[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

@uncletiggy: You're right about card choices, I agree.

I also like the idea of grouping together similar cards, like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse.

I'll start compiling in the morning. Everyone feel free to chime in.

[Bobmans]

crammed rhinos and stoneforge in the same list

After a few games with that list i can conclude that
* the raw power output is insane. No time for bullshit, slamming Rhino and Batterskull ASAP.
* there was a gap in the green creature curve at 2 and 3 mana. It was pretty awkward.
- but i wasnt missing stuff like Witness and Courser..
* all of the nr's felt exaclty right. 21 lands and 60 cards total.
* wiggleroom is probably 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 SFM and/or 1 Rhino.
* Unglytiggy set a good base with his list. Going forward i am interested in the data that Echolon is compiling.

Working on towards Frankfurt's Perfect 75 Rhinofestival.

[Tao]

Ill try Sorin.

Good thing about him is that he is good whenever you need help.

1 life, Gurmag Angler in play and Bolt on top of opponent's library? Sorin is what you need.
Low on cards in an attrition war? Sorin is what you need.

Also he kills Jace EtB. The life loss could also be very nice with Rhinos.

[Navsi]

So I'm currently looking at something like this:

21 lands (8-10 fetches)

4 GSZ

15 Interaction:
4 Therapy
4 Path
3 Deed
2 Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Jitte

15 Finisher:
(4 GSZ)
3 SFM
3 Rhino
3 Deathrite
1 Sigarda
1 Batterskull

10 Ramp:
(4 GSZ)
(3 Deathrite)
3 Veteran Explorer

13 Filter / Tutor / Draw:
(4 GSZ)
(3 SFM)
3 Top
1 Painful Truths
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness

39 Nonland cards
21 lands
---
60

Sideboard:

2-4 Thoughtseize
2-3 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sorin
1 Teeg
1 QPM
0-3 Golgari Charm
0-5 other meta cards

Things to note:
Second Painful Truths -> Tireless Tracker.
No Dryad Arbor, makes equipment a bit worse. Do we want to try to jam in Meren + Arbor somewhere?
Do we want a SoFI in the main / what does it replace?
We only have one recursion spell (witness) since no Meren. Volrath's Stronghold in the land slots?
If we want more interaction or draw we could swap out some of the other one for Abzan Charm e.g. -1 Path -1 Truths +2 Abzan Charm

Does this look like a reasonable starting point to you guys?

[Plm]

After testing abzan charm doesn't cut the mustard.

The removal mode is useless because either : it is the only spell you can play this turn due to those horrible color requirement, or you don't get to play it because your mana is under duress (looking at marit lage and the delver company ) without talking about an conditional removal (sorry I'm a removal but I don't do jackshit against elves )

The card draw could be interesting but we are trading instant speed for a card (hint, it suck since we are a tap out deck) witness gives you the same amount of CA but is a zenith target.

If some one successfully used the +1+1 mode let him speak henceforth or remain silent thereafter (the only times I tried it I got punished with a removal)

So in summary I've been there, "you can't get there from here, well, you can but it won't be fun"

@nasvi : if you take the stoneforge road you should have arbor in your list. It's a mistake not to play it, turning your late game fetch into an hasty 4 turns clock (like you know after a terminus) is one of the main appeal of the stoneforge package. Also Meren is a nice CA engine that doesn't die to bolt and decay and synergise well with Meren.

[uncletiggy]

For a non stonforge build I'm looking at this breakdown:

4 vet
3 drs
1 scooze
1 qpm
1 ewitness
4 rhino
1 sigarda
1 tusk

2 top
4 zenith
2 truths
1 nightmare

4 therapy
3 decay
3 path
3 deed
1 pulse

22 lands

3 bayou
1 scrub
2 savanna
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
2 tower
4 catacombs
4 windswept heath

Sideboard:
2 ts
3 surgical
2 grip
1 teeg
2 needle
1 pulse
1 sorin
1 e plaque
2 bridge

Mana:
15g(7) 14b(6) 13w(5)

Distribution:
11 ramp
20 interaction
12 Manipulation(16 shuffle)
14 finisher

Curve:
1-16
2-9
3-15
4-8
5-6

Its worth noting nightmare is the weakest card md but plays a vital role in providing extra reach with the sorin ebridge sideboard plan.

[sdematt]

Good thing about him is that he is good whenever you need help.

1 life, Gurmag Angler in play and Bolt on top of opponent's library? Sorin is what you need.
Low on cards in an attrition war? Sorin is what you need.

Also he kills Jace EtB. The life loss could also be very nice with Rhinos.

I'm just wondering how kills Jace. Do you mean resetting him? Since Jace obviously Gets up to, say, 7 if he's fatesealed twice. I guess you're getting him in range? Just wondering, since I keep seeing that he "kills" Jace. I guess you're hoping they haven't ticked him up a bunch?

[sdematt]

For a non stonforge build I'm looking at this breakdown:

4 vet
3 drs
1 scooze
1 qpm
1 ewitness
4 rhino
1 sigarda
1 tusk

2 top
4 zenith
2 truths
1 nightmare

4 therapy
3 decay
3 path
3 deed
1 pulse

22 lands

3 bayou
1 scrub
2 savanna
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
2 tower
4 catacombs
4 windswept heath

Sideboard:
2 ts
3 surgical
2 grip
1 teeg
2 needle
1 pulse
1 sorin
1 e plaque
2 bridge

Mana:
15g(7) 14b(6) 13w(5)

Distribution:
11 ramp
20 interaction
12 Manipulation(16 shuffle)
14 finisher

Curve:
1-16
2-9
3-15
4-8
5-6

Its worth noting nightmare is the weakest card md but plays a vital role in providing extra reach with the sorin ebridge sideboard plan.

I definitely don't mind Recurring Nightmare, I just know I would see it more if you ran Intent. I know slots are tight, of course.

[Brael]

After testing abzan charm doesn't cut the mustard.

I mostly agree. It looks great on paper but it's not good enough in practice.

Has anyone ever really tried Dromoka's Command? It can generate a 2 for 1 filling the CA role, but it's also just solid as removal or sometimes even stopping the opponents removal.

Edit: Stealth edit opposed to double post

Things to note:
Second Painful Truths -> Tireless Tracker.
No Dryad Arbor, makes equipment a bit worse. Do we want to try to jam in Meren + Arbor somewhere?
Do we want a SoFI in the main / what does it replace?
We only have one recursion spell (witness) since no Meren. Volrath's Stronghold in the land slots?
If we want more interaction or draw we could swap out some of the other one for Abzan Charm e.g. -1 Path -1 Truths +2 Abzan Charm

Does this look like a reasonable starting point to you guys?

Here's what I've been playing with for the past couple days now:

Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy

Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 22
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abzan Charm

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
3 Dark Confidant
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke

Still undecided on the 2nd Tracker, the local store is sold out of them though so I've got a bit to decide.

Have been using Meren+Arbor very little. Usually I would rather recur something of greater value, and I find I GSZ for Meren only in a small number of circumstances. On the other hand I have been using Volrath's a Dryad Arbor, then replay the Arbor with Courser quite a bit. It's a nice little trick. In a couple cases I've also used it to guarantee a 0 for Bob to hit, or in other cases combined with Courser foreknowledge to put another random creature on top to reduce damage, it's always nice to recur DRS since he's a threat and only costs you 1. I'm rethinking Meren for this reason, the slot might just be better as a 4th Siege Rhino or maybe even a 3 drop, I think I floated the idea yesterday of turning Meren into Tracker #2.

Can't comment on the SFM specific things though, I've never tried it in the build since I don't own any. It does seem to me though that having a way to tutor an equipment holder off of fetchlands is powerful. I know Arbor is pretty controversial though but it has always been my experience that for every opening hand it screws up, it enables you in 10 other games.

Also, on the Horizon Canopy in my list. It's awful. It costs way too much life, the goal was to try and work in some other mana sink/card advantage but I don't think Canopy is what we're looking for. The lack of a pain free way to tap it is a deal breaker because we're ideally tapping all of our mana every turn. An early Canopy translates into 5-6 life lost by the time you're ready to be rid of it.

[Arianrhod]

More detailed thoughts tomorrow or Monday. Went 3-0 into 0-3 at Mythic, and ended up 1 spot out of prize. Started off beating DnT, Hollywood on Painter, and BUG Delver, then lost to Miracles, Grixis Delver, and Miracles again.

Delver was mostly my keeping a bad hand in g3 and getting punished for it. Miracles, I feel, is unwinnable without Slaughter Games. There is simply no other good way to deal with Jace, and he just takes over the game to the point where we literally just lose as soon as he hits play. Shardless and other decks we can pressure it enough to kill it. I made the decision to cut the Taiga and the slaughters and just be Abzan for the day, and I paid for that pretty severely. Delver I mostly attribute my loss to the fact that I got 2 hours of sleep last night and was waning pretty heavily at that point, because my keep was definitely a trap, and I fell into it.

Tireless Tracker overperformed on the day. Consider me in on that, although Courser was still pretty underwhelming. I think Tracker does what Courser wants to do, just better and is a better use for that slot. Carpets also overperformed out of the board. Teeg was super questionable and may have in fact cost me a game against Miracles. Making GSZ into interaction is powerful, certainly, but considering it costs us the use of GSZ, which is probably our best card, I don't think that it's worth it.

Again, I'll post again in greater detail soon.

[Echelon]

Alrighty. Compilation time for SE Fit so far. I'll be taking it from the top, so this'll be a long post.

Requirements:
- Must be able to go over the top of most opponents
- Must be able to handle/mitigate mana denial strategies
- Must be able to break through lock pieces
- Must be able to handle opposing threats on the board
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce green mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce black mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce white mana on turn 2
- No card may cost >5 mana
- No card may have triple mana of any 1 colour in its manacost
- GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value
- Creatures must either provide mandatory utility effects, be very hard to kill or have a very high power/mana ratio

I didn't see any pro >6 mana posts, so I'm sticking with >5 for that particular requirement.

We lose:
- Against quick combo.
- When our threats get dealt with (looking at you miracle).
- When the opponent goes bigger.
- When the opponent disrupt the explorer plan so that we play a slow deck that dies to Daze

Slot distribution:
21-22 land
16 removal/interaction
13 CA/library manipulation
11-12 finishers
2-3 CA/library manipulation AND (removal/interaction OR finisher)

Suggested mana curve:
17 CMC 1 cards
10 CMC 2 cards
5 CMC 3 cards
4 CMC 4 cards
3 CMC 5 cards

Bear in mind that this curve is mostly a guideline. Feel free to shuffle around with the distribution.

Viable cards per category:
Lands
Swamp
Forest
Plains
Verdant Catacombs
Windswept Heath
Marsh Flats
Bayou
Scrubland
Savanah
Phyrexian Tower
Volrath's Stronghold
Removal/interaction
Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek
Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate/Anguished Unmaking/Council's Judgment
Innocent Blood
Abrupt Decay
Gaddock Teeg
Scavenging Ooze
Innocent Blood
Golgari Charm
Shriekmaw/Dismember
Qasali Pridemage/Reclamation Sage
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Abzan Charm
Lilliana of the Veil
Eternal Witness
Deathrite Shaman
Library Manipulation/CA
Veteran Explorer
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Sylvan Library
Sensei's Divining Top
Tireless Tracker
Mirri's Guile
Courser of Kruphix
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Painful Truths
Skeletal Scrying
Hymn to Tourach
Pernicious Deed
Toxic Deluge
Wood Elves
Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Eternal Witness
Gitrog Monster
Dark Confidant
Diabolic Intent
Stoneforge Mystic
Abzan Charm
Recurring Nightmare
Finishers
Green Sun's Zenith
Siege Rhino
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Thragtusk
Thrun, the Last Troll
Deathrite Shaman
Baneslayer Angel
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Dryad Arbor
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Archangel of Thune
Batterskull
Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Abyssal Persecutor

Next step: filling categories. First category: Finishers. This kinda dictates how we plan to finish a game, so that lets us build the rest of our deck around it.

Finishers, 12 of them + 3 that also perfom a CA or interaction/removal role, so 15 cards total.

Here's mine to start with

Finisher/CA:
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth (Meren + Tracker + Dryad Arbor seem like a nice little loop)

Finisher
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor (due to Meren)
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Seems I'm bending my curve a bit. I like to have a big piece of meat to go with my potatoes.

Even though some cards in this list may have double roles, I'm appointing them to these for now. We're probably going to iterate through this process a few times.

We've now arrived at the hard part of the process. I think we need to keep in mind that we won't end up with something drastically different from what we're used to and that's fine. It's also perfectly fine for people to come up with different sets for each category. The main goal of this project should be to see if looking at deckbuilding this way enables us to come up with configurations we wouldn't normally think of.

Keep giving eachother the space to come up with ideas and stay respectful toward one another. We've done a great job so far, but this is the part where we start butting heads. That's a normal thing to do and a natural part of the process. Keep an open mind and try not to offend others or be offended too easily. If someone critiques something, it's probably your idea being critiqued and not you as a person. Please remember that.

[Brael]

Seems I'm bending my curve a bit. I like to have a big piece of meat to go with my potatoes.

Think I'm going to play with the Bob idea and see if I can work in 1-2 MB opposed to the SB them for Explorer plan. Studying other Legacy decks which use him, it looks like you want a curve of no more than 70 CMC in your deck, after adding it all up and removing one activation/hit worth of lifegain (DRS activation, Batterskull hit, etc). So I think we can count 2 Coursers as 5 in this case (.5 life from each), each DRS as -1, Ooze as 1, and Siege Rhinos as 1. Plus there's top which is a whole other benefit I'm not even accouting for. Provided we can stay above 8 life against a Bolt deck or above 5 against someone else, that should work. That leads me to believe a Bob build wants the 4th Rhino over Meren while a non Bob build wants Meren. It may be the 2 we're looking for to up that slot on the curve.

Do Courser/Bob compete with each other for slots? One wants you to use Top to put lands on top while the other wants you to put lands 2nd from the top. It seems to me like one cancels the other.

You're probably not at the list point yet but I'm working a bit ahead and putting stuff together. I think this meets all requirements, though a few card choices are questionable. This is probably what I'll be testing at my next opportunity to do so, which could be tomorrow, or it could be in 2 weeks... no way to tell.
Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Blighted Fen

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Dark Confidant
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 20
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dromoka's Command

Edit: The elusive search for a mana sink land continues. I'm wondering if Blighted Fen is powerful enough with our ability to ramp, Karakas is a possibility as well even if it's not that great of a mana sink. Maybe Mishra's Factory?

[Bobmans]

Alrighty. Compilation time for SE Fit so far. I'll be taking it from the top, so this'll be a long post.

Slot distribution:
21-22 land
16 removal/interaction
13 CA/library manipulation
11-12 finishers
2-3 CA/library manipulation AND (removal/interaction OR finisher)

Suggested mana curve:
17 CMC 1 cards
10 CMC 2 cards
5 CMC 3 cards
4 CMC 4 cards
3 CMC 5 cards

I've made (yet another) spreadsheet that calculates the above based on an input decklist. If you want the original file please PM me.
The file also checks total output mana colors and requirements. Adding/removing cards is also fairly easy.

What the list cannot do is take 1 card with multiple slot distribution types. For it will be hard to distinguish the totals and where it makes the difference.

Couple questions regaring somedetails:
What is the CMC for Dismember? Since you often cast it for 1c + 4 life, but we can actually pay it's CMC in mana.
What color's do fetchlands produce? Either all 3 colors or the 2 printed colors?
Should GSZ be taking into account when calculating the mana curve AT ALL? It's CMC will be flexible, the CMC will be based in the total average CMC of the list plus 1. But this is not true if you are using it for ramp CMC1/2, or as a finisher CMC 5-6.

Edit: added % to the color requirement and production for easier comparison.

Edit2: Fixed Bayou to make GB instead of GW. Added KotR. Added some rows in the calculate sheet.

[Tao]

- Confidant is a bad main deck card in Nic Fit. He is best against decks that put no creature pressure on the board or on your life total, like Combo or Miracles. Against stuff like Grixis, D&T or Eldrazis he is terrible.
- Tireless Tracker is a great card as a 1-off. Now you can use GSZ to refill your hand when you flood. I would not recommend playing more because when you are light on mana he is only a Gorilla Warrior.
- If you search for flexible Mana Sinks, just play more copies of Eternal Witness. She is about 25 times better than all alternatives that were posted so far.

[Warden]

More detailed thoughts tomorrow or Monday. Went 3-0 into 0-3 at Mythic, and ended up 1 spot out of prize. Started off beating DnT, Hollywood on Painter, and BUG Delver, then lost to Miracles, Grixis Delver, and Miracles again.

Delver was mostly my keeping a bad hand in g3 and getting punished for it. Miracles, I feel, is unwinnable without Slaughter Games. There is simply no other good way to deal with Jace, and he just takes over the game to the point where we literally just lose as soon as he hits play. Shardless and other decks we can pressure it enough to kill it. I made the decision to cut the Taiga and the slaughters and just be Abzan for the day, and I paid for that pretty severely. Delver I mostly attribute my loss to the fact that I got 2 hours of sleep last night and was waning pretty heavily at that point, because my keep was definitely a trap, and I fell into it.

Tireless Tracker overperformed on the day. Consider me in on that, although Courser was still pretty underwhelming. I think Tracker does what Courser wants to do, just better and is a better use for that slot. Carpets also overperformed out of the board. Teeg was super questionable and may have in fact cost me a game against Miracles. Making GSZ into interaction is powerful, certainly, but considering it costs us the use of GSZ, which is probably our best card, I don't think that it's worth it.

Again, I'll post again in greater detail soon.

NO! Oh dude I was hoping to read you took it down after I left.
I went R1 loss to DnT (unbelievable how he got through 2 deeds while I draw into nothing), and game-loss violation R2 for a mis-registered deck. Paolo on Grixis wins in 3 turns. I name therapy turn 1 on delver. See 3 bstorms. He untaps for his turn 1 and drops the top-decked delver. fml. 0-2 drop.

The list sucked. I made too many last-minute changes.
I'm not salty. I think it's Karma making corrections + bringing me back down to earth with the law of averages lol.

Small sample size comments
-1 Tracker is all I'd run.
-KotR is good in the deck (I tested 2 in the SB and they were solid threats/can filter)
-I acquired poppa Sorin. But he should be a SB card
-Why did I bail on Sakura? Never again! Plus he synergizes with everything (incl. Tracker)
-Watching ultimate NicFit lose to Miracles was eye opening. Obviously he had misplays, but Kev is spot on. You cannot possibly contend with Miracles without Slaughter Games. I'd make it a point to run 3x with the red source in the side.

Moving forward
I've switched sides on SFM. Next month I'm giving it a try unless someone presents something better.
*3 Rhino, 3 SFM (Jitte, Batter, 1 sword of X/Y) is a nice starting point.
*I want 1 Sakura, 1 Tracker, 1 KotR, 1 Witness to compliment

[Koplinchen]

My friend won GPT Prague on Saturday with BUG:

4 Veterna Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren
1 Tragtusk
1 Grave Titan

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 SDT
1 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical I.
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

Side:
2 Back to Basics
2 P. Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Swan Song
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstorm Pulse
1 Golgari Charm


We worked on the deck together. Its a blast to plays. Brainstorm helps against clunky draws and Deed+Jace is a "nice fit". Back to Basics makes some unwinnable match-ups almost easy.
Invasive Surgery is a wonderful spell with Strix.

His report:
R1: Infect 2:1 - in the third he conceded to my BtB+Deed
R2: UR Delver 2:0 - in one game he had only creatures - I had 2vets+2therapies+bayou - I opened with Therapy on Daze and the resto of the game was formality
R3: Burn 2:0 - very difficult with this list (my opponent was played under mindslaver - you know the things that happen on Friday night)
R4: ID
R5: ID

T8: Lands 2:0 - he couldnt find DD in time - my ooze ate him. In the second I kept this - fetch, needle, surgical, BtB, SDT, Therapy, Fow - I drew lands in the next rounds. I knew he brought in Grips so I waited with my BtB - named Grip and won. Funny moment was when I attacked with Strix and he "mazed" it with BtB in play...
T4: UWR stone-mentor 2:0 - he never had an answer for my Deed, I played carefuly around StP and after Jace hit play he never came back.
T2: My frind already had byes so he conceded. It only cost me a kidney.

See you during GP Prague!

[Plm]

A scapefit player just took Ovinospring in Milano.

http://www.ovinotournament.com/legac...t-ovinospring/

Anyone knows if he is around ?

[Brael]

- Confidant is a bad main deck card in Nic Fit. He is best against decks that put no creature pressure on the board or on your life total, like Combo or Miracles. Against stuff like Grixis, D&T or Eldrazis he is terrible.
- Tireless Tracker is a great card as a 1-off. Now you can use GSZ to refill your hand when you flood. I would not recommend playing more because when you are light on mana he is only a Gorilla Warrior.
- If you search for flexible Mana Sinks, just play more copies of Eternal Witness. She is about 25 times better than all alternatives that were posted so far.

Tried Bob against Grixis Delver specifically because of this a little earlier. I found I was overloading their removal and not losing very much life to him. My opponent was prioritizing killing him though so he never stuck around for long, usually just 0-1 cards. That could have been wrong on my opponents part against us. Since you have more experience with Confidant I wouldn't mind some feedback there. Was my opponent playing poorly by killing Bob over some of my other cards here? Such as using Terminate on Bob leaving him soft to an eventual Rhino.

Really liked Tracker, I was overloading my opponents removal enough that it wasn't reliably dying, but even if it dies right away assuming you pick your moment you're going to get a 2 for 1 out of it. In one of my games I had a moment where my opponent was tapped out and I was at 3 mana. I played tracker, played/cracked a fetch, made 2 clues, then even used my GSZ for Arbor for a third clue. Tracker died to a Terminate the instant my opponent untapped but the damage was already done and I ended up with a four for 1 once the clues were cashed in.

All games were without a SB. Lost the first 3 to some pretty awful opening hands and mulligans (talking, going to 4-5 every time) but I think that's just variance, though the Blighted Fen screwed me in one and never helped me. Won the other 3, usually being up 5-6 cards by the end of things and always at a healthy life total (12+).

[Jain_Mor]

Alrighty. Compilation time for SE Fit so far. I'll be taking it from the top, so this'll be a long post.

Requirements:
- Must be able to go over the top of most opponents
- Must be able to handle/mitigate mana denial strategies
- Must be able to break through lock pieces
- Must be able to handle opposing threats on the board
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce green mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce black mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce white mana on turn 2
- No card may cost >5 mana
- No card may have triple mana of any 1 colour in its manacost
- GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value
- Creatures must either provide mandatory utility effects, be very hard to kill or have a very high power/mana ratio


We lose:
- Against quick combo.
- When our threats get dealt with (looking at you miracle).
- When the opponent goes bigger.
- When the opponent disrupt the explorer plan so that we play a slow deck that dies to Daze

Slot distribution:
21-22 land
16 removal/interaction
13 CA/library manipulation
11-12 finishers
2-3 CA/library manipulation AND (removal/interaction OR finisher)

Sorry I'm a day late, but I really must reorganise this list and change a few things before we move on.
- I'll define the categories more clearly according to the roles we want them to fill when we put them in your decks.
- Cards will be moved around, sideboard cards will be cut
- I'll then relist everything in turn relevance order, which isn't always the same as CMC (courser and tracker aren't card advantage until you hit 4 mana despite being 3 cmc for example).

Viable cards per category:

Lands
Verdant Catacombs
Windswept Heath
Marsh Flats
Bayou
Scrubland
Savanah
Swamp
Forest
Plains
Karakas
Phyrexian Tower
Volrath's Stronghold
Man Lands

Ramp
(cards that accelerate your mana)

Deathrite Shaman
Dryad Abor
Veteran Explorer
Sakura Tribe Elder
Phyrexian Tower
Knight of the Reliquary

Answers
(cards that are used to trade/answer opponents cards/strategies; cards in parenthesis answer narrow cards/strategies and shouldn't really count towards maindeck counts to be honest)

(Karakas)
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek
(Deathrite Shaman)
Hymn to Tourach
Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares
Dismember
Innocent Blood
Abrupt Decay
Shriekmaw
(Gaddock Teeg)
(Scavenging Ooze)
(Qasali Pridemage)
(Reclamation Sage)
Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate/Anguished Unmaking/Council's Judgment
Abzan Charm
Liliana of the Veil
Toxic Deluge
Pernicious Deed
Umezawa's Jitte
(Sword of Fire and Ice)

Card Selection
(cards that decrease variance, this is where gsun belongs..)

Mirri's Guile (not with deed.. so never?)
Sensei's Divining Top
Gsun Zenith
Sylvan Library (Pay 8 life and it's card advantage or 4 if they decay it..)
Diabolic Intent
Volrath's Stronghold

Card Advantage
(cards that get you ahead on cards whether your opponent has permanents or not, some of these also decrease variance)

SFM*
Hymn to Tourach
Dark Confidant
Painful Truths
Abzan Charm
Eternal Witness
Wood Elves
Nissa
Recurring Nightmare
Meren
Tireless Tracker
Courser of Kruphix
Skeletal Scrying
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
The Gitrog Monster
Planeswalkers

Resilient Threats
(Not going to list every creature in the deck -.- just the ones we play because they are hard to answer and can reliably end the game)

Man lands
SFM/Equipment*
Siege Rhino
Thrun
Abyssal Persecutor*
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Thragtusk
Batterskull
Baneslayer Angel
Archangel of Thune*
Planeswalkers

*denotes cards requiring 4+ slots

Next step: filling categories. First category: Finishers. This kinda dictates how we plan to finish a game, so that lets us build the rest of our deck around it.

Finishers, 12 of them + 3 that also perform a CA or interaction/removal role, so 15 cards total.

I'm not so sure this is best place to start, or the best way to think about it. What finishers we play doesn't dictate how we plan to finish the game, our game plan dictates how we finish the game.

Our Plan A is to force the game out of the early turns that Legacy decks usually revolve around using ramp, or survive it using efficient answers, so that we can dominate the mid-late game our deck is designed to win, that most other decks aren't comfortable with, using card advantage and threats resilient to typical answers in the format (bolt/decay/stp/terminus/counter spells)

As long as your deck plays enough resilient threats (4 or more?) and enough card selection / card advantage to reliably find them, you shouldn't have a problem closing out the game with them and any other random bodies that are left lying around (DRS, eternal witness etc). People have used all sorts of resilient threats to win with this deck, which is part of the fun of it, but is also kind of a distraction right? The most important part is creating the right combination of ramp / answers / card selection that most consistently forces a legacy match into the late game that allows our deck to deploy those resilient threats and card advantage.

So that being said, it seems to be the main complaints in the forum that our decks aren't consistent enough, our combo matchup could be better and our miracles matchup is rough.

We all already run 2/3 tops and 4 Gsun's as consistency slots. We can either run more slots for this, supplement them with efficient card advantage (not looking at you courser/meren), run more versatile answers to make the game to run longer or a combination of the three (my preference). How many people here have tried running 4 tops? I know I haven't. We should have enough shuffle effects to ship them back when we draw two?

4 top + 4 gsun mimics the ponder/brainstorm nonsense we see in the world.

15+ Answers does sound like a reasonable number, keeping in mind our goals and our issues I'm going to push for the inclusion of more discard again. It's just an efficient, curve filling, catch all answer that we have access to that ups our game against our problem matchups without being useless against other (looking at you teeg..)

4 Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
6-8 Spot removal
2-4 Sweepers
1 made up from counting the pennies among the multiple cards I put in parenthesis (DRS, Scooze etc)

I think I've written enough for now, hope this all makes sense and feels like valued addition to the process.


TL;DR
- Ordered lists by their turn relevance and put more concrete definitions on categories based on why we put cards in our deck
- We should focus on how we can more consistently implement our game plan not on the end game

[jbone2016]

A scapefit player just took Ovinospring in Milano.

http://www.ovinotournament.com/legac...t-ovinospring/

Anyone knows if he is around ?

ScapeFireWish?

Is that what we should call it?

That list is pretty sweet looking.