will, etc. We choose to play the deck that we enjoy. We become part of this nic fit brotherhood because have recognized our desires and acted on them. Veteran explorer and Siege rhino appear on the surface to be edh cards or forgotten standard staples but below the surface, their power resides. Anyone can pick up miracles and be a degenerate but it takes a true player to consciously sleeve up nic fit and go into the fray with the intent of winning.

I honestly believe nic fit is unpopular with others and perceived as a cute fun deck. It isn't taken seriously because it doesn't look or play like a legacy deck. Nic fit has the tools to beat any deck and could take down a GP with the right amount of variance. I don't expect Arianrhod to put full faith in me or even nic fit but I certainly don't want doubt to spread that what we do in this thread is any less important or meaningful than any of the other threads on the source.

One of the key problems Nic Fit faces as a Grand Prix deck is that it's a nonblue deck that does not have Demonic Tutor for R that is trying to go deep in a 14+ round event. Eventually, the variance will catch up with you unless you run super hot. The hodge-podge of random shit matchups early on day 1 weeds out most of us, because as we've established before, we're a longterm metagame predator. We're very good vs the blue strategies on the whole, which is why we exist, basically, as well as any non-blue midrange deck basically just losing to us. But when you play vs Dredge, Enchantress, and Landstill as the first three matches of the day, for example, that's not good for us. If we survive to 4-0 or 5-0, we're pretty good odds of making day 2, but, then that pesky variance thing eventually happens. We lose a couple rounds to random landmine matchups, deep reanimators and such, we get outdrawn, we lose to ourselves. A low cash prize, like a top 32 or so, is usually about the best we can manage to scrape together.

I do think it's possible for Nic Fit to top 8 a GP, but it would require the stars to align perfectly for one of the most experienced pilots of the deck, perfect matchups, running hot with Tower draws, the works.

Our strength is much more in 5-8 round events. We can do short sprints....long distance marathons are bad for us.

Great say, sirs.

I agree with both, but especially Ari in reality. I find the deck to be very exhausting to play in a marathon, most matches go 40+ minutes, and each game requires high levels of nuance to beat the field. I may not be the best Nic Fit player, but I've been practicing quite a bit, and it is tough, and I don't believe anyone saying this deck is easy to play. I find it to be the most fun deck to play in any format, but it is hard to stay on top of my game after 5 rounds. Maybe I'm just not cut out for big tournaments, but this deck can be hard to pilot (to its fullest).
Rhinos and Zeniths are the best, and I love squashing "Tier 1" decks with "standard" cards.

[Arianrhod]

I wasn't so much saying that they're bad matchups, as that they're random and not "tier 1" decks. They're a good example of the type of stuff you can play against in the early rounds of a GP, which you basically can't prepare for / sideboard for at all.

[Warden]

If you build a deck full of 1ofs and cute trick cards then yes. Running things like Top, Library, Truths, Gsz, Bstorm you can negate some of the variance. There is absolutely no reason the deck cannot do well in a longer tournament. The reason that you see decks with Bstorm and Ponder top8 those types of events so much is that they sacrifice some speed (generally) to add cantrips to the deck in order to reduce the variance that is inherit in magic. Run less specific tutors targets that suck when you draw them would help too.

I do not buy the idea that Nic fit isnt well suited to long rounds. That is an excuse to not build the most consistent deck and to continue to play "Nissa because 1 time when I flipped her she drew me a few cards so even though the card is not good almost any other time I will keep her". (that was just an example and not a specific slight at anybody)

Not to get off track, but there is a lot of truth in what Tom4ik is saying. I tend to believe the best legacy decks win because they mitigate variance. Look at Miracles and Delver (have been elite for many years): both are supported by cantrips and fetchlands. In Miracle's case there's also Top. The cumulative effect of that amount of library filtering and shuffling is simply "being able to see more of your deck". I think being able to effectively see your deck with 1/2 your cards is where I want to be right now. The bigger question is how do I get there beyond typical inclusions: veterans, fetchlands, tops, zeniths. I'll also try to streamline my decklist, which is undoubtedly the hardest part.

On-topic: As Kev has said before, NicFit is the scary "holy shit I need to deal with this" boogeyman in the room. The deck goes against-the-grain of the format. We ramp basics, play random boom-booms, and laugh as our shit destroys theirs. All while having fun with hipster card choices.

[Ganfar]

I tested to play Nissa in my Jund nic-fit.

She was like most of you talked about, not so inpresiv. She is really nice when you flip her but takes too long. Courser has better body and can help you more during the game. So couser > nissa.

Meren is not "need this card out now card" like huntermaster and rhino. Meren has mostly do good work aginst midrange och BGx, that can't kill her and I get value. I don't know if I want to replace her for another card...

[sdematt]

As a bug pod player and a player that never tryed junk may i ask why no one is picking up the blue version?

Probably you lose some raw power, but i find brainstorm and now more than ever baleful strix to be powerhouse to not be understimated.

I see you talking about variance in a grand prix, my version has plenty of draws, your main problem is not to be stable and efficient, but you just tend to have a bad time when facing some situation like token generatos and jace with even board.

Reasoning? Your creatures and removal are garbage (no Path sucks). Your only saving grace is Jace, and Brainstorm. I've played against various flavours of BUG Fit before, and never had problems beating it.

The problem is it basically has to be a control deck bound on resolving Jaces, yet you don't have as much cheap removal as efficient as Terminus and STP. See what I mean? I think, realistically, you can just build BUG Control (non-Shardless) and just fare better.

[Tao]

Claiming that Nic Fit - or any other deck - has better/worse chances to do well in tournaments with more/less rounds due to variance is complete bullshit. Pilot fatigue yes, but not "lack of draw/ deck manipulation" or anything similar. It makes absolutely no sense. The winning percentage for games and winning chance for the tournament does not change at all, no matter if you play a 200 round tournament or a 3 round tournament.